charlie9 first a question. i have noticed that the bowser flat car and the red caboose flat car both have the stake pockets outside past the end of the flooring. are these models also incorrect? were some flat cars built this way and some were not? seems like most of the real ones i have seen had the extended floor boards. second and observation. i don't think i really appreciated fine, correct details on cars until i got my cataracts fixed a few years ago. since then i have really enjoyed the more detailed car kits. i did not pop for the extended focus implants because i was too cheap to pay the extra $$$ so anything within about 18 inches of my face requires the use of my 10 dollar, walgreens, off the rack cheaters. even so, i always knew there were bugs in my basement, i just didn't realize how many of them were cross eyed until now. improved lighting and eyesight changes your entire perspective. Charlie
first a question. i have noticed that the bowser flat car and the red caboose flat car both have the stake pockets outside past the end of the flooring. are these models also incorrect? were some flat cars built this way and some were not? seems like most of the real ones i have seen had the extended floor boards.
second and observation. i don't think i really appreciated fine, correct details on cars until i got my cataracts fixed a few years ago. since then i have really enjoyed the more detailed car kits. i did not pop for the extended focus implants because i was too cheap to pay the extra $$$ so anything within about 18 inches of my face requires the use of my 10 dollar, walgreens, off the rack cheaters. even so, i always knew there were bugs in my basement, i just didn't realize how many of them were cross eyed until now.
improved lighting and eyesight changes your entire perspective.
Charlie
Charlie, look closely at the photo I posted that shows the WESTERN MARYLAND car. While the WESTERN MARYLAND car does have the decking out to the ends of the stake pockets, the other three appear to only have decking to the car sides.
I have seen actual cars both ways over the years. Remember, the wood decking on a flat car takes a lot of abuse and gets replaced a number of times in the life of the car. I suspect many may have been built with decking only to the car sides, then had it extended out as that became more common practice.
Also remember, those photos I posted were taken in the late 1930's, what was common then may have been no longer common by 1950 or 1960.
As for detail, a few thoughts. I am 55 and only recently needed reading glasses for stuff close up. I still have generally very good vision overall. I like detail, but the fact is our models are 1/87 scale, and when you are two actual feet from the model, you are 174 scale feet away.
It is my view that our models need only give a realistic impression base on how the real thing looks at similar distances, and that if detail is over sized, it is sometimes better left off.
I have lots of high detail models, and I have lots of Athearn BB level models, and as trains roll around the layout, and viewers and operators observe them at two or three feet, or even greater distances, there is little or no difference in visual impression.
Sure, if you get 10" away and examine them you can see the differences - I'm building a layout that fills an 880 sq ft room, has 900 freight cars and has an 8 scale mile long mainline - I'm not building a three foot section of diorama for a museum.
And as for all this obsessive stuff like the number ribs on the end of a car, or "this car is 6" too short", well I use to be into that and got bored with rivet counting.............
I find that things like working, touching diaphragms on passenger cars, and proper close coupling distances on all cars, make way more difference in the overall scale appearance/proportion of the TRAIN, as opposed to obsessing about the details on each car.
Just my view,
Sheldon
Nothing wrong with your photo skills at all, Sheldon. The pictures are clear (not out-of-focus or suffering from shaky-camera syndrome) well-lit, and show what you wished to show. When you get some scenery in place, it'll show off the trains even better.
Following prototype practices is a good way to make a free-lanced layout look convincing, and the best part is, we can cherry-pick those practices which appeal most to our individual tastes. Your heavy Mikes are a good example of that.
Wayne
doctorwayne Good-lookin' cars, Rob. As soon as i saw the WP car, the first thing which sprang to mind was PS-1, so you've done a credible job. I like the paint job on the flatcar's deck, too. Sheldon, thanks for your kind words. I like your home road trailers, and the fact that there's more than one lettering scheme for them - a good way to simulate the passage of time from the earlier style to the current-day one. Wayne
Good-lookin' cars, Rob. As soon as i saw the WP car, the first thing which sprang to mind was PS-1, so you've done a credible job. I like the paint job on the flatcar's deck, too.
