I am starting to get interested in conducting "realistic operations" on my layout which raises a basic question.
My layout is fairly large with a double main line. My principal objective, when I first designed it, was simply to "run trains". As a lone operator, I can generally run four trains simultaneously, two trains on each main line track.
My question is: what do those of you who conduct operations do about a continuous loop layout regarding "destinations"?
Here is an example. I have a farm siding and I want to move a series of covered hoppers west to a 4-track siding which I will treat as an interchange. Headed west, it is not that far away from the farm siding - - maybe 20 feet on a 200 foot main line. To me, it doesn't make sense to have a local pick up the covered hoppers at the farm siding and then fairly quickly drop them off at the interchange. Meanwhile, I may be running three other trains on the layout. So, to me, it makes sense to let the local make several runs around the layout before dropping off the cars at the interchange. Of course, it is not prototypical, but is it acceptable? What do others do in this situation?
Rich
Alton Junction
Anything YOU want to do is acceptable.
It just depends on how close to prototypical operations you want to get and what parts of "operation" do you want to model.
I thought you were using the 4 track yard as staging?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman Anything YOU want to do is acceptable. It just depends on how close to prototypical operations you want to get and what parts of "operation" do you want to model. I thought you were using the 4 track yard as staging?
Someone on that other thread suggested the use of the 4-track siding for staging which I am contemplating.
Maybe my use of the term "interchange" is incorrect in this context. But, I thought that one of the suggestions was to use the 4-track siding as staging.
In that thread, Mike remarked, "Unless I break up or somehow turn the train, if a train goes into staging as a westbound, it will emerge from staging as another westbound when you decide to send it off again. You can then consider using 4-Track Yard as a fiddle yard. In effect, it's your connection to the rest of the North American rail network".
That concept appeals to me, and I may be incorrectly referring to that activity as taking place at an interchange. Help me with this concept and the correct terminology.
dehusman Anything YOU want to do is acceptable.
I appreciate that notion that anything is acceptable, but I am just curious what others do on a continuous loop layout?
Do you arrive at your destination as soon as you reach it, or do you bypass it the first time around and make one or more loops before ending that part of the run?
Rich, here is what I would do if I were to operate a continuous loop layout.
I´d write a train order, i.e. "storybook" for each train I plan to operate. In this storybook, I write down with what cars I want to start out, which cars to take where, which cars to set out and pick-up where and finally, where the train will end. I´d also determine the number of laps the train has to run between each stop, which could vary to simulate distance.
I can't tell you what I do since I haven't had a "loop" layout in about 30-40 years.
If you want to roll up some miles you can do a lap or two between each switching event. You might even want to fomalize it that every place is 2 laps fron the next station.
If you are just switching and concerned about car forwarding that works fine. It only becomes a problem when you try to incorporate the operations of the trains in a prototypical manner. Running a train through the same place multiple times gets problematic then.
Or.
You can consider the layout a smaller slice of the railroad and just do the local work out of your yrad and let the through trains do laps as interference. In that case the local only goes through any place once and every lap the through trains are a different train.
Thanks, Dave, that helps.
Am I using the term "interchange" correctly?
Sir Madog Rich, here is what I would do if I were to operate a continuous loop layout. I´d write a train order, i.e. "storybook" for each train I plan to operate. In this storybook, I write down with what cars I want to start out, which cars to take where, which cars to set out and pick-up where and finally, where the train will end. I´d also determine the number of laps the train has to run between each stop, which could vary to simulate distance.
I like that, Ulrich, thanks.
