ChadLRyan The Government in the USA is looking to Tax everyone on On-Line Purchases as well.I hope they also instinstute a Breathing Panting Tax, if I get breathing challenged while push mowing my own lawn.... - due to city 'recommendations....' Whatever...I think we need to define a new word that is as similar as "Hypcrisisy" that could be applied to those situations that are a total hypcrisisy, such as shipping charges & taxes...
The Government in the USA is looking to Tax everyone on On-Line Purchases as well.I hope they also instinstute a Breathing Panting Tax, if I get breathing challenged while push mowing my own lawn.... - due to city 'recommendations....' Whatever...I think we need to define a new word that is as similar as "Hypcrisisy" that could be applied to those situations that are a total hypcrisisy, such as shipping charges & taxes...
I ALREADY PAY for some of the air I breathe!!!!
I AM breathing challenged!
I have an Oxygen concentrator for my asthma/sleep apnea as my pulse-ox{ygen level} drops to 78 at night whilest sleeping, so I PAY FOR AIR!
I don't think they tax it yet as durable medical equipment, but there is a monthly fee for the machine! AND I pay for the electricity to run it! THAT there is taxes galore on!
so you just wait...
Some cities now charge a "water runoff fee" for the water that runs off your roof {based on sq footage} into the city's sewers to be processed, I'LL JUST BET they don't give a "drought break" on that fee when there IS no runnoff due to no rain!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Don't fret over it OP, I have an LHS but their primary sales aren't trains. When it comes down to it I have to buy stuff online. It would be nice if my LHS carried at least rail cars of local RR's instead of obscure eastern roads. If I didn't shop online I'd never have the stuff that fits my railroading needs.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
BATMANChina does not hold the mortgage on Canada and if I have to pay more on MRR items to keep it that way, so be it.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
One last bit about why online shopping has become my 'go-to' method: here in Canada, while living in Toronto, the best 'trains-only' LHS, Georges, moved to a suburb about 15 miles away to escape Toronto's crushing commercial real estate taxes.
This only left John's Hobbies, which didn't carry Rapido. So if I wanted to shop at Georges, since I don't drive, this meant using two transit systems, $3 + $3, each way. So I had to add $12 to every purchase. And then our 13% sales/GST taxes...but I'd then look at someone on eBay selling what I wanted, with no tax & a shipping charge of maybe $20, right to my door...not a hard decision...
Our nearest LHS now from Brantford, Ontario is 7 miles away in Paris, or a slightly larger one in Dundas, 15 miles. They'll both order anything I want, but how do I know until I see it.?..eBay fills that void nicely.
Hello everyone! I'm not going to get into the politics of each carriers profit or expenses. The best thing to do is shop around. Some hobby retailers offer reward programs,the more you spend, the more you save! I used to be into the RC hobby( left because it's a huge never ending money pit, high maintenance hobby }. I spent a lot of money at Tower Hobbies, I paid $60 for a super saver club membership and the $60 paid for its self on the first order. I had to spend a certain amount but was worth it. It only cost me $13 to have a $300 order shipped me over night and delivered on Saturday Via UPS. The thing is to compile a list and place a big order instead of a bunch of little orders here and there. Maybe I am off topic, but hey it's The 4th of July and I am enjoying my beer!!!
Happy 4th!!!!!!!
I live close to the border and have looked at hobby shops "down south" but the prices are almost identical to those in Canada and it's in USD so for me it wasn't a deal. I know others have said items are cheaper in the states but I haven't really found that in modelling.
I have purchased through Amazon for one off and hard to find items and have a US postal box where we only pay when it's used. We are down every two weeks or so usually so we can pick our items up at our "US address" and then bring it home with us.
For those further away from the border this is not an option so the delivery and shipping issues are harder on them.
If you cannot fix it with a hammer;
You have an electrical problem!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL13% tax? I seem to recall that down here we revolted from a King over stuff like that, and to be honest maybe we should again. But I can tell you 13% would cause a revolution for sure down here.