Sheldon, thanks for your kind words. I like your home road trailers, and the fact that there's more than one lettering scheme for them - a good way to simulate the passage of time from the earlier style to the current-day one.
Wayne, thank you. that was the plan, and actually there is a third scheme on the 25' vans and several others on 32' vans - all with a family look. Piggy back service is a focal point on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
I was inspired by the history of the B&O and wide range of paint schemes that coexisted for decades on that line. They began painting passenger cars in the blue/gray/gold scheme in the late thirties, it was made standard for all passenger cars in the early forties, in 1965 when the C&O took over, there were still solid blue and Pullman green passenger cars floating around the system.
My loco fleet is similar with several different schemes in play.
I need your photo skills so I can take some better pictures of all the stuff I have built.
Wayne and Rob,
Very nice work as usual.
Thanks for sharing
charlie9 Sheldon, thanks for the photos. I see the brake wheel faces out on the WM flat car. Wayne, i like your models, especially the gon-flat combo. thanks for sharing. I remember seeing triple loads with a center idler on occasion years ago but i don't think trees get that tall anymore. Such loads often made their way east on a series of locals. They were also handy for getting even with a troublesome road crew since they were usually restricted to 30 MPH. heh heh The P company and later the PC ran a dedicated High&Wide train east to Indianapolis on m-w-f and west on t-th-sat. Charlie
Sheldon, thanks for the photos. I see the brake wheel faces out on the WM flat car.
Wayne, i like your models, especially the gon-flat combo. thanks for sharing.
I remember seeing triple loads with a center idler on occasion years ago but i don't think trees get that tall anymore.
Such loads often made their way east on a series of locals. They were also handy for getting even with a troublesome road crew since they were usually restricted to 30 MPH. heh heh
The P company and later the PC ran a dedicated High&Wide train east to Indianapolis on m-w-f and west on t-th-sat.
Charlie, you are welcome - yes the brake wheel faces out, as it does on every set of instructions Athearn ever printed for the kit, and as they have always installed it on every one they ever sold RTR.
I have upwards of 70 of these cars, most as early 50's piggyback cars. And I do a number of mods to make them more accurate, but I don't get extreme by any means. There was a guy years ago who coined the term "minimum effort modeling", that is improving the model with just a few easy mods - that's what I do with a lot of stuff - because I'm building a big fleet.
Here are a few photos, not the greatest, but maybe you will get the idea. I remove the original Athearn "floor rack", cut it up to salvage and re-install the rub rails, cut off the extra axle on the trailers, use the extra wheel sets for spare tires (common on trailers in the 50's), and for fifth wheel jack stands (before folding hitches), relocate the landing gear on the trailer reward, then I add some bridge plates and stakes (used for the latch chains that held the bridge plates in the up position) - and there you have it - a reasonable representation of a 1953 piggy back car.
And I have made these mods to both original BB kits, and to their Ready to Roll equals currently in production - in this case, the BB and new RTR are identical except the RTR have better paint and different roadnames.
And I replace all the trucks with my special setup - Kadee sprung metal trucks refitted with Intermountain wheel sets.
I have not got around to any weathering on these yet.
And I do have several of them lettered WESTERN MARYLAND, which is one of the roads I model.
doctorwayne...you can always experience the pleasures of kitbashing to either correct them or alter them to reflect your own choices of freelanced inaccuracies.
Hey I've done some of that - especially creating my own inaccuracies! (And great pics of the cars you've done.)
Here's an Athearn 40'box modified into a stand-in WP car from the 70s. I removed the running board, and reworked the door and sill, added various details to match prototype photos, and then applied paint and decals. The prototype was a PS-1, but at the time I built this it was tough to find a good PS-1 starting point, plus I had the Athearn car on hand...
Athearn's 50' mechanical reefer isn't too far off from a PFE R-70-10 class, but the B end should be an "improved dreadnaught" type. This car received a new B end and etched running board, among other things.