Our layout started out as a continuous loop single track main layout until the mid 1990's. we then rebuilt it as a single track point to point layout with two long passing sidings. Eventually, after expanding to our current layout, I double tracked the entire layout, and restored the continuous loop design. We still run point to point with the locals, but four the unit trains which consist of an eastbound coal drag and a general merchandise freight, and a westbound empty hopper train and a similar merchandise train continuously run. Since I'm not modeling the West Virginia coal fields, or the steel mills in Pittsburgh or Buffalo, these trains can keep reappearing like a line of east and westbound traffic. This leaves my sons and I to run our local freight peddlers and passenger trains in between the unit trains. Our two main classification yards represent staging for the locals as well as additional cars for the two general merchandise trains. The nice thing is that We can run the four trains without concern and still have fun building our local trains and set off and pick up in between. If you have the space, leave your class yard leads long enough to grab a string of cars for shuffling without interfering with the main lines. When I was a yard conductor in Buffalo, we knew we could get the switcher and 14 cars up to the signal for the CSX main without tripping the light, and that allowed us to build our trains unopposed. The same applies with our model Railroad. I try to emphasize to the kids that the mainline traffic has to keep going. As far as setting off and picking up, we only have a couple of sidings that require tying up the main for any length of time, and it's usually just a drop off point for one boxcar, so you can get in and out before having to stop the through trains. The central point of our layout is an industrial yard with a refinery and other small industries. The local can duck into this yard for set off and pickup. For a typical night of train operation, it works well when three of us are running the yards. The guy in the middle, at the industrial yard gets the toughest job since he has to assemble east and westbound cars for pickup, and then handle the set off from both yards.
-Stan
Rich, back in the days of smaller continuous loop layouts, lot of guys did designate a "number of laps" to simulate greater distance - it is a fine idea.
My layout is continuous, but there is a point at which the mainline is hidden, and in that hidden area is a wye junction to the staging. It is there that all trains "terminate" during operating sessions.
But for "fun run" or display running they simply "reappear" at the other end of the line.
My staging is designed to allow trains to be turned or to continue in the same direction. So the west bound empty coal train, and the east bound loaded coal train never change direction, simply reappearing for the next session. But the passenger train that went east in the morning can return to the west in the afternoon.
As for freight locals, they all work out of my one visible yard, all local traffic starts and returns there. Mainline trains pickup and drop off large cuts of cars or whole consists can end and originate in the yard as well as in the staging.
The whole concept is to really only model one major "place" along the mainline and simulate the realistic coming and going of trains, people and cargo.
And in addition to the main staging, there are a number junctions along the main that are also supported by more through staging. These staging areas simulate both interchanges with other roads and additional routes of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
In display mode these junctions and their hidden staging provide four completely isolated loops for continuous display running.
Others may operate differently, but I am not comfortable "controlling" more than one train at a time unless it is simply a display loop. My operating sessions are designed for a dispatcher and an operator for each train. Local trains are generally operated by a crew of two people.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The whole concept is to really only model one major "place" along the mainline and simulate the realistic coming and going of trains, people and cargo.
Thanks, Shedon, that concept of really only modeling one major "place" along the mainline is a recurring comment about layout design and operations, as I am beginning to find out.
One idea, frequently floated for small layouts with short loops, is to let one lap of the loop represent either X miles or Y minutes of running time - the same as running laps between siding and interchange.
My own layout is, in schematic, a big loop. The visible portion comprises two stations and their connecting track, plus an independent point-to-point shortline which is modeled complete from end to end. The only time anything will orbit the entire loop is when I am either running in a newly-activated piece of self-propelled rolling stock or when I want to run a couple of trains to entertain mundane visitors. At all other times trains leave staging, do their thing and either terminate at the major station or return to staging. Trains leaving the major station terminate in staging, there to remain until their timetable-ordained return.
Since I'm working to a master plan which hardened into granite a long time ago I designed the track plan to suit the operations. Actually, the timetable came first!
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The link here: http://www.modelrailcast.com/media/PDFs/R_n_D_Layout_012810.pdf shows the 1.0 version of the Rawhide & Duct Tape on which I am a regular crew member. The one thing that is incorrect in the diagram from when I began operating on the layout is that staging was and is actually through staging and the Salt Lake (now San Jose) end is connected to the the track through Clarksville (now Gilroy). What was the Oakland end of staging is now Los Angeles and the directions have been reversed.