The main reason Shops in Canada can't compete with those in the U.S. is the import duty is around 12% on Chinese made products in to Canada, while it is 3% in the U.S. This eats up most of any discount that Canadian shops can offer.
The two countries are run quite differently in many ways. It is up to the populations of each to determine the paths they choose.
With all do respect Sheldon, you seem to beat your chest on tax rates while ignoring your national debt. China does not hold the mortgage on Canada and if I have to pay more on MRR items to keep it that way, so be it.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
This hits me hard. As MBKlein would take like almost 50% of my purchases, (Stuff I can't get in Australia).
Modelling HO Scale with a focus on the West and Midwest USA
OP,
That is horrible....The Government in the USA is looking to Tax everyone on On-Line Purchases as well.I hope they also instinstute a Breathing Panting Tax, if I get breathing challenged while push mowing my own lawn.... - due to city 'recommendations....' Whatever...I think we need to define a new word that is as similar as "Hypcrisisy" that could be applied to those situations that are a total hypcrisisy, such as shipping charges & taxes...Just a thought & an opinion...PS: I already ust Lost my favorite model paint Manufacture this month, what else can I possibly endure??????
BRAKIE don7 am talking about inventory that is 10 to 15 years old and is being offered at its full MRSP. Time to have a sale I think, I knew of a shop that had full MSRP stock dating back to the early 90s and when he retired due to health reason another guy took over,closed the store and became e-bay store..
don7 am talking about inventory that is 10 to 15 years old and is being offered at its full MRSP. Time to have a sale I think,
am talking about inventory that is 10 to 15 years old and is being offered at its full MRSP.
Time to have a sale I think,
I knew of a shop that had full MSRP stock dating back to the early 90s and when he retired due to health reason another guy took over,closed the store and became e-bay store..
And, I'll bet he did well. And while he may not have charged retail prices, I bet he did not give it away either.
Sheldon
don7 ATLANTIC CENTRAL don7 Have had issues with this retailer, Note the amount of old stock they have, most retailers with stock that old have marked it down in an effort to get rid of it, and the rest of their inventory have prices that are high to say the least, plus US dollars. I can shop here or i could shop online at Modeltrainstuff and pay the shipping and taxes and save a substantial amount. Gee, I just can't decide what I should do. Don, Interesting view, that retailers should only carry what just fell off the boat last week and should blow the rest out cheap? That's a great view that now has us in the world of preorders and no inventory on store shelves. You don't know, they might be doing qute well with that "old invenetory". What you call old, might be just what someone else is looking for. And maybe, just maybe, they were not in the hobby or in the market for that product when it was "hot and new". Sure, a successful retailers needs to have what is new, but depth of inventory is ALWAYS what has set the great shops apart from the rest. I don't know anything about them, but I would never judge them negatively because they are not closeout kings. Sheldon I am talking about inventory that is 10 to 15 years old and is being offered at its full MRSP. Time to have a sale I think, but then again to listen to you they should just sit on it.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL don7 Have had issues with this retailer, Note the amount of old stock they have, most retailers with stock that old have marked it down in an effort to get rid of it, and the rest of their inventory have prices that are high to say the least, plus US dollars. I can shop here or i could shop online at Modeltrainstuff and pay the shipping and taxes and save a substantial amount. Gee, I just can't decide what I should do. Don, Interesting view, that retailers should only carry what just fell off the boat last week and should blow the rest out cheap? That's a great view that now has us in the world of preorders and no inventory on store shelves. You don't know, they might be doing qute well with that "old invenetory". What you call old, might be just what someone else is looking for. And maybe, just maybe, they were not in the hobby or in the market for that product when it was "hot and new". Sure, a successful retailers needs to have what is new, but depth of inventory is ALWAYS what has set the great shops apart from the rest. I don't know anything about them, but I would never judge them negatively because they are not closeout kings. Sheldon
don7 Have had issues with this retailer, Note the amount of old stock they have, most retailers with stock that old have marked it down in an effort to get rid of it, and the rest of their inventory have prices that are high to say the least, plus US dollars. I can shop here or i could shop online at Modeltrainstuff and pay the shipping and taxes and save a substantial amount. Gee, I just can't decide what I should do.
