Rule of Thumb For Engine Amp Draw?

[darth9x9]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Bill,In the 53 years I been in the hobby I never worried about amps..I found it was one of those needless worries of the hobby..[sniped]

Unfortunately, life isn't always so simple. Our club has experienced an amperage shortage a couple of times in the past when displaying modules at a local train show. Too many engines pulling too many cars up a grade (created by the uneven floor) on top of trying to push electrons through the track and track bus, caused the system to shut down (we were drawing more current than it could put out). We have since fixed the problem by buying extra power boosters. We now have more current than we need but we still to the calculations once in a while just to be safe.

[BRAKIE]

Indeed Don..We do..You see your ways and my ways are not the same.We both get the same end results.The only difference I use the basics while you use the advanced techniques..I am a advanced modeler but,use the basic wiring and scenery techniques.I bend rules(come to think of it I don't have any rules) and do what is ever necessary to get the job done.That Don,is why I know what can be or can't be done or what works and what doesn't..Its all a matter of experience and understanding what our models will and will not do in regards to track work..Look,we can fuss all day and all night you are not going to change what I know nor will I change you and what you know.We both get the same end results.A fully scenic operable layout..You may use toggle switches while I use selectors.You may block your track every three feet while I block mine where I want a block. .The end results is the same.
I tweak my drives because its a thing I love to do.You may cuss Athearn because you don't want to tweak the drive to get it to run smoother.See,different types of modelers.In my opinion theres not a engine made that suits my running tastes.They all need that extra something to get them where I want them..Savvy?
You use snap track in 59? Gee.I didn't think anybody used snap track back then.Well if that don't beat the mousey band.

[Don Gibson]

BRAKIE:

I've been in the hobby since 1959 - (started with Athearn and Atlas 'Snap' track) .

I can see you are an "advanced basic modeler that has years of PIRATICAL EXPERIENCE" (quote), with an OPEN mind. We must discuss the finer points of Railroading, sometime.

[BRAKIE]

Don,I found experts to be wrong Many times.I never said Brass track is better then Nickel Silver..I said it can be used..About Kato.I have said that Athearn can take its place along side of kato.About the bulbs-You said they was not connected to the metal pickup..Well thats wrong they do make contact with the metal pickup strip.
Don,You just gotta lean that others may know something you don't. But then,that would rain on your parade.I can tell you have very little practical experience in most things.How can I tell this?You're to perfect with your smoke and mirror replies and technical jabber.You may fool some folks but,sorry you don't fool me at all..
Now fess up you been in the hobby how long and your experiences?
And yes,I am a advanced basic modeler that has years of PIRATICAL EXPERIENCE..
You see Don,I march by my own drummer and rules.I don't pay any attentionto the experts so called,the expert wanna bes or other hot shot modelers that always seem to fade into the sunset.

[Don Gibson]

Larry:
I guess the 'experts' should be listening to YOU.
1, Brass track is better than nickle silver
2..Athearns run better than Kato's
3. REMOVING .05v.bulbs in Athearn's make them run better
4.'Snap' # 4's are the same as 'Snap' switches.

As you said: " I am a very experience advanced basic modeler that knows what can and can not be done".

OK. If you say so.

I'm still waiting to hear how you wire a 'Double crossover' using Atlas "snap turnou'ts".

[BRAKIE]

Don,All to sadly that is your closed mind opinion..To bad that..Open your mind and try new things..You will learn far more then you think by breaking the rules of the experts so called who usually know nothing in the first place...[}:)]

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
Don,My old Tech II 1400 can run 8 Athearn locomotives without any problems ... I am a very experience advanced basic modeler that knows what can and can not be done..Me worry? Nope

BRAKIE:That's 4 amps with the newer Athearn blue box and 6 - 8 amps with the Old one's. I can just about guarantee your voltage was way down and I don't even know your Tech II's output. I'll bet you don't know either. As you said "Me worry?"

As a basic modeler, I can assure you that if you run 8 engines (even 4?) very long you might be needing a new Power supply.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

Antonio FP45:

People with Athearn and Railpower shells don't know what they're missing.

Proto Power West: is A marriage of Delrin gears, Mashima motors, added weighting, and more positive electrical connections, to an Athearn chassis (and wheels).

Those owning DCC or wanting better low speed running add Jay Bee or NWSL wheel replacements to makes this a formidable drive.