Some cars get used in closer to as-is condition. This one lost its running board and the A end ladders were shortened, but retains factory Bev Bel paint, although it did receive new decals for lube and wheel inspection stencils, and the yellow "keep off roof - no running board" label.
This Bev Bel painted "railbox" received new grabs and steps, lost the door "claws" and in the process got quite a bit of repainting, including representing overspray on the roof (I did that on the L&N car above too). The prototype LP&N cars were double door FMC cars, but again I already had this one.
I used this car as something of an experiment with acrylic weathering. It's stock except for the extended cushioned draft gear and some decals. Given the age of this car on my layout, I wanted to represent some advanced paint failure on the roof. I found photos of the prototypes number series lasting until 1978 or later with their original GN paint and running boards.
This is one of those flats with the funky brakewheel. Weathering isn't complete, but I did distress and weather the deck to look more like wood, painted the trucks per typical ATSF practice, along with adding ACI labels and lube stencils.
Rob Spangler
charlie9 ....this feature was especially handy when the flat was loaded with poles or serving as an idler for a load that overhang another car.. we used to get a lot of double and triple loads of treated poles with the brake shaft completely lowered and the pin lifters wired down so the cars could not be separated. (I can still smell the creosote) I guess treated wooden poles, like me, are quickly becoming a thing of the past.
....this feature was especially handy when the flat was loaded with poles or serving as an idler for a load that overhang another car.. we used to get a lot of double and triple loads of treated poles with the brake shaft completely lowered and the pin lifters wired down so the cars could not be separated. (I can still smell the creosote) I guess treated wooden poles, like me, are quickly becoming a thing of the past.
The gondola is a Proto2000 car, while the idler flat is a GSC-type from Walthers. I made the pole load from dowels, tapering them with a rasp and some coarse sandpaper:
An Athearn flat, lowered by removing both the frame and the floor. They were replaced by a piece of .060" sheet styrene, cemented within the remaining carbody, its top flush with the top of the sides and ends. I used contact cement to add an overhanging stripwood deck, and replaced the side-mounted brake wheel with an end-mounted one on a staff:
I also used the Athearn 50' flatcars with some ends from the Walthers GSC flats to create free-lanced bulkhead flats. These cars were also lowered and re-decked. The inside length is 43'9":
The 50' length is of little consequence when they're used boom idler cars for cranes, too. Lowered and re-decked, it's easy to add the vertical brake staff and homemade sides, equipment boxes, or tool houses:
This one's a 40'-er:
wjstix I recall 20 years ago or so the UP Historical Society magazine had an article on using the Athearn 50' double door boxcar as a 1936 UP car. IIRC the article said the car was a pretty accurate model of a UP boxcar (a "B-50-something" in UP nomenclature) and just needed a few improved details and proper paint and lettering.......
I recall 20 years ago or so the UP Historical Society magazine had an article on using the Athearn 50' double door boxcar as a 1936 UP car. IIRC the article said the car was a pretty accurate model of a UP boxcar (a "B-50-something" in UP nomenclature) and just needed a few improved details and proper paint and lettering.......
The Athearn 50' boxcar is also a very good stand-in, with a few minor modifications, for Espee's 69530-70029 and 64100-64924 series automobile cars of 1936-37. I modified the doors and sidesills to more closely match a prototype photo, and added only those storage tubes for the tie-down equipment which could be readily seen from trackside:
As for anyone bothered by real or perceived inaccuracies in the Athearn BB offerings, you can always experience the pleasures of kitbashing to either correct them or alter them to reflect your own choices of freelanced inaccuracies. This one has yet to be weighed before being put into service:
wp8thsub 7j43k I think I would amend the "just like" to "strikingly similar". Exactly. Most of the old blue box cars were kinda-sorta similar to all kinds of things. However, they typically took parts bin tooling and arranged it into "models" that weren't very good representations of anything in particular. Sure, you can find photos that look a lot like one here or there with regard to some details, but the comparison falls down when matching up roof and end stampings, corner posts, side sheets, doors and so on.