As you can see, the railroad is a twice around single oval with passing sidings and some "towns" which have industrial switching. If you're inside the layout, west is to your right, east to your left (the exact opposite of what is shown on the diagram since it was decided by Dave, the layout owner, to mimic the SP Coast Division to the extent possible). Through trains go either from San Jose to LA or vice versa and and all through freights stop at Roseville (now Watsonville Junction) to drop off and pick up cars. All local freights are operated as turns and originate out of Roseville (Watsonville Jct.). On the R&D 1..0, there were 3 turns, the Clarksville (Gilroy) Turn, the Stockton (now Castroville) Turn, and the Monterey Turn (that's Cannery Row in the diagram, but Cannery Row is in Monterey so it really doesn't matter how it's labeled here).
Local freights are run when they have been built by the yardmaster. In version 1.0, generally the Stockton (Castroville) Turn was ready to go first. When the switching is complete (we use car cards & waybills), the train is run back to Roseville (Watsonville Jct).. It's the same for other turns.
Dispatching is done by track warrant, although TT&TO was tried and found wanting due to the fact that the railroad really isn't big enough (12x27 ft) to make TT&TO feasible. If not enough people show up to allow for a dispatcher, we run under VFR (Visual Flight Rules), not prototypical perhaps, but it works.
Trains are run by sequence, not timetable. The clipboards for through trains are kept in a small plastic tub and are labeled aphabetically. When you finish a run, the clipboard goes in the back of queue to maintain the sequence maintaining alphabetic order (i.e. "A" creeps up in the queue until it is first again and so on with the other letters).
Through trains restage themselves with one exception. The "Del Monte" (Monterey to San Francisco & return) is restaged for the next next session by Dave between sessions using the simple expedient of backing it to the nearest passing track and running around it (it's got an SP passenger GP9, which had dual controls). Dave wrote up the R&D for the January-March 2010 "Branchline" publication of the Pacific Coast Region of the NMRA. His description and a few pictures start at page 5 here: http://www.pcrnmra.org/pcr/branch/BranchLine_jan-mar10.pdf
The R&D, despite its size, is a practice layout (what Joe Fugate calls a "chainsaw" layout). Most of it is on flush doors. There is an R&D 2.0, which expanded the Monterey branch halfway around the room. Cannery Row became Ord (as in Fort Ord), Monterey is to the left of Ord and Pacific Grove has a small yard with a couple of "industrial spurs".
There will be no R&D 3.0. Dave's in the process of getting permits for a new building (his wife wants the space currently occupied by the R&D) that will allow for a partially double deck version of the SP Coast Division from Watsonville Jct to King City (IIRC), it's been a couple of months since I've seen the layout plan). The Monterey Branch will be on the second deck. The railroad will be run under TT&TO rules.
One of the things you didn't mention is whether or not you have passing sidings. You'll need those even on a double track layout to keep the local freights out of the way of trains on the main.
Andre
andrechapelon One of the things you didn't mention is whether or not you have passing sidings. You'll need those even on a double track layout to keep the local freights out of the way of trains on the main.
Andre, no, I do not have any passing sidings. Since I have not conducted any operations in the past, I did not see any reason to build in any passing sidings. Maybe I should have, but I didn't.
I ran into a similar situation with my layout when I started developing operations on my layout. Here's my page on how I did it.
http://chatanuga.org/WLMRops.html
Basically, when an eastbound train, for example, leaves Chicago for Pittsburgh, it heads out the east end of the yard and runs eastbound around the layout. If it has cars to drop off or pick up at Mansfield, I'll stop it to perform that work when I deem it to be time and when there is room in the yard to drop off cars. It then continues eastbound until I decide it arrives at Pittsburgh where it will enter the west end of the yard and be broken down to send the cars back west. To keep track of where the cars are located (west of Mansfield to Chicago, in Mansfield, or east of Mansfield to Pittsburgh), I use color-coded dividers in my holders for the car cards on the front of the layout.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
richhotrain Am I using the term "interchange" correctly?
Interchange is when a railroad gives or recieves cars to or from another railroad. The CNW went to Fremont, NE. It handed off cars to the UP who took them further west (and vice versa). That exchange is interchange.
dehusman richhotrain Am I using the term "interchange" correctly? Interchange is when a railroad gives or recieves cars to or from another railroad. The CNW went to Fremont, NE. It handed off cars to the UP who took them further west (and vice versa). That exchange is interchange.