Thanks Don.
I can say with certainty that "I have an idea" on what I'm missing! I've got 3 Athearn "Big Jacks" and two U-Boats that I want to install the "Tsunami" in. There's "No Way" I'll do that with all their "growling".[B)][:0][:p] I'm going to check out PPW's website. [:D][8D]

Now, from what you're saying it's worth it to also change the gearing? Do you mean the trucks? If this is what it takes to make them run as smoothly as a you say, (and if the growl can be quieted to P2k levels) then I would not mind budgeting and buying these items. [;)]

One thing though; I would like to keep the same "gear ratios" currently on my Jacks (Santa Fe FP45s) as the prototypes regularly ran at 80+ m.p.h. [4:-)][tup]

Thanks for all of your help!

[nfmisso]

Bill;

The Zephyr is an excellent base for your layout. I suggest adding a UR91 (or equivalent) radio receiver, and a radio throttle for each operator. I like the DT400R.

[robengland]

Don raises an excellent point: it is not how many trains you run, it is how many locos. If you run MU lashups, there are more locos than trains.

Still, the Zephyr will run half a dozen locos and a few accessories.

And *if* you run out of power, buy a 5A booster later, and add it to your system The Zephyr will still serve you well as the base command unit and you may never need anything more.

[BRAKIE]

Don,My old Tech II 1400 can run 8 Athearn locomotives without any problems..Thats more then I ever MU at one time so the power is sufficient to get the job done.We use CM20s at the club with 3-6 units in a unit consist with no problems..Thats one of the reason I do not worry about amp draw.The Zephyr shouldn't have any problems doing what a simple old TechII 1400 will do especially on a 2' X 15' switching layout even without blocks..Savvy? And yes Don I speak from experience.
All I am saying Don is there is things in the hobby that modelers worry about that really calls for no great concern.I know what I say is alien to you and perhaps contrary to your knowledge but,I am a very experience advanced basic modeler that knows what can and can not be done..Me worry? Nope as my experience tells me differently..[:D] Even with my DCC I installed the DCC/Sound Decoders and speaker program the engine address it and started running it..Simple yes,but it works.

[Don Gibson]

BRAKIE:

Sorry to take issue with your ADVICE but the number of Engines that can be MU'd and powered at the same time is determined by the capacity of the power pack. AMPs are what is consumed. . It's like how many mouth's you are feeding at the table vs. how much was cooked. As you add people, the amount per share goes down..Same is true of a power Pak.. As you reach amp capacity the voltage drops.

Put in simpler terms Larry, If you run 2 old Athearn's using 1 amp each on a 2 Amp power supply, the voltage will go down when you add a 3rd engine.

53 years ago MRC had rectifier supplies that put out 3 & 5 amps with 3 amp circuit breakers.(Some engines at that time used t 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 amps). Today's power paks are Solid State and don't put out that much power, and are very sensitive to shorts.Perhaps your power source has enough power for your engines, but that depends on your layout, doesn't it. AMPS are the measurement of power units being consumed.

I'm glad you're not worried. I don't want you to worry, and probably your right, Bill wont need to worry , but even a 'Zephyr' has a calculated limit.
Remember the Cartoon character "What Me Worry?"

[BRAKIE]

Bill,In the 53 years I been in the hobby I never worried about amps..I found it was one of those needless worries of the hobby..Your Zephyr should serve you well.

[Don Gibson]

Antonio FP45:

Proto Power West is the Division of A Line that imports Mashima motors in this country.
They also use them in their chassis.

The fellow that owns A Line was a hobbyist that started by writing a series of articles about how to 'improve' Athearn drives, started doing it for others, then bought a small injected moulding plastics business. He called it ' A-Line', and has people hand-making the Chassis'.

People with Athearn and Railpower shells don't know what they're missing. I have some Oriental /Samhongsa and Overland /Dong Jin / Cannon motored brass drives that are more expensive, that don't run as well. In fact, it's there is nothing that runs better - Considering I also have top Kato, Stewart and Atlas.

Proto Power West: is A marriage of Delrin gears, Mashima motors, added weighting, and more positive electrical connections, to an Athearn chassis (and wheels).

Those owning DCC or wanting better low speed running add Jay Bee or NWSL wheel replacements to makes this a formidable drive.

[AntonioFP45]

Hey Don!

That's amazing that even Genesis units can be affected!