7j43k I think I would amend the "just like" to "strikingly similar".
I think I would amend the "just like" to "strikingly similar".
Exactly. Most of the old blue box cars were kinda-sorta similar to all kinds of things. However, they typically took parts bin tooling and arranged it into "models" that weren't very good representations of anything in particular. Sure, you can find photos that look a lot like one here or there with regard to some details, but the comparison falls down when matching up roof and end stampings, corner posts, side sheets, doors and so on.
I would rather have a layout full of models that have the right "feel" and can be lettered for different roads, rather than only having a few "perfect" cars that stand out as only being the "PRR car" or the "NYC car" and therefore look really out of place lettered for something else.
Neither the market or the available data made that possible in 1960. And today, we are seeing products not be available because they are made one time and then there is no market.
Permanent "stand ins" are fine for a lot of stuff in my view, but I'm building an 880 sq ft layout with 8 scale miles of double track, 130 locos, 900 freight cars, 200 passenger cars and staging for 30 trains.
At any price, many of the prototypes I want models of don't exist, have never been made, will never be made, and I don't have the time or the obsessive compulsive personality to scratch build them all.
Again, please forward all your unwanted early era Athearn cars here.
charlie9 I think many of us started out in this hobby with the attitude that plastic kit cars were just things for our engines to pull around our layouts. In all honesty, they were pretty good for what they were. Other than a few "advanced modelers" didn't most people get interested in more detailed models of freight cars with the advent of the "second generation" magazines such as Model Railroading, Mainline Modeler, etc? or am i confusing cause with effect? bottom line, the old cheapie cars still make up a large percentage of my fleet and they run around the layout just a good as any of the new stuff. with a few mechanical upgrades they are just fine and they can always be reworked and upgraded in the detail department. Charlie
I think many of us started out in this hobby with the attitude that plastic kit cars were just things for our engines to pull around our layouts. In all honesty, they were pretty good for what they were.
Other than a few "advanced modelers" didn't most people get interested in more detailed models of freight cars with the advent of the "second generation" magazines such as Model Railroading, Mainline Modeler, etc? or am i confusing cause with effect?
bottom line, the old cheapie cars still make up a large percentage of my fleet and they run around the layout just a good as any of the new stuff. with a few mechanical upgrades they are just fine and they can always be reworked and upgraded in the detail department.
I think you are confusing cause and effect, because I was building and super detailing cars to be more accurate long before those mags came along. MR and RMC were full of correct drawings and photos.
BUT, I never became obsessed with the idea that EVERY car on the layout had to be some museum quality piece documented to the day and time of the re-weigh stencils.
Been at this since 1968, built a lot of models, like detail and accuracy, but also pragmatic about building a large fleet for a large layout.
Feel free to send me all your unwanted Athearn or MDC cars of pre 1954 freelanced prototypes.
charlie9Other than a few "advanced modelers" didn't most people get interested in more detailed models of freight cars with the advent of the "second generation" magazines such as Model Railroading, Mainline Modeler, etc?
I never read those magazine but,my interest in better detailed cars started with RTR cars..Still I cling to my close enough/good enough modeling philosophy within reason of course.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Interestingly, also shown a few pages later is a 200 ton four truck flat car just like Athearns "heavy duty" flat car.
Interestingly, also shown a few pages later is a 200 ton four truck flat car just like Athearns "heavy duty" flat car.
I would have to question the "just like" in the above statement. I spent a huge amount of time building a model of NYC 499043 (page 140 of the '53 Cyc) based on the Athearn model, and I probably would have been ahead scratching it. If there truly is one just like the Athearn model, please mention the railroad and car number.
