BOGP4O
Darn it!! Forget the link,,,,,It don't work,,,even changing,,A and R,to lower case won't work.....But what I read,,it appears your right,,,on car's and trucks,the ring and pinion must mesh,,so I would believe,model train gearing,would be the same,for different ratio's..
Cheers,
Frank
BOGP40,
Check this out. It's for 1;1,but I'm sure,it's the same principle.
Answers.Reference.com/information/misc/how_to_calculate_gear_ratios
In regards to that various gearing of those early Protos (SDs and E-units using the 18:1 ratio). Which of the gears, axle or idlers or both are changed in the tooth numbering to gain this "low" speed ratio, I have not investigated this nor want to pull apart perfectly running truck to figure this out. Lower gears of 18:1 would/ should have more teeth on the axle and less on the idlers. Just adding teeth to a same sized diameter would change the tooth shape and affect gear mesh. I would understand it that both gears and possibly the worm "screw" configuration should all be altered for proper gear mesh.
Can someone clarify this. And if regearing to a more "normal" 14:1 to allow better running w/ other equipment what really needs to be changed, or is it even possible?
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I know for sure the 60024 is the replacement for the Proto Geeps - I have several packages of them. It's the axle gear for the 6-axle Athearn locos, so a pack is 6 of them, two packs does 3 Geeps. Those are the ones I've used in mine, all seem to run great. Since all of my Geeps are fromt he cracked gear era, I just swap them out with the 60024's when I put them in service, even if the original gears are still good. They WILL crack. Two of mine have many many hours of continuous running at club shows and they still purr like kittens.
Since most of the Proto mechanisms are essentially Athearn clones, the 60024's ought to work in other models as well, although more recent Walthers branded releases have had different gear ratios (plenty of complaints here, where the passenger units run too slow even at full throttle, and also do not run with the older Life Like releases of the same loco), so they may be different.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
J.,
For some reason,,,that #60024,is ringing a bell in my head,,,I recall looking up some,gear axle parts,before,on another thread some time ago and that # sticks...Give it a try,like Randy suggests..
Not surprising Athearn would say that, but you might want to at least give a pack of #60024 a try. Worst case, if you have any Proto Geeps, they DO work perfectly in those if they don't work in the E, and if yours don't have cracked gears now, they will.
Well, I've heard from all parties that I contacted for new gears or gear plus axles and wheels combos. Walther's, NWSL, Alliance Locomotive and Athearn. No dice, don't have the correct parts. Athearn told me that since they don't make Proto 2K locomotives they don't have parts for them, to contact Walther's... which I did.
Randy at Walther's said to keep an eye open for a used one at train shows etc. that had a bad motor, shell etc. that could be bought reasonably. That is probably the only way I'll obtain the gears.
Just thought I'd pass this along.
Jarrell
Thanks for the help, Frank. I'll find the replacements sooner or later.. :)
Yeah it was a little hard to try and count from the pick,not being able to see the other side of the gear..Well I guess,Athearn somehow or NWSL...Good Luck!!
The original gear has 11 teeth and the one's I purchased for replacement have 12. I just knew I counted wrong but after recounting about 6 or 7 times I get the same amount. The Athearn stock number on the replacements is ATH 40028 and the one noted earlier in this thread is 60024
I would give them a shot, as Randy suggested,using your old axles,,looks to me from the pic,,that they are both,,14,tooth gears..
Right. See photo below... the 'replacement's (on the left) I bought thinking they were all the same and the originals on the right. Note the different wheel size and axle ends. The Athearn replacement packaging says 40 inch and the best I can measure is showing the originals are about 36 inch. The gear on the 'replacement' looks a little larger also though I haven't measured it.
