Regg,
Thanks for sharing your photo links.
Good to know that you were able to zoom in on the problem. I'm amazed that Atlas is still making the same "Snap" switches that I remember from over 40 years ago! The blades are stamped. As mentioned, over time as they start to "very slightly" bend inward and downward, loco & rolling stock wheels will pick them and derail. Carefully filing the points to a taper usually cures the problem. Keep in mind that it could creep up again in the long term if you run your equipment frequently.
Although the expense is higher, you may consider investing into the higher grade Atlas turnouts or go with Peco turnouts.
The friend of mine I mentioned bought a big magnifying glass with a built in light. It sounds comical, but it's a helpful tool and has helped him improve his track work. He has a mix of EZ Track and Atlas Snap track. To me, not the best combo to use but he's managed to make it work and actually runs 40 car long freight trains on his extended folded dogbone layout.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
The turnouts Atlas makes can be a real trouble spot. Locomotives and cars will pick the points and derail, and then cause a short because of the closure rails. The the railroad club that I'm a member of uses all Atlas switches on their layout, and the switches have been a problem spot at Open Houses. Finally I went around the layout and filed all the switch points to a shapr point, and that solved all the issues. The real test was backing a 20 car train into a siding through an Atlas #4 switch. It made it without any derailments.
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
Thanks Ironrooster
Yep you and everyone else were right. I went home yesterday after work and got practically eye level right up on the track and I could see two immediate problems. On the straight going into the curve the outer rail was not even side to side it was almost like the track was leaning on one side and as it entered the curve it got worse so the F40PH left rear wheel always came off the track at the point but then would continue on and correct itself after the switch point but then would derail again. The rails were also squeezed in just a tad in this same area. So I replaced that area with a piece of flex track and so far no problem but now its derailing in another area so when I get home I will check that area out as well. But I see now that what looks normal from a distance could indeed be out of line.
I had all kinds of frustrating trouble with locos and cars "picking" the Atlas turnout points when I installed my first thirty-two Tortoise switch machines. I have cured every one of them by going back and installing heavier music wire for the actuator rods.
My layout base is about 1 3/4 inches thick and the standard rods supplied were too short. I had simply cut longer rods from similar material and they proved too flexible. Use the largest rod that fits through the standard hole in the atlas throw-bar. The Tortoise has lots of holding power. Also make sure your clearance hole is large enough to work with a little misalignment.
I would also look for proper easements for gentle extended approaches to grade changes.
When everything is installed correctly and wheels are in gauge, life can be good
Regg05 Exactly, I didn't see any problems either. I have ran my fingers over the areas I show in my pictures countless numbers of times, ran my Metra F40PH over it back and forth slowly and it runs fine. I've gotten to eye level with the track to see if i see any dips in the track or roadbed or any uneven rail joiners. etc. It seems like the problems come once I add cars to my F40PH which is a 4 axle engine then the trouble starts. On my six axle engines then thats another story altogether. Funny thing is sometimes they all work with minimal derailments and other times its back to back which is why im so frustrated. however I have listened to you guys and I just ordered a coupler gauge and i think it includes a track gauge all built in one.
Exactly, I didn't see any problems either. I have ran my fingers over the areas I show in my pictures countless numbers of times, ran my Metra F40PH over it back and forth slowly and it runs fine. I've gotten to eye level with the track to see if i see any dips in the track or roadbed or any uneven rail joiners. etc. It seems like the problems come once I add cars to my F40PH which is a 4 axle engine then the trouble starts. On my six axle engines then thats another story altogether. Funny thing is sometimes they all work with minimal derailments and other times its back to back which is why im so frustrated. however I have listened to you guys and I just ordered a coupler gauge and i think it includes a track gauge all built in one.
Regg05,
You really need to get real close to the track at eye level and watch the locomotive as it derails. Photos and fingers aren't really perceptive enough. You need to find the exact spots where the derailments occur.
Most likely, the derailments start at the switch point rails of turnouts, or where there are joiners. I would be surprised if a derailment started in the middle of a piece of track.
If so, that might suggest something being wrong with the loco, either its wheels are out of gauge or maybe something is binding and keeping the truck from turning sharply enough, like a wire.
As other have mentioned, if the switch points aren't closed all of the way, or even if they move slightly when the first truck rides on it, that will cause the loco to derail. I have an Atlas switch that does this, and no adjustment to the switch points have helped. i need to replace the turnout.
Bent joiners, or possibly little metal nubbins left over from trimming, could stick up and throw the truck up over the rail.