The major problem with the model, (for my project, and, I think, generally) is that the deck height is too high and the axle spacing is wrong. All the "four truck" flats I was able to find show an equal axle spacing that is not present in the Athearn model. And the couplers are body, not bolster, mounted. Too, the lower reinforcing rib on the body casting is much thicker than any I could find. Then, there's the hole pattern in the deck. I made a new one, as it was different than the Athearn. Happily, page 140 has both plans and a photo of the car--very convenient. Again, if there's a match to the model, please reveal the railroad and car number.
This model was my first HO car. I previously had one of the Lionel (O) four truck depressed flats--guess I'm just fascinated by unusual flats. Anyway, this model is so old that it came with rubber truck spring inserts (1958). It's still in a box here, somewhere--I bought an undec for my project.
Ed
BRAKIE Those short "heavy weight" passenger cars wasn't that far off..IIRC they was based on a Santa Fe design? Athearn passenger cars filled a "realistic" need-short passenger cars for the average home layout that feature 18 and 22" curves.. I still like those heavy weight cars.
Those short "heavy weight" passenger cars wasn't that far off..IIRC they was based on a Santa Fe design?
Athearn passenger cars filled a "realistic" need-short passenger cars for the average home layout that feature 18 and 22" curves..
I still like those heavy weight cars.
Actually, the ATSF passenger cars did not have the regular Pullman Standard Car Co belt rail at the windows, the Athearn cars do.
BUT, you are correct in that a great many heavyweight cars were not 80' or 85' long either.
Only the Athearn Pullman and Diner heavyweights are without reasonable prototypes.
I have large fleet of Athearn heavyweights, stream liners and ConCor 72' stream liners and have developed lots of detailing tricks for them. Many people have asked - what brand are those passenger cars, they look great!
Not the best picture, but here it is:
And, for a few more..........
Again in the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia,
page 313, fig 395 - a Du Pont "Chemical" tank car for ammonia or fertilizer solution that looks EXACTLY like the Athearn car,
And on the same several pages of tank cars, a number of single dome and three dome cars looking VERY close to the other two Athearn 40' tank cars.
And on page 318, fig 410 - the famous Heinz pickle car.
And on page 503, fig 763 - the 200 ton Union Pacific wrecking crane built by Bucyrus-Erie Company - looks just like my Athearn model.
And for you critics of the Athearn passenger cars, on page 542 and 543 there are drawings of SP daylight passenger cars clearly showing them to be only 79' - 2" OVER THE BUFFERS, making the actual car bodies only 77' - so Athearn only "compressed" them by 5' to get their 72' streamlined cars.
A review of all the passenger cars listed in the 1940 cyclopedia shows a great many of the lightweight cars built in the late 1930's to be less than 80' long - so, while freelanced for obvious reasons of production economy, the Athearn cars are not as "wrong" as most people think.
So it seems that a great deal of the original Blue Box line can be conveniently found in the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia - imagine that.
"made up"? - I think not - "exactly to scale"? - well what model is?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Pick on the Blue Box cars are you want, but a study of pictures from the 40's and 50's show most all of them to be very "representative" and reflect the proportions and flavor of that era even if they are not rivet perfect.
Pick on the Blue Box cars are you want, but a study of pictures from the 40's and 50's show most all of them to be very "representative" and reflect the proportions and flavor of that era even if they are not rivet perfect.
My fright car fleet is mostly modern BB freight cars.BB cars has been my car of choice over the years..I never cared for MDC/Roundhouse cars.
-------------------------------
But what do I know, I just have a library of "actual" books and magazines.
-----------------------------
I have several books that deals with my favorite railroad locomotives mostly C&O,B&O,N&W,DT&I, and Chessie.I have some books on ISLs by Lance Mindheim,Chessie the railroad kitten,American Shortline Guide,Ghost Railroads of Kentucky and my latest Bradford-The Railroad Town.A book on PRR's history in Bradford,Ohio.
I never deem it necessary to buy a ton of books that I have no real interest in.
Just because YOU have never seen it........
And yes they were the exception, not the rule......
