Voyager Craft acrylic paints are fine for wood, but not so satisfactory for plastic or metal.
Craft acrylic paints are fine for wood, but not so satisfactory for plastic or metal.
I've never been super-pleased with it, but lots of people have had success with craft acrylics. You can thin them out decently enough.
Voyagermaking the classic paint lines no longer profitable enough for big corporations
It's just hard to believe that an item selling for $698 per gallon can't be profitable.
So, they do away with Floquil, Polyscale and Pactra. Pactra now caters mostly to the R/C modelers & must surely be a staple paint of that hobby. I just cannot be convinced that regular Testors brand model paints have a bigger consumer market share than those other 3 brands. But, if they do it is surely not because Testors brand is a better quality product. It's got to be, as was stated in an earlier post, it's simply because of brand name recognition & ease of availability. (Budwieser Beer is the largest selling brand in the country, but is it because it's a better quality beer? Heck, No! Compared to many other brands, it's dishwater. It sells because it's the most heavily promoted & advertised brand.)
It's a sad situation & we see it more & more often now. There was once a time when if your product was not selling as well as the competition, you rolled up your sleeves, got to work & made your product better than the other guy's. But now, there's a new business ethic. If your product is not as good as your competition, you simply buy out the competition & then shut them down!
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
AVRNUT But now, there's a new business ethic. If your product is not as good as your competition, you simply buy out the competition & then shut them down! Carl
But now, there's a new business ethic. If your product is not as good as your competition, you simply buy out the competition & then shut them down!
Once again, nail hit squarely on the head!
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
maxman Voyagermaking the classic paint lines no longer profitable enough for big corporations It's just hard to believe that an item selling for $698 per gallon can't be profitable.
It does not matter how much you sell it for, or how much profit you make if you don't sell any.
With paint, which comes premixed in colors, the colors that sell in good volume not only have to pay the bills and the stock holders, they have to make enough money to pay for the production of the colors that don't sell well.
If you get rid of the colors that don't sell well, you will likely loose a large portion of your customer base, and undermine the sales of the colors that do sell well. Not a business model that the bean counters like at all.
Sheldon
I think the death of the smaller businesses in the model train hobby is a USA thing. Pick up a recent copy of Railway Modeler(UK based magazine) and thumb thru the ad's Boatloads of small companies, tons of kits, both white metal and etched brass locomotive and wagon(freight car) kits. And articles on actual modeling work. Not unpacking a RTR item and putting it on the layout. The Brits have perfected the card stock kits IMHO and I have seen layouts with nothing but preprinted card stock buildings that are weathered and rival the best layouts stateside. Its here in the USA and our "gotta have it now" attitude of the buying public at large that is driving this loss in the hobby. My current issue of Railway Modeler is much thicker than what Model Railroader and Model Rail Craftsman put together. Even Bachmann's offerings look better, better selection and detailing on thier UK line up than what we get. Its hard to place the blame on one single item, be it our lifestyle, lack of free time for hobbies, lack of expendable income for hobbies or a general failure of leadership in the hobby, loads of huge RTR layouts by those with huge pocketbooks and huge houses/basements and less of the common guy with a shelf switching layout, that enjoys kits, building and painting ect. The current state of the hobby in this country disgusts me, far to many high doller engines and high doller RTR freight cars, one of hte reasons I switched to UK OO scale using older equipment and cardstock kits. Gotta be rich to afford this new stuff anymore. Floquil, Polly Scale will be missed....RIP. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
AVRNUT So, they do away with Floquil, Polyscale and Pactra. Pactra now caters mostly to the R/C modelers & must surely be a staple paint of that hobby. Carl
So, they do away with Floquil, Polyscale and Pactra. Pactra now caters mostly to the R/C modelers & must surely be a staple paint of that hobby.
R/C Model Airplane folks don't build models, anymore either, so they have no need of paint to paint them with. Most of the people in that hobby buy Ready to Fly or Almost Ready to Fly stuff that is pretty much finished.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
AVRNUT buy out the competition & then shut them down!
buy out the competition & then shut them down!
Perfected by the "Robber Barons" a hundred years ago.
Nevertheless, the loss of railroad colors and paint by testors just opens the market up for somebody else. For example the true-color paint people posted earlier. For me, I have to buy just about everything railroad specific on line anyway.
Schuylkill and SusquehannaYeah, I agree that mixing paint colors is a pain. Car body colors are bad enough, but have you ever tried mixing weathering colors? A bad "rust" or "dirt" can really ruin the weathering on a model.