A gauge will help you find the cause of the problem once the locations are isolated, but you really need to find the exact spots in the track the derailments occur.
- Douglas
As others mention, I also don't see any real obvious trouble w/ the trackwork. There are minor "kinks" directly at the diverging route of many of the turnouts. But they don't appear to be that bad to cause these troubles. How did you fasten the track? If you used track nails (nailed @ the tie center), oversetting the nail can cause the tie to bend downward and narrow the gauge of the rails at that spot. A standards gauge to check the trackwork as well as the wheel gauge should be used. I would also lay a machined straightedge or decent 2 ft level along the rails to check for dips and any humps.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Regg05 I have a 5x9 HO layout and most of it is sectional by Atlas......lately I been having nothing but problems with this track around curves and through the turnouts also by Atlas. Both my four and six axle engines derail and I can't figure out why.
I have a 5x9 HO layout and most of it is sectional by Atlas......lately I been having nothing but problems with this track around curves and through the turnouts also by Atlas. Both my four and six axle engines derail and I can't figure out why.
I do have cut elevations in the wood due to thats how Atlas #28 designed the plan so I can't fix that. I do have some sections that I repaired with flex track and was just thinking if I should tear up all the track and install Flex track entirely except obviously through the turnouts. Would any of you think this is better or should I just stick with what I have.
Has anyone used flex track entirely?
The switch machines are under the table to make the layout look more realistic. Also my four axle Kato Metra F40PH is derailing like crazy and its always the wheel on the driver side rear. Its brand new so I don't know if that wheel is out of line or what. What do I use to tell if my wheels are out of gauge on my loco?
What caught my attention is I didn't see anything that holds the switch points in place..
Are you using under the table switch machines or something I'm not seeing?
If not your points is moving as you engine enters the switch causing a derailment.
As far as flex track there's no guarantee the derailments will cease if the track work isn't smooth..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
You will likely ALWAYS have trouble with six axles as most sectional track has 18" radius curves. There are later 22" versions though. Whichever you have, work on your track work until all of your 4 wheeled diesels run smoothly. In addition to sighting with your eye (lying on your cheek against the track) try running your hand lightly down the track across each section and joint. You may easily feel where the problem is better than seeing it. Be gentle at lst and careful so you don't scratch or cut yourself.
If you can, get our sponser's track laying book. Every additional joint allows the possibility of something being a tiny bit off, height wise or sideways. The most important side of the rail is the inside where the wheel meets the rail.
Also, use an NMRA gauge ( a small metal card with notches and tabs) to run through your turnouts to see if they were manufactured with too tight of a space between rails/frogs, or too much space, etc. Running this gauge through them will either bind the gauge or you'll notice the sloppiness.
I made a sectional 4X8 layout in my teen years with sectional track and it ran well. If you think you can manage with flex track be sure to buy a Xuron "Rail Nipper" to cut your track with. I used the Atlas cheapie hobby saw/track saw as a kid and mangled my flex track. The nippers cut often with no filing needed. A book with photos and someone to show you once, how flex track is used and it's easy. I was afraid to use it as an adult because of my saw experiences but the nipper cured that immediately! With flex track you might be able to get a little bit bigger radius curves but anything under 22" will probably not be successful with six axles.
See if you can find someone at a club locally who can spend an hour with you to learn the flex track thang.
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
Some things to try:
Sight along the track with your eye as close to the track as possible and make sure that all your curves are smooth.
Make sure that you don't have any dips or bumps along the track, use a straight edge to check.
Make sure that your track is flat. Also level side to side.
Grade changes can be very problematic, run your longest locomotive very slowly over them and watch for problems. Do it several times watching from the front, the side, the back.
Be very fussy with getting it right - this is one place to be perfectionist.
Good luck
Paul
My input, perhaps covered above, is that trackwork quality is at least as important as whether flex or sectional. I built a sectional layout in Jr High and it worked pretty reliably. I built a flex layout when the 3rd child was born (really for me) and it didn't work well. But that's not necessarily the "obvious" answer. I've recently got back to the hobby and built a 6' x 10' HO layout with flex, which seems to do quite well. Also built a 4' x 6' sectioanl layout (Bachmann) for my grandson) that works quite well.
The key point I would make is to understand how to carefully and effectively lay roadbed & trackage. I would emphasize studying some of the booklets available on this site (if you need specific recommendations, ask). Things liek how to connect joints on curves, how many joints to solder versus supply power to each track by feeders, etc, come into play. The point is that careful work makes a huge difference, but you have to know what the issues are and how to address them.