Have had issues with this retailer,
Note the amount of old stock they have, most retailers with stock that old have marked it down in an effort to get rid of it, and the rest of their inventory have prices that are high to say the least, plus US dollars.
I can shop here or i could shop online at Modeltrainstuff and pay the shipping and taxes and save a substantial amount.
Gee, I just can't decide what I should do.
Don, Interesting view, that retailers should only carry what just fell off the boat last week and should blow the rest out cheap?
That's a great view that now has us in the world of preorders and no inventory on store shelves.
You don't know, they might be doing qute well with that "old invenetory". What you call old, might be just what someone else is looking for. And maybe, just maybe, they were not in the hobby or in the market for that product when it was "hot and new".
Sure, a successful retailers needs to have what is new, but depth of inventory is ALWAYS what has set the great shops apart from the rest.
I don't know anything about them, but I would never judge them negatively because they are not closeout kings.
I am talking about inventory that is 10 to 15 years old and is being offered at its full MRSP.
Time to have a sale I think, but then again to listen to you they should just sit on it.
Don,
Putting price aside for a minute, and also assuming for a minute this same shop also has a good inventory of current items, why would it be bad to keep those items if they are no longer made or available in other forms from other manufacturers?
I don't just "collect" current production model trains, I'm building a model railroad with a specific theme, era and setting. I did not always have the "opportunity or resources" to buy every piece that I might have wanted as it came along in the 46 years I have been at this hobby.
So I buy stuff that was made 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, or even longer, ALL THE TIME, when I find what I want.
I ran a train department in a hobby shop for many years, many products are "timeless" in their appeal. Maybe they don't sell like hot cakes on Sunday, but a good shop should have depth of inventory.
By your thinking, if all I sell is left hand turnouts, I should not stock right handed ones?
And by the way, to someone like me who remembers Athearn "yellow" boxes, stuff made 10 years ago is "brand new".
So, if a shop is well funded, and inventory "total turnover in dollars" is were it should be, and products are still relevant to the hobby, then they should stay and make full profit when they do sell - and they will.
And the greater the depth of inventory, the more customers will know that this is the place to shop, and more traffic will mean more of that stuff will sell. It is a self fulfilling process - in either direction.
The shop that "only" has new releases, will become known for that, and loose that other sort of business.
As for full MSRP, I've been down that road on several posts already - reread them.
don7Time to have a sale I think, but then again to listen to you they should just sit on it.
I think Fonzie used to say that.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Dr Gonzo ATLANTIC CENTRAL 13% tax? I seem to recall that down here we revolted from a King over stuff like that, and to be honest maybe we should again. But I can tell you 13% would cause a revolution for sure down here. Sheldon My family left New England (okay, they were removed) in 1776 and have enjoyed Canada ever since.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL 13% tax? I seem to recall that down here we revolted from a King over stuff like that, and to be honest maybe we should again. But I can tell you 13% would cause a revolution for sure down here. Sheldon
13% tax? I seem to recall that down here we revolted from a King over stuff like that, and to be honest maybe we should again. But I can tell you 13% would cause a revolution for sure down here.
My family left New England (okay, they were removed) in 1776 and have enjoyed Canada ever since.
Respectfully, this is going in a direction we need not go on this forum. As I explained earlier in this thread to the OP, I live where I live as a result of fate and choice. I can buy all the model trains I want at competitive prices and with good access.
As for the issues of taxes and politics which don't belong on here, I did not bring it up, it was brought up as part of the "cost" of shopping in Canada.
To the topic of politics and taxes, there is a lot going on here in my own country that I am not in favor of (especially northeast of the Hudson River), but no other country appears better based on my personal beliefs and values. I will not discuss this further, having been admonished by the moderators on here for doing so in the past.
Canada must be just wonderful - except for not being able to by model trains at discount prices - I'll stay here thank you.
Two seasons in my Canada, Modelling and Paintball.