Well, there's very little paint which I use that isn't mixed, and that includes all weathering colours. It does, however, bother me that the colours for that mixing will no longer be available, at least as products with which I'm familiar.
I just now did a quick inventory of the paint I have on hand, and it includes:
27 Floquil24 Floquil thinned and/or mixed21 PollyScale14 PollyScale thinned and/or mixed17 Tamiya13 Humbrol12 SMP Accupaint12 various Testors9 PollyS4 miscellaneous brands
Floquil and PollyScale, the two I use most, retail locally for $6.99 and $5.99 respectively, and the former is very difficult to get at any price as it's not being brought into Canada due to our insane language laws. There are probably only five or six colours in both Floquil and PollyScale which I use regularly, and I'll stock-up on them as I find them.
Wayne
I switched to Tru-Color not long after they came out. A much superior product to anything I've ever used. An extremely fine ground pigment that covers quicker with less paint. I can get a solid white over black in just two coats .... try that with ANY other paint.
Their thinner is way too pricey, but I found regular acetone works equally well at a fraction of the cost.
The downside is that this is airbrush paint. Try as you might, you can't brush paint this stuff. It's ok for small touch-ups, but not much else.
When Floquil changed their formula to less hot (along with the dis-continuation of Diosol) I started experimenting with other brands. Floquils latest enamel formula was nothing like the original. Takes longer to dry than the old stuff and the flat finishes aren't dead flat like they used to be - not very kind for weathering.
There are a few colors that were unique to Floquil I used for weathering, but I'll easily reformulate and move on. As for railroad specific colors, Tru-color gets a big thumbs up from me for their extensive chices of railroad colors - with more coming all the time.
I think Testors dropped the ball on this one. They aren't going to force people into their Model Master line .... they are going to force people to other companies altogether and lose big time.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
This comes a shock, since I've always used Floquil or Polly Scale for 99% of my work, whether it be detailing, weathering or scenery.I guess its time to look at alternatives...
Modelling HO Scale with a focus on the West and Midwest USA
Trouble is, the average modeler doesn't buy a gallon or even a pint at a time.
The hobby shops near me stock Model Masters not Floquil if they stock paint at all.
Oh well I'll make do with other lines.
Enjoy
Paul
NP2626 AVRNUT But now, there's a new business ethic. If your product is not as good as your competition, you simply buy out the competition & then shut them down! Carl Once again, nail hit squarely on the head!
Isn't that what Illinois Central did to the GM&O...Not a new business tactic, robber barons have done this since the industrial revolution.
sh00fly NP2626 AVRNUT But now, there's a new business ethic. If your product is not as good as your competition, you simply buy out the competition & then shut them down! Carl Once again, nail hit squarely on the head! Isn't that what Illinois Central did to the GM&O...Not a new business tactic, robber barons have done this since the industrial revolution.
Yes, the robber barons were doing that sort of thing a hundred years ago or more. But that was on a huge scale: Railroads, Shipping lines etc. What has happened is the tactic has trickled down to even the comparatively small commodities & businesses (like hobby paint).
Back in the 1960's when I was living in Massachusetts, we had a local brand of Potato Chips called "Hunts" that was made right in the next town over from me. Extremely popular local brand & the largest selling one in the eastern Mass. area. At that Frito-Lay was in the early stages of nationwide expansion, but their products were not doing to well in that area. So, they came in & offered to buy Hunts, with the promise of great expansion, new jobs etc. Hunts sold out to them & almost immediately they shut the place down & that was the end of them.
Here in Maine, we had a brand of Ice Cream called Deering that was legendary. Best Ice Cream you ever tasted. Just about everybody bought it & they had the lion's share of the market here. You could only buy it within the state of Maine. One of the other, larger regional brands wanted in, but couldn't compete. Same thing. They offered to buy Deering with promises of great expansion, new jobs & how they would be so proud to be a part of the "Maine Community". They even blatantly promised that no one would lose jobs. They bought it & within one month, the new management litterally walked in the doors un-announced, told everyone to go home, shut the place down, dismantled all the equipment & shipped it off to another plant they owned in New York state. End of Deering Ice Cream!
We're just seeing this tactic more & more on every scale of business now. Consumer wants & loyalty means nothing to these corporations.
I see your point, Sheldon, but isn't it pretty much like that in almost any business? Not every item is going to be a top seller in a company's portfolio, whether it's a size of shoe, flavor of drink, type of air filter, etc. At some point, though, wouldn't a bean counter have to come to that realization and be realistic about the sales if each item? Or is that expecting too much?