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Hey Antonio
I thought I had posted pics of my layout.but but I guess not. Maybe my post didnt take but anyway here are the pics of my layout 5x9....I know its pretty busy but the pictures i listed are pretty much where my trains are derailing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92978045@N06/8566936286/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92978045@N06/8566942418/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92978045@N06/8565844967/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92978045@N06/8565844019/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92978045@N06/8565843085/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92978045@N06/8566938354/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/92978045@N06/8566937308/
How abrupt are the changes in elevation?
Going from an incline to level can lift the axle of a truck up over the rail.
I had another problem with an SD35. Just a slight depression in the outside rail around a 22 inch radius curve caused the leading axle to sail above the lower rail, then ride along the outside of the rail as the track returned level. That was on a "flat" gradeless layout. Just poor roadbed work.
Your curves and turnouts need to be level. No changes in elevation from side-to-side. Hard to explain...curves and turnouts can be slanted, but both rails must stay on the same plain, no twisting.
The amount of joiners could have nothing to do with it. Its most likely the twisting of the curved track, which you could just as well have with flex.
On Railroad of LION, sometimes equipment strikes third rail. On non-subway equipment, gotta remember to shave away bottom steps and give good clearance to the third rail.
Do NOT touch the third rail! is 600 volts DC and trains draw 6000 amps each.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Do your derailing problems only at turnouts or at other places too? Sectional track does have a lot more joints and thus possible power problems. As LION mentioned, using new joiners makes for fewer problems in that area. If all your joints are still smooth and in line, I wouldn't blame your sectional track..
If your problems are only at switches, do they need some tuning up? Are any parts loose? Are they still in guage? Is there any ballast or other scenic material making it so that the points do not throw properly? Are these the same locos that used to go through these turnouts without problems? Could there wheels have gotten out of guage, though that is unusual after they are once set properly. Are your turnouts on a flat surface? They can be on a grade, but the grade should not change under the turnout, that could cause a problem over time if they shifted.
Just a few things to check out.
Off to the layout to see if I can figure out why my new loco likes to derail where my older ones, same wheel arrangement, have no problems.
Good luck,
Richard.
There may be more than one cause and solutions to your problem, which sounds like track work. But you might not have to replace what you've already installed. However, it may be helpful if you could post photos of the track sections in question.
Lion makes a very good point in checking every section carefully with a gauge as sometimes there may be issues that are barely visible to the naked eye.
A friend of mine experienced issues similar to yours on his layout, which has small elevations on some curves. His problems turned out to be a combination of minor kinks in the track, barely visible high/low spots, and warped truck issues on several older-run Athearn Genesis locomotives.
LION uses only flex track. It can be had for anything from about $3.00 a stick up to about $9.00 a stick, so the price is yours to pick. LION uses Model Power track from Trainworld, only $2.90 a stick in boxes of 100. Do you need 300' of track??? LION has over 900 feet of track on his layout.
LION uses Atlas Switches, and these cost a lot more than when I was a kid. Tortoise switch machines, these are more expensive, but you put your money where it will you the most good, and these are it! Easy to install and wire.
But flex track is the ONLY way to go unless you have a reason for doing otherwise. Unless of course you want to lay track (and maybe even switches) from scratch, but that is NOT cheaper than buying tracks.
But "problems" are not the issue of sectional track. Perfect track laying is an issue. And of course as track is used over and over again it develops problems. If you will reuse your sectional track again, go for all new rail joiners on it, and check each piece and switch with a gauge. But you would have to do this with flex track as well, and let me tell you, LION has problems with flex tracks too. Sometimes you cannot make a perfect joint, sometimes you must pull a section of track out and replace it.
Besides that, It is like a leaky roof. You place the bucket where you can catch the water, but the leak may be as much as 25 or more feet away: A Wheel may jump a rail over there, but not derail the train until it gets over here. You keep working on this track and nothing works, and then the light comes on, the problem is really over there.
Little puzzles like this will keep your MOW crew busy for the rest of your life!
I have a 5x9 HO layout and most of it is sectional by Atlas......lately I been having nothing but problems with this track around curves and through the turnouts also by Atlas. Both my four and six axle engines derail and I can't figure out why. I do have cut elevations in the wood due to thats how Atlas #28 designed the plan so I can't fix that. I do have some sections that I repaired with flex track and was just thinking if I should tear up all the track and install Flex track entirely except obviously through the turnouts. Would any of you think this is better or should I just stick with what I have. Has anyone used flex track entirely? What type of cost am I looking at?