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL 13% tax? I seem to recall that down here we revolted from a King over stuff like that, and to be honest maybe we should again. But I can tell you 13% would cause a revolution for sure down here. Sheldon You're spoiled living in Maryland. Some places in the U.S. go over 11% combined state and local sales tax - more for meals. Paul
You're spoiled living in Maryland. Some places in the U.S. go over 11% combined state and local sales tax - more for meals.
Paul
I don't know about that, we just pay it in other ways. State sales tax here is 6%, there are no local sales taxes.
But Income taxes and property taxes are high enough.
Sheldon:
The 13% is a blend of the Federal Goods and Services Tax and the Provincial sales tax. Our income taxes were lowered when the GST kicked in to compensate, and stores reduced their prices by about 8% to reflect the fact that the Federal Sales Tax had been revoked (at 13.5%)
When Ontario decided to blend the sales tax with the GST, income taxes were reduced again. Since it is a consumption tax, you pay more when you consume more. If you are "low income", you get a rebate as well.
That is about the only tax you pay, as anything made in the US is duty free (Free Trade). Most hobby supplies are exempt as well.
Problem is finding a hobby shop in the US where you are.
DWPRS-11 Fairly easy, and I have done it many times. Canada just increased it's duty-free limit to $800 per person as long as you are gone for 48 hours or more. So, if me and the wife went on a strictly model train purchase trip, we could bring back a total of $1600 of model trains with use without paying duty and taxes on them. I'm also lucky that I live in a city that is close to the American border. A family that runs the store just across the border allows you to use their store address as your shipping address, and will keep your package for about 40 days and will only charge you a $4 handling fee when you pick it up. So have your parcel arriving a few days before you have a trip planned and bingo. Stay your 48 hours and it's duty and tax free. I do have a local LHS, and while he is excellent, (I support him with a lot of purchases) and will bring in anything your want as long as it's from Horizon Hobbies, it does have a drawback. I wanted a new release Kato starter set with the Metra F40. MB Klein has it for $189.99 plus shipping. Horizon also offers it, but they have it priced at the MSRP of $300.00. Add in the 13% tax we pay in Ontario and bang a very costly purchase if I went through him. So, if I need something like that. I just wait till our next planned trip, order it from MB Klein and include it in our total when we cross the border back into Canada.
Fairly easy, and I have done it many times. Canada just increased it's duty-free limit to $800 per person as long as you are gone for 48 hours or more. So, if me and the wife went on a strictly model train purchase trip, we could bring back a total of $1600 of model trains with use without paying duty and taxes on them.
I'm also lucky that I live in a city that is close to the American border. A family that runs the store just across the border allows you to use their store address as your shipping address, and will keep your package for about 40 days and will only charge you a $4 handling fee when you pick it up. So have your parcel arriving a few days before you have a trip planned and bingo. Stay your 48 hours and it's duty and tax free.
I do have a local LHS, and while he is excellent, (I support him with a lot of purchases) and will bring in anything your want as long as it's from Horizon Hobbies, it does have a drawback. I wanted a new release Kato starter set with the Metra F40. MB Klein has it for $189.99 plus shipping. Horizon also offers it, but they have it priced at the MSRP of $300.00. Add in the 13% tax we pay in Ontario and bang a very costly purchase if I went through him.
So, if I need something like that. I just wait till our next planned trip, order it from MB Klein and include it in our total when we cross the border back into Canada.
Thanks for the info.
I'm also lucky that I live in a city that is close to the American border. A family that runs the store just across the border allows you to use their store address as your shipping address, and will keep your package for about 40 days and will only charge you a $4 handling fee when you pick it up. So have your parcel arriving a few days before you have a trip planned and bingo. Stay your 48 hours and it's duty and tax free. (You also pay the US shipping rate, so it even saves you more)
Christopher
Modelling Amtrak in N Scale
So not being a world traveler, I have a question for our Canadian friends.
If you make trip to the US, like a vacation, and buy model trains while you are here, how much hassle is it to take them home?
I think you also have to look at the population differences between the U.S. and Canada. The U.S. has a population of roughly 314 million. Canada's population is roughly 34 million. Stands to reason that Canada is a much smaller and more fragmented model railroad market and is not as likely to have many high volume, large discount hobby retailers, if any at all.