Since Walthers took over, they've used a bunch of different gear ratios on the Proto models, really annoying when trying to run an older run unit with a newer one. But I don;t know that thay changed the axle gears, or some fo the otehr intermediate gears, to change the overall ratio. The oldest P2K locos are outright Athearn BB clones, with a better motor (except that run of E's and PA's with the monster amp hog motor). The gears all LOOK the same. What the OP got was a set of Athearn wheels with gear - and the WHEELS were the wrong size. The 600024 Athearn part is JUST the gear, the stub axles from the P2K loco fit them. As long as the wheels are in good shape and not worn out, they can be reused with the repalcement gears. If the wheels are worn - new wheels are in order. The Athearn ones may not be right for all P2K models, but NWSL may have the correct ones.
I thought the OP or someone earlier in this thread said that the gear for the 6 wheel trucks was different than the 4 wheel? I've never had a problem with anything but the B-B trucks so I've never worked on one. I'd be kind of surprised if they were different since the older P2K's were Athearn clones and it seems highly unlikely that Athearn would vary from a proven mechanism and having the ability to mass produce common parts. When Walthers bought the line I recall they were changing some models to 14:1?? Gear ratio.These probably would be different? All of mine are the older style P2K versions( when they were only $60, or so)
rrinker Interesting. So far I haven't had issues getting Proto 2000 wheels in guage, but that's an interesting tool. Or idea if you have access to a mill. The AThearn part number they mention is the correct oen for repalcement gears - you reuse the Proto wheels so wheel diameter isn't an issue. As I put each of my Geeps into service, as part of tearing it down I repalce the gears with the AThearn ones, since the Protos WILL crack eventually. Since I open up the bottom of the truck to clean out the goopy factory grease anyway, I figured I'd put the replacement gears in now rather than wait. Two fo them now have well over 100 hours pulling a heavy train on the club layout and are still going strong. --Randy
Interesting. So far I haven't had issues getting Proto 2000 wheels in guage, but that's an interesting tool. Or idea if you have access to a mill.
The AThearn part number they mention is the correct oen for repalcement gears - you reuse the Proto wheels so wheel diameter isn't an issue. As I put each of my Geeps into service, as part of tearing it down I repalce the gears with the AThearn ones, since the Protos WILL crack eventually. Since I open up the bottom of the truck to clean out the goopy factory grease anyway, I figured I'd put the replacement gears in now rather than wait. Two fo them now have well over 100 hours pulling a heavy train on the club layout and are still going strong.
On the club layout (modular) is where I run this P2K E6. It, along with the passenger cars, will operate ok on my 22 inch r. home layout but it looks better to me on the bigger club layout.
thanks for the help, Randy.
zstripe J, If you havn't already,,check out NWSL,I know that they sell gears only for axle's and they seem to go by the hole size and how many teeth,are on the gear..Probably worth checking that out.. Cheers, Frank
J,
If you havn't already,,check out NWSL,I know that they sell gears only for axle's and they seem to go by the hole size and how many teeth,are on the gear..Probably worth checking that out..
Frank, maybe if I drop them an email they can let me know if they carry the right size.
Thanks,
Hergy Here's the tool you need. I have about 10 or 12 older P2K Locos with cracked gears and as usual I kept putting repairs off hoping that the train fairy would magically fix my Locos. Well, the magic fix came in the form of this tool: http://www.alliancelocomotiveproducts.com/ I'm sure this would work on any axle even from a 6 wheel truck. All of my problems were with 4 wheel trucks. I also got a couple dozen gears. If you can find a source for the 6 axle gear types I would highly recommend this fixture, installs the gear centered and the wheels in gage. Edited to make link clickable.
Here's the tool you need. I have about 10 or 12 older P2K Locos with cracked gears and as usual I kept putting repairs off hoping that the train fairy would magically fix my Locos. Well, the magic fix came in the form of this tool:
http://www.alliancelocomotiveproducts.com/
I'm sure this would work on any axle even from a 6 wheel truck. All of my problems were with 4 wheel trucks. I also got a couple dozen gears. If you can find a source for the 6 axle gear types I would highly recommend this fixture, installs the gear centered and the wheels in gage.