OK, that makes sense.
If a local brings a string of loaded covered hoppers from a farm siding, and parks them on that 4-track siding, and then a main line loco picks them up and takes them 500 miles to a processing plant, what is the 4 track siding for operations purposes? On the other thread, Mike called it "staging", but I am trying to rationalize it in railroad terms.
Rich,
Those four tracks are a yard. In most cases rail car movements work like this:
Car is delivered to siding empty to be loaded, car is loaded.
Car is picked up by "local" and moved to nearby yard.
Car is placed in train headed to destination city, mainline train travels to yard in destination city over mainline and terminates there.
Car is switched into a consist for a local, local delivers car to destination siding for unloading.
IF, the origin and destination are on different railroads, then part of that mainline trip involves "interchange" or transferring that car (and likely many others) from the trackage and handling of one railroad to the other.
Only in modern unit trains do cars move directly from source to destination, and even then, not always.
Now, about trackage - in most urban/industrial areas VERY few industry sidings are served by turnouts directly on the mainline, even if the industry is right along the mainline. More typically industrial areas are served by separate "belt" or branch line trackage. OR in the case of industries directly on the mainline, there is often a passing siding, sometimes very long, with the individual industrial sidings branching off from the siding, not the mainline.
Along the PRR mainline of the Northeast corridor (now NS?), there are four, five and six tracks in places as the mainline is four in some spots, two in others, and various industrial and branch line feeder sidings come and go.
A "local" pulls into such a siding and does a lot of its work without blocking the main, and needs permission from the CTC dispatcher to go out onto the main.
This also speaks to your question about caboose movements - in those days, they just left it sit somewhere in the area, out of the way of the movements they needed to make.
On my layout, most industries are served by a belt line, a separate branch line that feeds directly into/out of the yard. Locals only need mainline access for a few moves - another reason it all works fine without DCC.
And this is very prototypical of most urban industrial areas or big rural industries like grain loading.
Staging can be anything you want it to be. It could represent the next division HQ on your own line or it can be an interchange with another RR.
Since there's usually limited space available and I have nothing like industries in mine, it's just a fiddle yard, which is where I "interchange" with my rolling stock drawers. Some people have giant staging yards where they classify and build trains that will return from staging. Others are like me, this is where the big 0-5-0 does the work.
I'd like to throw out one concept here that will help clarify how you think about 4-Track Yard. What Milepost is it?
You could say its MP0, where a train originates,
You could say it's MP100 (an entirely arbitrary number, but we need a # here), which is where the train terminates.
And if you had the time, space and money you could have two separate staging yards there, so you could truly have MP0 be an entirely separate location from MP100.
Instead, in reality you have one location that needs to be both: MP1/MP100. In the end, it's easiest for me to think of 4-Track Yard as being in another dimension, a sort of black box that can send out both EAST and WEST trains and then magically transform those trains so they are different, if you want them to be, or the same, if that works better, for say, unit trains. 4-track yard is both HERE and THERE at the same time, a sort of quantum yard where anything's possible.
Essentially, a staging yard on any continuous run layout is what you make of it. For all practical purposes, it has no direct real life function. Rather it is a means to substitute for a number of real life locations. For instance, staging in your case could be an interchange with 2 different RRs (one East and one West of your RR's location), it can be an interchange with yet 2 or more other lines; and it can serve as a branch or industry on your own RR. For instance, that's where loaded log cars originate that can go to a mill, as that works great if have room for the mill, but not the forest or the branch line. Or staging could be a steel mill that ships hot slabs for further rolling/processing at a location on your layout.
Finally, another somewhat metaphorical definition of staging. Many people have made a comparison between ops and the theater. Both your layout and the stage on a theater are where people/things perform. The staging area on your layout is essentially the same as the dressing room at a theater. That's where actors go to prepare the illusion they are about to perform of taking on the persona of the character s/he is playing. You, as the playwright, get to decide what that character is -- and very few plays involve just one actor -- so think of each yard track as the dressing room for different character. You decide whether they enter from the right or left, what they'll say, what they'll do and where they go when they're not needed on stage.