Jim
What will be, will be! Let the "Titans of Industry" make their decisions based on what ever measure they see fit!
I hate the fact that this is happening; but, I don't see what we can do about it, other than find other sources of good products to use. I have for the most part moved away from solvent based paint. I do not spray anything, other than Dull Cote, when I need it, which is less and less, having determined processes where it is not needed. I will buy Floquil and Polly S, when I find it, as it becomes less and less available.
However, there are products which I also use that you can try and may be happy with:
http://www.humbrol.com (Humbrol uses small paint cans, which seal very tightly and I've found this to be a better way to store paints. Humbrol has a line of acrylic Railroad colors).
http://www.weavermodels.com (Weaver makes Scalecoat paints, a product that may be a direct replacement for Floquil and makes products for both metal and plastic)
http://www.plaidonline.com/delta-ceramcoat-acrylic-paint (I am using this companies acrylic paints more and more for everything on my model railroad, it is a great product and although they don't make railroad specific colors, it's easy enough to find close matches.
Certainly, there are others, let's hear about them here!
So, continue to lament the loss of two superior products! However, there are other products available which can drop right in and fill the void left by some executive's stupid decision! You can certainly boycott Testors products, if you like.
.
NP2626That is an interesting question Rich! Why indeed? If I were Testors, I'd drop their line of crappy little bottle paints and Latch onto Floquil as the company's favored product line! Howeva, like Forrest always says: "Stupid is as stupid does".
Be this as it may, one must look at the overall business model. Floquil products are made in a different factory, with different people, using different equipment. My understanding, such as it is, is that they grind a much finer pigment.
But Rust-Olem who owns Testor's wants to consolidate offices, equipment, people and shipping in one location. Close buildings and lay off people they do not need.
LION would think that they would put a second rate paint in the Floquil bottles and call it Floquil. Apparently they have resisted this temptation.
LION thinks not much of their decision, him thinks they should take a page from soda pop and cereal makers, and want to put as many bottles as possible on the dealer's shelves.
Still, if LHSs are a vanishing bread, then products sold there must also vanish. Of course it would be easier for a manufacturer, in this day in age, to ship retail from a central location via internet sales. It is a new model that must be explored.
Make a Website called "Hobby Shop" and fill it with nothing but advertizing and links back to the root manufacturers web sites for selection, sales and shipping. Operator of website need not bother with sales of anything but advertizing.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Lion: Sounds like an idea to me.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
Lion, Hasn't the Hobby business "model" been for the last 20-30 years, mail order? Then , the mail order businesses and many brick and mortar hobby "shops" have adapted the internet as an additional store front. Like almost everything in the USA, if it ain't "Big Business", it ain't in business!
As disappointed as I am, I am of a mind there’s nothing we can do about it. Writing them in mass would do nothing at this point because all they’d say is “hm. Letters,e-mails and phone calls don’t sell paint”. And any giant boost in sales now would only be seen as a "panic stocking up" by the few and not as any long term sales trend.
Bottom line is, they’re culling the herd. As much as we hate to admit it, apparently MR specific paints do not sell enough to warrant special brands that along with it contain separate facilities, separate employees and their wages,raises and benefits, and of course let’s not forget all the EPA and Government things they have to do because they are manufacturing paint. I’m pretty sure if the Floquil brands sold to the level they were offsetting these costs with satisfactory profits, they would not be phased out.
After reading the Facebook posting that Jeffrey posted, which I believe explained the why’s, I went to the Testor’s site and looked at their selection of paints in the brands they intend on keeping. I see sufficient paints available to pretty much do what we want to do. That combined with other brands, we should be just fine. Oh yes sure there will have to be some mixing, quite a bit actually, but hey. Aren’t many of us complaining of the RTR crowd causing the loss of RTP colors (that’s ReadyTo Paint colors) and assorted other killings and lost arts etc? Many have been wanting more and more back to the basics, lost art stuff for the hobby, well….
Step 1: Mix your own colors.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
I think if I could say one thing and make one point to Testors, it would be this:
You stated in effect on your posting on your Facebook page that you are discontinueing production of Floquil & Polyscale because of the "changes" in model railroading & that the market has shifted towards ready to run, right out of the box. Well, under that mindset, all the manufacturers of other hobby kits like planes, tanks, ships & cars must surely be considering putting out their models pre-built, pre-painted, pre-decaled. Just take 'em out of the box, put 'em on the shelf & look at 'em. But I don't think you're going to see that are you?