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
ATLANTIC CENTRAL My point was simply to explain to the unwashed how the deep discount thing works. There are a great many people in the world who buy into the myth that "everything" can be had cheaper if you buy "more". Not so, there is a bottom price and there is a reason some can offer those low prices. I admitted I have no idea of the size or nature of the Canadian market for model trains, but there sure does seem to be a lot of you guys on this forum? And I have no knowledge of your governments business regulations, taxes, etc., you may well be right. Or, the business climate may just be such that no one feels any need/pressure to be the "discount king" of Canada. Truth is it really is not the best thing for the hobby here or there in my opinion. Stable fair prices and good supply would benefit the hobby and industry, not necessarily "rock bottom" prices - here and in Canada. But what do I know, I've just been at this for 46 years and once ran a train department in a hobby shop. Sheldon
My point was simply to explain to the unwashed how the deep discount thing works. There are a great many people in the world who buy into the myth that "everything" can be had cheaper if you buy "more". Not so, there is a bottom price and there is a reason some can offer those low prices.
I admitted I have no idea of the size or nature of the Canadian market for model trains, but there sure does seem to be a lot of you guys on this forum?
And I have no knowledge of your governments business regulations, taxes, etc., you may well be right.
Or, the business climate may just be such that no one feels any need/pressure to be the "discount king" of Canada.
Truth is it really is not the best thing for the hobby here or there in my opinion.
Stable fair prices and good supply would benefit the hobby and industry, not necessarily "rock bottom" prices - here and in Canada.
But what do I know, I've just been at this for 46 years and once ran a train department in a hobby shop.
Technically, it is possible, except the market is very fragmented. What sells in one area doesn't sell in another. Clothing is a real world example of that.
Living a a city of 1 million, we have only a few hobby shops that I am aware of. Toronto, with 2.5 million, probably has the same number, maybe less. In cities of that size, there are no well known 100% train shops. Montreal seems to do a little better in that.
There just are not big retailers of model railroad products out there, so they can't get the volumes, then you have to deal with customs and brokerage, which can quickly erase any savings. Then there is the freight costs. Nobody wants to tie up that kind of money in inventory to get the best price, on products for a small market, with limited appeal.
Then we get back to the problem of a very regional market, so what sells here may not sell well in another market.
hon30critter Sheldon: Like you said, you don't know much about Canada. What part of our market being only 10% of the US market do you not understand? We have many successful hobby retailers in Canada. Don't you think that if the mega/discount store concept would work here that some of them would be doing it? Dave
Like you said, you don't know much about Canada. What part of our market being only 10% of the US market do you not understand? We have many successful hobby retailers in Canada. Don't you think that if the mega/discount store concept would work here that some of them would be doing it?
Dave
Dave,
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
hon30critter Hi galaxy: I understand your point. We need to spend our hobby dollars here! However, even if all Canadian model railroaders decided to purchase everything through our LHSs the market would still only be about 10% of the size of that in the US. Without any expertise in hobby shop economics I would still say that the Canadian hobby shops would be hard pressed to generate the volumes that allow for large bulk purchases. In fact, the US only has a few large discount retailers. I'm guessing that there are less than 10 (please correct me if I am wrong). If you do the math, that suggests that the Canadian market being 10% of the American could barely support one large discount retailer, and that retailer would have to go way out on a limb to invest the dollars needed to support bulk purchasing. Simply put, unfortunately we just don't have the volume to support deep discounts. Personally, I have made the decision to purchase as much of my stuff as I can through a Canadian dealer (Canadian Express Line). And yes, there is no shortage of Canadians who love to complain about Canada Post's rates too. Dave
Hi galaxy:
I understand your point. We need to spend our hobby dollars here!