BTW, extended contemplation on this has led me to conclude that you can do whatever works in staging for you, all they way from my simplistic suggestion to just randomly write E or W as the Return To location up to complex details of the forwarding the car will undergo as it travels WAY off layout to pick up another load.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
richhotrainandrechapelonOne of the things you didn't mention is whether or not you have passing sidings. You'll need those even on a double track layout to keep the local freights out of the way of trains on the main. Andre, no, I do not have any passing sidings. Since I have not conducted any operations in the past, I did not see any reason to build in any passing sidings. Maybe I should have, but I didn't.
andrechapelonOne of the things you didn't mention is whether or not you have passing sidings. You'll need those even on a double track layout to keep the local freights out of the way of trains on the main.
Almost all the layouts I operate on have a loop, but NONE of them utilize it in the operation. But they do all have passing sidings.
Here is my loop layout.(Note 1. should say the B&O interchange tracks connect to the PRR interchange tracks and not the WM to make the loop.)
The B&O and PRR interchange tracks represent both ends of the layout and are connected together on the actual layout to make the loop. One track is the B&O interchange at one end, and the other track is the PRR interchange at the other end. There is one more track used as a runaround track for switching either interchange track. When a train goes to the interchange, it drops all of the cars it took and picks up the cars that are there for it. The loco and caboose swap ends of the train and it returns back the way it came. It does not continue on in the same direction.
I have four operators when we operate and my RR is fairly small, only 9X24. One for the main C&A RR, one for the Western Maryland coal branch on the upper level, One for the Port, and one operator for the Yard at Brunswick.
As far as car movements go, The local trains that go around switching the industries don't generally take cars from one industry and place them at the next one. The trains pick up cars from all industries on their run and take them to the yard for classification to be sent out on another train for delivery to the next destination. Trains also take cars from the yard which are destine for industries on their run. So the trains move about on their routes picking up and setting out cars, but don't set out any cars they just picked up.
Some trains or routes that I run on my loop layout are: B&O interchange run; PRR interchange run; Eastbound local; Westbound local; Port interchange run; WM eastbound turn coal drag; WM eastbound turn. Most trains originate from a yard and return to the yard. If you have two yards, there can be a transfer run between yards.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Texas Zepher richhotrainandrechapelonOne of the things you didn't mention is whether or not you have passing sidings. You'll need those even on a double track layout to keep the local freights out of the way of trains on the main. Andre, no, I do not have any passing sidings. Since I have not conducted any operations in the past, I did not see any reason to build in any passing sidings. Maybe I should have, but I didn't.Ouch, that kills my comment. I was going to say that just because the layout has a loop in it, doesn't mean that the operations has to use it. Almost all the layouts I operate on have a loop, but NONE of them utilize it in the operation. But they do all have passing sidings.
richhotrain If a local brings a string of loaded covered hoppers from a farm siding, and parks them on that 4-track siding, and then a main line loco picks them up and takes them 500 miles to a processing plant, what is the 4 track siding for operations purposes? On the other thread, Mike called it "staging", but I am trying to rationalize it in railroad terms.
I think you may be mixing uses or are confused about the suggestion for staging.
If you consider the 4 track YARD as staging. then you won't be setting cars out there. Staging represents the "rest of the world". From the standpoint of operating your layout, a train holding in the staging yard is "invisible". It doesn't become visible until leaves the staging yard.
If you are building trains there then that means you are considering it a switching yard. So it is a visible part of the layout.
Why are you setting out the cars at the 4 track yard instead of taking cars to the yard where the engines would already be?
Gee, Rich, I think you are making it more complicated than need be?
If I understand your first Q correctly that is.
With my loops, I consider them to be the "main line" and I run the trains around and around and around as long as I want to to simulate the "real world" main line distance travelled to get to another point in the "real world". It matters not to me what they "pass while getting there"..siding, yard, engine servicing etc.
I just run right pass whatever is not needed to"get there".