The point is that despite the "ready to run" market, there are still a LOT more serious hobbyists, builders & kit-bashers out there than your bean counters think there are! Discontinue Floquil & Polyscale, forcing those serious hobbyists to go to other competitors products, and I think you're going to find out the hard way just how many of us ARE out here!
dehusman I think a lot of this discussion would have not happened and a there would have been a lot less knashing of teeth if Testors had said whether they were going to continue some or all of the colors from the railroad line into one of the other lines. I remember the days when you had to mix your own colors (MR used to run a feature on the recipe to make various prototype colors from the existing paint colors). I am really not looking forward to mixing my own paint colors again.
I think a lot of this discussion would have not happened and a there would have been a lot less knashing of teeth if Testors had said whether they were going to continue some or all of the colors from the railroad line into one of the other lines.
I remember the days when you had to mix your own colors (MR used to run a feature on the recipe to make various prototype colors from the existing paint colors). I am really not looking forward to mixing my own paint colors again.
AVRNUT The point is that despite the "ready to run" market, there are still a LOT more serious hobbyists, builders & kit-bashers out there than your bean counters think there are! Discontinue Floquil & Polyscale, forcing those serious hobbyists to go to other competitors products, and I think you're going to find out the hard way just how many of us ARE out here!
I'd doubt this. They have access to their sales data. They have a much more accurate point of view.
NittanyLion AVRNUT The point is that despite the "ready to run" market, there are still a LOT more serious hobbyists, builders & kit-bashers out there than your bean counters think there are! Discontinue Floquil & Polyscale, forcing those serious hobbyists to go to other competitors products, and I think you're going to find out the hard way just how many of us ARE out here! I'd doubt this. They have access to their sales data. They have a much more accurate point of view.
I agree. For if there were that many people actually buying these paints and not just wanting them available, then they wouldn't be dropping the line. A manufacturer can't really stay in business just having something available. People actually have to purchase and in the frequency sufficient for them to make profits. Simply making 10,000 bottles of MP blue and selling to the hobbyshops once with no reorder for a year or only 100 bottles ever so often, doesn't work. They know people will go elsewhere if someone picks that color up, but those numbers will only be approximately the same as their own which they see as not profitable, or profitable enough.
NP2626Lion, Hasn't the Hobby business "model" been for the last 20-30 years, mail order? Then , the mail order businesses and many brick and mortar hobby "shops" have adapted the internet as an additional store front. Like almost everything in the USA, if it ain't "Big Business", it ain't in business!
No the model I described *is* different. For the past 30 years, maybe more, mail/phone orders were the way the big boys were doing it, and Internet sales is an extension and explosion of this trend. But we also already have some manufacturers that ONLY sell direct to the consumer via internet, and if you go to most manufactures web sites, you can order from them directly via internet.
So LION proposed a directory filled with product advertizing in an organized way. Click on tracks and see track manufactures, click on a manufacturer and you will go to his website to see his product line and place your order directly with him.
You do not maintain a product catalog, you do not sell anything. What you are doing is providing an advertizing space to manufacturers and a good way for people to get in contact with them.
Now excuse the LION, while he tries to find some more drawbars for his trains.
Don't like your "Model" Lion! I want discounted prices, don't want to pay manufacturer's suggested retail.
I have not read every response in this thread.....
But have we really determined that the formula for those brands are going away?...that they will not be used in the ModelMaster and other brands.
This may be just a situation where Testors views Floquil as a model railroading specific brand and is discontinuing the line due to fewer benefits from marketing paint under a specific name.
Perhaps we will find the same formula paints under the ModelMaster umbrella and this announcement is sort of telling retailers to stop and customers to stop looking for the name "Floquil" in the future.
Just wondering what we really know about the future of the actual paint at this point....
- Douglas
The formula for Floquil and Model Master are supposedly the same, which is why I quit using Floquil Paint years ago after Testor's ruined the old Floquil Lacquer base paint with the new Enamel.
I have read where the Floquil colors will NOT be going into the Model Master's colors. So no great loss, I will continue using my Scalecoat I & II paint.,
But if somebody came back with the old Floquil with the flat finish I would go back to that in a heartbeat.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
I've used Floquil for many years, but have lately been using mostly Scalecoat paints. My biggest complaint with Floquil has been the larger size bottles. I'd rather spend $4 on a quality bottle of paint, instead of $6, that will go bad before I use it all.
Still, I'll miss Floquil Rail Brown. I use it a lot and haven't found a suitable replacement.