However, even if all Canadian model railroaders decided to purchase everything through our LHSs the market would still only be about 10% of the size of that in the US. Without any expertise in hobby shop economics I would still say that the Canadian hobby shops would be hard pressed to generate the volumes that allow for large bulk purchases. In fact, the US only has a few large discount retailers. I'm guessing that there are less than 10 (please correct me if I am wrong). If you do the math, that suggests that the Canadian market being 10% of the American could barely support one large discount retailer, and that retailer would have to go way out on a limb to invest the dollars needed to support bulk purchasing.
Simply put, unfortunately we just don't have the volume to support deep discounts.
Personally, I have made the decision to purchase as much of my stuff as I can through a Canadian dealer (Canadian Express Line).
And yes, there is no shortage of Canadians who love to complain about Canada Post's rates too.
I don't know much about Canada, but it seems to me that as fragmented as the US market is, someone in Canada could be running a "Trainworld" up there and making money.
The "deep discount" thing is done by being big enough to buy products direct from the manufacturer, and in some cases buying enough to get the lowest price level.
Example - Walthers is both a manufacturer and a distributor. Dealers who buy from them at distrubutor prices buy one or two each of items and buy both Walthers products and other brands at similar discounts from list price. Those discounts are not enough to allow much if any discounting and still cover any kind of store overhead.
But some dealers buy enough to get the Walthers products as if they were a distributor - the case lot price - those are dealers who can discount Walthers products a lot. But no dealer is buying Bowser, or Atlas, or Bachmann, or Intermountain from Walthers and selling it real cheap - Walthers does not get those lines cheap enough to sell them as low as they can sell thier own products to volume customers.
To get the best price on those other lines you need to be able to buy enough directly from those manufacturers - the price Walthers gets as a distributor for them.
The volume price cuts out the middle man, and gives the dealer the margin needed to discount and still make money.
Ever since Horizon bought Athearn, all Athearn is sold directly through Horizon, who is also a manufacturer and a distributor. BUT, Athearn is only sold by Horizon - there is no separate "dealer" price and "distributor" price. Sure, the really big customers likely get a few extra percentage points off, but not the 25% or 30% difference with other lines. Pretty much one price for all. And Horizon only sells to legit businesses, no week end, basement, train show, part time, dealers.
This is why Athearn prices have stablized and supply is steady - even with a China glitch here and there.
Bachmann sells to lots of dealers direct. I'm not sure what their minimum terms are, but near me there is one shop with TONS of Bachmann at the best prices anywhere - better than Trainworld or any website I have ever seen, including Ebay. And there are always big stacks of cases with shipping labels direct from Bachmann - not from any "distributor". And that guy never "blows out" old stock. He puts really good prices on stuff the day it comes in the door - and that is price - no matter how long it sits there.
More and more manufacturers are going to direct distribution - that is selling directly to any size retailer - and this will shrink discounts from "list price", but will allow manufacturers to hold retail prices down - even as the Yuan rises against the Dollar. They are effectively cutting out the middle man permanently.
I have purposely not quaoted and specific price levels as people inside the industry have asked me not via private message when these sorts of topics have been discussed before. But I assure you, no one is buying this stuff for 10% of the retail price and getting rich selling it you for for 60% of the retail price.
In fact, anyone with the deep discounts, more than 35% off, is not making all that much no matter how they are buying the stuff.
But it would seem to me that someone in Canada could or should be in the mega train store web site mail order business and do well.
Personally, I love to find a hobby shop with old inventory. A couple of my favortie shops (sadly now gone several years) used to have lots of old stuff. They never marked up the price either. It was MSRP, but if it was 10 years old the price was 10 years old as well.
I was at a train show a couple of years back and one dealer had some SHS scale trucks marked $6.00 and some marked $9.00. I pointed this out to him since I was buying some and thought maybe he had made a mistake on the cheap ones since current retail was $9.00. He said no, he put the retail price on them when he got them and never changed it - a small break for his customers. Needless to say I bought him out of the $6.00 ones.
Of course I've been in a couple of shops that think their old stuff is some rare collectors item and they have changed the price to above current retail for comparable products.
Sadly, it's getting harder and harder to find a well stocked hobby shop - or even a poorly stocked one. Remember them well and tell your grandkids about the days when hobby shops abounded throughout the country.