Edited to make link clickable.
Neat! Thanks Hergy! I see they sell gears also. Thanks.
bogp40 Jarrell, simply amazing. These P2Ks generally have very little troubles at all. Even rare, at best, for even one problem- you seem to have everything that could ever be wrong w/ a truck happen all at once. BTW, forget about trying to glue a crack in that plastic, the expansion of assy of the axle will cause it to fail or still not mesh properly. Tried it w/ epoxy once for a fix- wouldn't work....
Jarrell, simply amazing. These P2Ks generally have very little troubles at all. Even rare, at best, for even one problem- you seem to have everything that could ever be wrong w/ a truck happen all at once.
BTW, forget about trying to glue a crack in that plastic, the expansion of assy of the axle will cause it to fail or still not mesh properly. Tried it w/ epoxy once for a fix- wouldn't work....
Thanks Bob. No... I kinda gave up on the glue idea before I even tried. The more I thought about it the more I knew it wouldn't hold for long.
zstripe J., One thing,I also saw when looking at the pic's you provided,,was the fact that the gears,the shaft,is longer on one side than the other,,I'm assuming that they have to be oriented all the same in the truck...Just I Thought... Cheers, Frank Frank, yes you'd definitely need to use an NMRA gauge to get everything back in sync. The problem I'm having now is locating replacement parts. Athearn is listing only wheel/gear assemblies that have 40" and 42" wheels. I have some of the ones with 40" and I thought at first I could take the larger wheels off the gears and just use the gears with my wheels. Well, as luck would have it the gear is also larger than my 'original' gears so they probably wouldn't mesh correctly and the bottom cover plates would no longer fit either. That's what Athearn has on their website, maybe they have some 36" that aren't listed. Or maybe Walther's has some laying around.. who knows. Anyway the project comes to a halt until the parts are found. It's even crossed my mind to try and glue the crack back together but I don't think it would hold. I'll bet modeler's have already tried that! Jarrell
One thing,I also saw when looking at the pic's you provided,,was the fact that the gears,the shaft,is longer on one side than the other,,I'm assuming that they have to be oriented all the same in the truck...Just I Thought...
Frank, yes you'd definitely need to use an NMRA gauge to get everything back in sync. The problem I'm having now is locating replacement parts. Athearn is listing only wheel/gear assemblies that have 40" and 42" wheels. I have some of the ones with 40" and I thought at first I could take the larger wheels off the gears and just use the gears with my wheels. Well, as luck would have it the gear is also larger than my 'original' gears so they probably wouldn't mesh correctly and the bottom cover plates would no longer fit either. That's what Athearn has on their website, maybe they have some 36" that aren't listed. Or maybe Walther's has some laying around.. who knows.
Anyway the project comes to a halt until the parts are found. It's even crossed my mind to try and glue the crack back together but I don't think it would hold. I'll bet modeler's have already tried that!
Randy, so far I've got two that's cracked. I haven't yet taken the cover off the other axles. I'll bet they're cracked also.
J.
If there's a crack along the axle on the gear - that one's shot. To adjust them you should hold them by the wheels and twist and push or pull.
Joe, I should've seen those problems right off the bat... but, I didn't. I've learned don't take anything for granted in dealing with these things, that the problem you see may be caused by a problem you're not seeing, even when it's right there in front of you. The side frames being disengaged from the trucks, I probably did that myself a few years ago when trying to find the original problem, got involved in something else, put it away and forgot about it. Anyway, thanks to all for trying to help and for your suggestions!
I still can't figure out what these 40 inch wheels that I bought are supposed to go on. Think I'll drop an email to Athearn...
Lol... Frank, I tink that's a good idea!
Jarrell:
Glad to hear that you have identified the gremlins in your trucks. Thanks for sharing your experiences and your photos are really of value for someone with similar problems. It's always interesting how a simple "it's a cracked gear" can turn into the multiple issues you found.
Joe