The reason I HAVE loops is to simulate "long distances" between stops/facilities.
The rest of the layout except the loops is a "blur" that "doesn't exist" until My train has "reached that destination", then it proceeds to do its "job" there at the destination, and then the "main line" {loop} then "doesn't exist" to the job at hand at the destination..
If you inderstand what I mean.
Just because I am coming upon the engine servicing facility sidings DOESN'T MEAN I have to immediately stop at it or stop everytime I complete the loop past it. I stop there only when the train has completed to loop for the umpteenthtime that represents the distance travelled to NEED to go the servicing facility, then I stop there.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I copied Rich's trackplan here to orient those coming to the discussion later on.
Please note that the heavy outside line is double-track, that the square corners are really curves (simpler to do corners here) and there are crossovers at strategic locations between the east and West mains to facilitate traffic and switching. East is East, but West is actually the opposite direction from indicated.
We've covered a lot of ground and it looks like Rich has some tantalizing prospects for interesting operations with his layout.
The first is it looks like 4-Track Yard will serve admirably as the staging yard. It can hold trains, represent various destinations, and serve as a fiddle yard to move cars on and off the layout. Since it's a continuous run, it will also support loads in/empties out sequences for open top cars, as loads can all move in one direction and empties in the opposite direction. passenger trains can also move on and off the layout there.
I'd suggest making the Freight Yard a division point, where trains go to be serviced, broken down to pass cars between locals, and where a lot of the traffic on your line originates (oil terminal, mfg district) and others terminate.
Passenger trains can originate there at the downtown station. Commuter trains go as far West as the Suburban station and return. Through trains continue on to staging. Passenger trains also go west from Downtown Station to staging. I could see at least one through train each way each day. Maybe a local or two, also, plus morning and evening commuter trains. Except for the commuters, all trains go to staging and are turned to return to Downtown stations. or you could swap locos, let the train continue in same direction, but with a new loco, so when it reappears from staging, it's coming from the east as what appears to be a different train.
For freight, a through train in each direcetion could be all that's needed, along with corresponding locals. Here I'll mention something, which is while you're running traffic out of the freight yard in both directions, you've got more locations to work when going east from the freightyard than going west. What you could do is build the train in the Freight Yard, send it west as if it's a Westbound originated from there, but have cars that would worked once you've left 4-Track Yard. That let's you switch in Freight Yard, hold the train there untol you're ready, then send it West to cricle around through 4-track, then start working the industries as if they came from staging. In essence, you'd be using one of your Freight Yard Tracks as an extra staging track.
So that's a start to coming up with a timetable sequence, too.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Now, about trackage - in most urban/industrial areas VERY few industry sidings are served by turnouts directly on the mainline, even if the industry is right along the mainline. More typically industrial areas are served by separate "belt" or branch line trackage. OR in the case of industries directly on the mainline, there is often a passing siding, sometimes very long, with the individual industrial sidings branching off from the siding, not the mainline. This also speaks to your question about caboose movements - in those days, they just left it sit somewhere in the area, out of the way of the movements they needed to make.
I see that quite a bit in the Chicago area; that is, a "belt" or branch line trackage. Unfortunately for me, my completed layout features a double main line, and I have no room to build a branch line. For the most part, my industries are directly connected by spur tracks to the main line. It would seem to me that most home layouts, being smaller than larger, cannot afford the space to build a branch line, relying instead on spurs off the main line.
Regarding cabooses, that issue always confuses me. I run all of my main line freight trains with a caboose. So, that raises the question in my mind about the use of cabooses on locals where a yard loco is picking up or dropping off strings of cars on a spur line. I like the idea of just leaving the caboose at the drop off point and then picking it up once again when it returns to take the string of cars back to the yard. So, a yard loco could run on the main line without a caboose in tow?
richhotrainIt would seem to me that most home layouts, being smaller than larger, cannot afford the space to build a branch line, relying instead on spurs off the main line.
