LIONS do not have rivets, well at least not since the 1948 vintage cars. All are welded now, and you could count the welds, but you would need a scuba suite for that since all of the carbon steel cars have now been reefed.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
BroadwayLionI will go and ask the mudchicken his opinion on this.
LION did ask Mudchicken about this. Mudchicken posts on the "Trains" General Discussion forum and works in the track and MOW departments.
LION will accept his words as facts:
Switch is the moving part of the turnout (Usually 16'-6" switch points with a heel block and plates going forward to the point of switch/ turnout plus the headblock ties and switch stand)
Turnout is the entire package/ system, everything that sits on top of the long ties, including the frog, stock rails and switch.
Trainmen/operating people have a warped colloquialism for switch that starts at the switch stand and ends at the clearance point. (their little world)
You are still welcome to your opinions, if you still want them.ROAR
ROAR
Stan,#8 switches(turnouts) are the creame..I wish I could use 'em on my ISL instead of #4s..
Here's a handlaid size 14 crossover on the club's layout-upper right top...Not the best shot but,if interested I'll take a better picture Sunday.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Right about the various terms. Imagine a guy working for the PRR where the cabooses are called cabins who formerly worked for the C&O where the towers were known as cabins! We called them hacks on this part of the B&O. I would suspect that the term turnout as opposed to switch in the engineering department had to do with the same reasoning as mentioned before in regards to model RRing, a switch was an electrical device. Recently we started to replace all of our mainline switches with number 8 turnouts, and moved the number 6's to the yard and industrial sidings. The number 8's are smooth. All recent track work has been tested with our BLI Pennsy J1. If she can run cleanly through the improvements, everything else will as well.
-Stan
Stan,On the PRR we had "cabins" on the C&O "hacks or shacks..We used engines,the shop boys called 'em "motors".The switch was a "turnout" to the boys in engineering,some MOW gang foremen and some ARFE.
Now,I highly suspect if somebody called a engineer a "hogger" that person would probably be picking their self up off the ground.
Brakie, ya got me! Of course, when I was a Brakeman, Conductor, Engineer, a switch was the correct name, and the caboose was a hack, and it wasn't a locomotive, it was an engine. The point I was making was that it wasn't a model RR term. I doubt there were any model Railroaders in the BR&P engineering department in 1914.
Its funny that this switch /turnout discussion gets argued at least once a year on the forums, but I have never heard a similar discussion on the real railroad. I think modelers are way more concerned about the terminology than the real railroads. The real railroad overlap the terms too.
Here's the UP's industrial development pages with pdf's using switch and turnout in multiple ways:
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/operations/specs/track/index.shtml
If you took Lion's drawing of a turnout , built it 1:1 and loaded it on a gon, it would be a panel switch. However the switch is just the moving parts if you order a switch from the stores department. A lot of railroads apply a speed restriction through the turnout, which is also the curved track beyond the frog.
A whole lotta grey here.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
LION understands interlocking machine! Him built one for his railroad.
OK, *I* have always called the whole thing a switch, but different crafts have different ideas on nomenclature. I will go and ask the mudchicken his opinion on this.
BroadwayLion That is a print of the TURNOUT. The SWITCH is at the far left of the drawing, almost off the page (which is not a complete page). When you climb off of your caboose, you are throwing the SWITCH, that is the two points at the far left of the turnout. ROAR
That is a print of the TURNOUT.
The SWITCH is at the far left of the drawing, almost off the page (which is not a complete page).
When you climb off of your caboose, you are throwing the SWITCH, that is the two points at the far left of the turnout.
Maybe in Lion's kingdom..The good lion may not understand to the operating crafts the whole 9 yards is a switch.
Does the good lion know that we checked the switch points of the switch to ensure the points was indeed closed for our move?
Does the good lion know that there was once a switch tenders job on all railroads? Does the good lion know that the interlock towerman pulled levels that threw switches?
This is why operating crafts calls them switches..Its part of the job description.
Now does the good lion understand?
Stan,You do know that is a engineering department plan correct? That's not the final solution to the age old switch/turnout discussion.
I throw hundreds of switches as a brakeman never a turnout.
In plain railroad speak that was commonly used when I was a brakeman.
Larry,I will make the cut, stop the train after it passes Patton's switch,then unlock and open the switch..Bill will get the derail so,watch for his back up signal..You standby the switch and we'll make the setout.
After the work.
Joe,I lined and locked the Patton's switch for the main.
Joe(our conductor) Ok..
We knew exactly what we was talking about and everybody was clear on his assignment...
Why did I stand by the switch?
My job was to throw the switch for our moves in picking up a empty boxcar and setting out a loaded boxcar.
This small step saved track time..
-------------------------------------------------
cuyama,Like I said I personally never seen "turnout" used in a ETT while I was braking..I have no doubts other railroads may have used "turnout"..
After hearing that it was a model Railroader's term, I had to find my Grandfather's BR&P book of standards and see what they called them. Here you go:
Some of the "Basics" articles on the NMRA site may be of interest to you:
http://nmra.org/beginner/track.html
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
In the 1:1 as in the 1:87 the "TURNOUT" is the whole thing, lead, tails, frogs and points.
In the 1:1 world the "SWITCH" comprises of two rail points, a throwbar, and perhaps the switch machine.
In the 1:87 world the "switch" is a toggle on your control panel.