As I mentioned before I'm planning on repowering 5 Athearn locomotives. I've been set on the "Mashima" motors that come from Proto Power West.

Thanks! [:D][;)]

[Don Gibson]

FP Tonio:

Motors can lose magnetism over a period of time, and Athearn has been one of the 'cheap motor' kings of all time. it's amazing how much improvement can be made in an Athearn engine by replacing their motor. What happened to you happened to two of my Genesis F's allready. They started pulling 3 amps. (I have a meter).

Proto Power West discovered this years ago, and went a step further redoing the mechanism electrically, and mechanically. D. Harrison's MS&I comment (re: PPW)
was they're "bullet proof".

I'll venture that down the road the MSI's railroad exhibit will have many more PPW.'s.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

VOLTS is speed and delivery related . AMPS is the power consumed:

OLD Athearn's used .75a - 1amp. each.
MOST engines today use about .5 amps, or 2 engines = 1 amp.
The BEST engine's TODAY use about .25 amps, or 4 engines = 1 amp.

"STALL" amperage (amps) is roughly 2 - 4 times running, and should be avoided.
(The ONLY way to know this is to have an amp meter)

Power Paks with 12 VA can deliver 1 amp @ 12 volts.

INTERPRETATION: 3 throttles / 3 Athearn engines = 1.5 amps; - or 3 throttles @ 2 engines apiece = 3 amps. + plus any consumption by the Digitrax.

Hey Don,

Very good rule of thumb and info!

One factor though. [;)] With older locomotives, the running condition and age can have an effect. Some of my old Athearns from the 1970s draw 2 amps! Talk about energy eating Hogs! [:0][:p] Of course they sat for over a decade in a box without running.

Cheers!

[Don Gibson]

VOLTS is speed and delivery related . AMPS is the power consumed:

OLD Athearn's used .75a - 1amp. each.
MOST engines today use about .5 amps, or 2 engines = 1 amp.
The BEST engine's TODAY use about .25 amps, or 4 engines = 1 amp.

"STALL" amperage (amps) is roughly 2 - 4 times running, and should be avoided.
(The ONLY way to know this is to have an amp meter)

Power Paks with 12 VA can deliver 1 amp @ 12 volts.

INTERPRETATION: 3 throttles / 3 Athearn engines = 1.5 amps; - or 3 throttles @ 2 engines apiece = 3 amps. + plus any consumption by the Digitrax.

[tstage]

Bill,

I don't run DCC (yet!) but, from what I've read about the Digitrax Zephyr, I believe it should be more than sufficient for your 2' x 15' layout with 3 locomotives. (I thought I remember the literature saying that it could handle up to 6 or 7 locomotives at one time.)

Also, one of the beauties of the Zephyr system is that if you ever decide that you want to expand your current layout into something larger, it can and will easily expand with it - without major renovation to your current wiring.

It's probably advisable to listen to Joe, since he seems to have more hands on experience with DCC.

Tom

[Anonymous]

You should be fine with the Zephyr just running engines -- most big name (Atlas, Kato, Athern, etc) engines made in the last 20 years draw only about .5 - .6 amps. I've run three Kato-based engines (all Stewart) on a test track with my Zephyr system with no problems.

However, if you want to add all that other stuff, like the uncouplers, and perhaps switch machines, the Zephyr could be outclassed pretty quickly. Since you're planning on going with walk-arounds anyway, you should definitely look at something like the Digitrax Chief system, or the NCE. You'd want at least a 5 amp booster to start with.

[Anonymous]

Hi, everyone. I keep reading so many different amounts of amps that a HO locomotive draws. Stall amps and other kinds of amps. Is there a "rule of thumb" you guys use as to how many amps a HO engine uses? Like .....1 amp, or .5 amp, or .6 amp?

I bought a Digitrax Zephyr. I did not open it yet. I am kind of thinking that maybe I should get my friends to chip in and we buy one of the bigger systems, like the NCE Power Pro or one of the Digitrrax's.

It is only a HO switching layout which is 2' X 15'. We will have 3 engines running at the same time now, doing different things on the layout. Maybe add another engine. I want to play with sound, I think that does not use much current. the console throttle that came with the Zephyr is just about useless for us, we need 3 walkaround throttles. I want to buy one of those DCC uncoupling systems that I saw at Tony's, where you raise and lower the coupler on the switching engine from the throttle. Maybe I should exchange the Zephyr.

Thank you. Bill