Certainly, the prototype practice is to place industrial spurs along a siding next to the main. Like a lot of things in model railroading, some compromise is usually necessary. With the double-track main, it's easy enough to treat crossovers as the ends of sidings and not sweat the small stuff that can't be shoehorned in.
richhotrainRegarding cabooses, that issue always confuses me. I run all of my main line freight trains with a caboose. So, that raises the question in my mind about the use of cabooses on locals where a yard loco is picking up or dropping off strings of cars on a spur line. I like the idea of just leaving the caboose at the drop off point and then picking it up once again when it returns to take the string of cars back to the yard. So, a yard loco could run on the main line without a caboose in tow?
Generally, a switcher can operate inside yard limits without the need for a caboose to carry the markers. You could have yard limits extend from Freight Yard to the Farm siding to allow for operations without a caboose.
On the other hand, you can tack on a caboose before leaving Freight Yard, run to Farm, leave caboose on one main, take care, pull cars to main, get caboose on rear of train for return to Freight Yard. If you can physically manage that switching scenario within the limits of in-place track and turnouts, you're good to go with that. You may need to leave a traffic window in your schedule to let permit the local to operate, but that's the way the 1:1 does it sometimes, too, when it needs to.
mlehman Generally, a switcher can operate inside yard limits without the need for a caboose to carry the markers. You could have yard limits extend from Freight Yard to the Farm siding to allow for operations without a caboose.
Technically yard limits have nothing to do with whether or not there is a caboose. That is entirely decided by labor agreements No prototype rules that I have read require a caboose on any train.
Really the question is what is the concept of the trains he is running. In almost every case that has been discussed a switcher runs engine light or cab hop out to a single industry, pulls the entire track and that entire cut becomes at some later point a train. How does he spot the industries?
The question is what is the concept? Is Rich running unit trains? In that case forget the switcher, not needed. Run the road power and caboose out to the industry, pick up the cars and you have a train. the switcher never touches a car.
If he is not running unit trains, pulling all the cars in one whack is b o r i n g.
Run a local out, an engine 10 spotters and a caboose, switch the first industry. That means pick up the some of the cars and spot some new ones, then go to the next industry, pick up some cars and spot some cars, then maybe the next industry the same, then bring the cut of pulls back to the freight yard, Let the switcher switch it up. A train runs out of staging, makes a couple loops, and sets out SOME of its cars and picks up the cars going in its directions. Then it makes whatever orbits required and goes back to staging. Another train in the other direction runs out of staging, loops as desired, stops at the freight yard, sets out cars, picks up cars going in its direction, loops as required and goes back to staging.
ALL the cars the through freights set out at the freigh tyard go to indistries served by the local. The switcher builds the next local. It runs around the layout switching a few cars here a few cars there, and comes back to the yard. If Rich has problems with spurs only in one direction then run two locals, one in each direction One switches only clockwise industries, one only switches counter clockwise industries. If you have industries with facing and trailing point switches on each main then make at least two loops with each local, clockwise on main 1 for one loop, then crossover adn run clockwise on main 2 with the same local, then back to the yard. An engine leaves with spotters and a caboose, makes one or more laps, comes back with cars to switch and caboose. Very simple, very prototyical, more fun than a straight shove.
He is up to 4 trains on the schedule (a local and through freight in each direction) , plus the switcher in the freight yard, he has a plan to switch every industry. He gets to use cabooses. He has only used 2 of the 4 staging tracks. Running that whole sequence can take a good couple of hours by himself. With two people, one person can run the yard and locals and the other can run the through freights and passenger trains. Life is good.