In the 1:1 world the "LEVER" controls the position of the switch part of the turnout. Most levers have now been replaced with mouse clicks.
BRAKIETo the engineering department a switch is a turnout.
BRAKIEPersonally I never seen "turnout" used in a ETT
"Turnout" is less common in Employee Timetables (ETTs), but not unknown. I have a few examples.
One I have right at hand because of a project I am working on is from the ATSF Railway, Western Region, California Division, Timetable #3 effective Sunday January 15, 1989. The phrasing is similar to what you posted, but uses "turnout". Such as this special instruction on the Pasadena Subdivision:"Maximum speed permitted through turnout of other than main track switches 10 MPH, all main track turnouts and crossovers 15 MPH"
When we are designing and building layouts, we are functioning as the Engineering Department, so calling the thing a turnout is correct. But it is a mistake during an operating session (which I have made) to ask someone to "throw the west turnout". Only Godzilla can throw a turnout.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
To the engineering department a switch is a turnout..To the operating crafts its a switch even if the ETT calls it a "turnout".Personally I never seen "turnout" used in a ETT.I have seen terms like : Speed over the McGloverland Secondary switch restricted to 15 mph when switch is lined for McGloverland..
BTW.The term "lashup" is strckly railfan/modeler speak..The correct term is locomotive consist.
calvinjrI know a turnout put trains from 1 track too another, however it also avoids confusion with electrical signals. What electrical signals?
I think you may have been confused by the oft-repeated saying that the word "turnout" is used in modeling only to avoid confusion with the word "switch", which is often used in modeling to refer to an electrical switch like a toggle switch.
But as I posted above, real-life railroads use both terms, "switch" usually referring specifically to the moving parts.
Signalling is a completely different issue, as others have noted.
CTValleyRRIn prototype (that is, real railroad) terms, those things that allow a train to move from one set of tracks to another is called a switch
I have dozens of prototype (real-life) documents -- from many different railroads, eras, and locales -- which use the term "turnout", including employee timetables, track charts, etc. The term is used to refer to the entire assembly, the moving parts of which are called the "switch". Pretty much the same as we use the term in designing and building layouts.
So real railroads use both terms: "turnout" and "switch".
The proper engineering term for the appliance that routes a train through a junction of rails where the train has a choice of routes is called a turnout. As stated earlier, we avoid confusion with electrical switches and rail turnouts by refering them to the proper name in the hobby. However, in the real world, the part of the turnout that moves, including the throwbar, is called the switch. That is, the two points rails and the throwbar, comprise the switch.
Crandell
calvinjr I know a turnout put trains from 1 track too another, however it also avoids confusion with electrical signals. What electrical signals?
I know a turnout put trains from 1 track too another, however it also avoids confusion with electrical signals. What electrical signals?
In electricity it is common to call one side of an electrical circuit + and the other -. Whether its DCC or DC, one rail is + and the other is - . At a switch or turnout, the rails come together so unless there are gaps in the rails + will touch - and the electrical system will short out.
Read a basic model railroad electrical manual to find out more details.
And turnouts are referred by numbers. EXAMPLE #6 TURNOUT spreads 1 unit, of each six units of travel measured from point of the frog??? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN IN LAYMEN TERMS?
The switch number means that the diverging route ( the side that is going away from the straight route) goes way 1 unit for every X units of the switch number. So if you pick a spot and measure out 6 units then 1 unit over and draw a line through those two points that will be the angle that a #6 switch has with two tracks. When you plan your layout you have to keep the switch numbers in mind since they determine how much space it takes to go from one track to another. For example If you are using track on 2" centers and have a # 4 crossover the track centers will cross 8" apart while if you are using #6 switches they will cross 12 inches apart.
The frog number determines how many switches you can fit in a running distance. If I have a space 4 feet long and use 2" track spacing, I can have a switching ladder with 6 tracks using #4 switches (#4x2"x6 tracks=48) while I can have only 4 tracks if I use #6 switches (#6x2"x4tracks=48).
CTValleyRRIn prototype (that is, real railroad) terms, those things that allow a train to move from one set of tracks to another is called a switch.
Not always.
Certain departments called them turnouts too. I was going through the RF&P files that the Alexandria VA library has in its collection and came across a work order to replace a turnout. Explicitly called it one. Also told me how much it cost to replace a #16 turnout in the 1970s.
Calvinjr,
The term turnout is used in model railroading switch to avoid confusion with an electrical switch.
The turnout numbers indicate how sharply one track diverges from another. If a foot away from the frog the diverging track is 3" away from the straight track, the turnout is a #4 (the ratio of 3" to 12" is the same as 1" to 4"). If one foot away from the frog the diverging track is 2" from the straight track the turnout is a #6 (2:6 equals 1:6).
Hope this helps.
What you are hearing about electrical signals, regarding turnouts, probably means the V in the turnout, where the two rails come together, on each rail, need to be isolated. Thus the term Insulated frogs, or the need to eliminate a short when the switch is thrown in the diverging route track position.
As far as the numbers. That refers to the diverging route radius. The smaller the number, smaller the diverging route radius. The larger the number, the larger the diverging route radius.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
I know a turnout put trains from 1 track too another, however it also avoids confusion with electrical signals. What electrical signals? And turnouts are referred by numbers. EXAMPLE #6 TURNOUT spreads 1 unit, of each six units of travel measured from point of the frog??? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN IN LAYMEN TERMS?