Shown on page 201, fig 186, of the the 1940 Car Builders' Cyclopedia, WESTERN MARYLAND 50-ton, 50 foot (not 51' or 53' or whatever) all welded flat car with Duryea cushion underframe. Build by Greenville Steel Car Company - equipped with a side mounted brake wheel stand.
If I can successfully scan it, I will post a picture for all you non believers as I have not found a picture on that "wonderfull" thing call the internet.
Athearn did mistakenly, or purposely not extend the decking out to the sides of the stake pockets - BUT - on this same page of the Cyclopedia, there are are four other flat cars - not one of the other four flat cars have there decking extended past the sides - so that might not have been as "universal" at that time as you think.
It is clear to me that the Athearn car is a composite of the cars shown in the 1940 Cyoclopedia. Interestingly, also shown a few pages later is a 200 ton four truck flat car just like Athearns "heavy duty" flat car.
And, most of the pictures of the 50 flat cars reflect many of the roadnames Athearn offered their cars in - NKP, C&O, WM, PRR, UP, etc.
There are also 50' gondola's about 17 pages later that look just like the Athearn cars.
I will check later for the other car types in the Blue Box line - anyone else out there have a the 1940 Cyclopedia? 1352 pages of prototype FACTS for someone who models the 40's or 50's - like me - not just speculation.
Sheldon.
Well Jim for the 50' Gon, there is nothing you can do as there is no prototype for that car. It was designed by Irv to fit in the same box as the 40' box car and also utilyze the frame from the 50' flat car. This frame also causes a problem in the the side of the Gon should be straight if you use a the drop frame, it would be best to used the frame from the 50' boxcar on this gon. Although incorrect many of the old Herald King sets for Gons could be used to do this car, I have done a number (when I did not know any better) and I have three of them siiting there that need paint and decals.
Also the 40' Box is a 1944 AAR that was only purchased by the IC as it's closest prototype. I have about twenty of these kits and may use them as fillers with various decals.
I know the metal sided reefer is a good approximation of one class of PFE reefers.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
didn't almost all flat cars have a brake wheel shaft that would drop down through the mechanism so the wheel would be flat on the floor? otherwise, end loading would be a problem unless the car was turned a end toward the dock. next time i can get in touch with one of my old car knocker buddies, i will pick his brain about flat car hand brakes.
and by the way, while on the subject of flat cars, i think they are the most dangerous car on the railroad. you can't see the darned things in the dark but, that's another story and an incident i lied my way out of.
charlie
I recall 20 years ago or so the UP Historical Society magazine had an article on using the Athearn 50' double door boxcar as a 1936 UP car. IIRC the article said the car was a pretty accurate model of a UP boxcar (a "B-50-something" in UP nomenclature) and just needed a few improved details and proper paint and lettering.
The Athearn heavyweight cars are based on ATSF cars for the most part, if not all.
charlie9in response to Brakie
Charlie,Let me try again and I'll try to be clearer...
Every 50' flat car I seen had a standard flat car brake wheel mounted on the B end on a short round shaft.
Like this 53 footer.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/920-104108
Dave,
Someone else mention that it may be a WM car as well. They came equipped with that 'fold down' brake stand on the side. The brake stands only lasted a short time.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
charlie9 my main issue with athearn is the brake wheel mount on the flat cars. i worked on the railroad from the time i was 16 years old and i never saw that kind of handbrake. piggy back flats had the handbrake side mounted but that was obviously because it would have been in the way of the bridge plates otherwise. this doesn't mean that there were never any cars like the athearn flats, i just never say any myself. charlie
my main issue with athearn is the brake wheel mount on the flat cars. i worked on the railroad from the time i was 16 years old and i never saw that kind of handbrake. piggy back flats had the handbrake side mounted but that was obviously because it would have been in the way of the bridge plates otherwise.
this doesn't mean that there were never any cars like the athearn flats, i just never say any myself.
Hi!
I understand that a number of the BB cars were generic equivilents of ATSF or SP prototypes. This is especially true of some of the passenger cars.
Remember, Irv Athearn was located in California and those two RRs were the majority there.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central