dehusman Really the question is what is the concept of the trains he is running. In almost every case that has been discussed a switcher runs engine light or cab hop out to a single industry, pulls the entire track and that entire cut becomes at some later point a train. How does he spot the industries? The question is what is the concept? Is Rich running unit trains? In that case forget the switcher, not needed. Run the road power and caboose out to the industry, pick up the cars and you have a train. the switcher never touches a car. If he is not running unit trains, pulling all the cars in one whack is b o r i n g. Run a local out, an engine 10 spotters and a caboose, switch the first industry. That means pick up the some of the cars and spot some new ones, then go to the next industry, pick up some cars and spot some cars, then maybe the next industry the same, then bring the cut of pulls back to the freight yard, Let the switcher switch it up. A train runs out of staging, makes a couple loops, and sets out SOME of its cars and picks up the cars going in its directions. Then it makes whatever orbits required and goes back to staging. Another train in the other direction runs out of staging, loops as desired, stops at the freight yard, sets out cars, picks up cars going in its direction, loops as required and goes back to staging. ALL the cars the through freights set out at the freight yard go to indistries served by the local. The switcher builds the next local. It runs around the layout switching a few cars here a few cars there, and comes back to the yard. If Rich has problems with spurs only in one direction then run two locals, one in each direction One switches only clockwise industries, one only switches counter clockwise industries. If you have industries with facing and trailing point switches on each main then make at least two loops with each local, clockwise on main 1 for one loop, then crossover adn run clockwise on main 2 with the same local, then back to the yard. An engine leaves with spotters and a caboose, makes one or more laps, comes back with cars to switch and caboose. Very simple, very prototyical, more fun than a straight shove. He is up to 4 trains on the schedule (a local and through freight in each direction) , plus the switcher in the freight yard, he has a plan to switch every industry. He gets to use cabooses. He has only used 2 of the 4 staging tracks. Running that whole sequence can take a good couple of hours by himself. With two people, one person can run the yard and locals and the other can run the through freights and passenger trains. Life is good.
The question is what is the concept? Is Rich running unit trains? In that case forget the switcher, not needed. Run the road power and caboose out to the industry, pick up the cars and you have a train. the switcher never touches a car. If he is not running unit trains, pulling all the cars in one whack is b o r i n g.
ALL the cars the through freights set out at the freight yard go to indistries served by the local. The switcher builds the next local. It runs around the layout switching a few cars here a few cars there, and comes back to the yard. If Rich has problems with spurs only in one direction then run two locals, one in each direction One switches only clockwise industries, one only switches counter clockwise industries. If you have industries with facing and trailing point switches on each main then make at least two loops with each local, clockwise on main 1 for one loop, then crossover adn run clockwise on main 2 with the same local, then back to the yard. An engine leaves with spotters and a caboose, makes one or more laps, comes back with cars to switch and caboose. Very simple, very prototyical, more fun than a straight shove.
Dave, this is a very informative discussion, and I thank you for it.
I took the liberty to bold and italicize certain excerpts for emphasis.
The one thing that I would beg indulgence for is what I will call the Operations Newbie Syndrome. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk, and you have to learn to walk before you can run.
When I think about it, until I began to get interested in prototypical operations, I was running unit trains. Connect a road loco or consist to a string of mixed rolling stock sitting on a track in the yard and take off running loops around the layout.
I sure don't want to limit my operations to running road power and a caboose out to the industry to pick up the cars, never having a switcher touch a car.
As one moves into the operations phase of the hobby, pulling all the cars in one whack may be boring, but it is the Crawling phase of early (operations) childhood - - - LOL. Now, don't get me wrong. I am not thin skinned or offended by the comment. I understand your indignation at the thought of it. It's just that it is easier at the outset not to get bogged down with so much picking and spotting of individual cars.
Some of my industry spurs only have facing points, while others have both facing points and trailing points. Your discussion about the number and use of locals to switch these industries is very helpful and informative. Your suggested moves may be more prototypical, but not necesarily very simple, at least for an operations newbie. A straight shove may not be much fun for an experienced operations guy, but the alternative methods are much more challenging for an operations newbie.
Dave, thanks again for this discussion.
richhotrain When I think about it, until I began to get interested in prototypical operations, I was running unit trains. Connect a road loco or consist to a string of mixed rolling stock sitting on a track in the yard and take off running loops around the layout.
A unit train is a train made up of cars traveling on ONE waybill. They were invented in the 1960's. A grain train in 1950 would have been 50 cars of grain, each car with its own waybill. They could have all been the same commodity from the same shipper to the same consignee, but each waybill would have on car number on it. With a unit grain train, there is ONE waybill with 50 car numbers on it. All the cars are from the same shipper going to the same consignee. There are some minor variations, but that's the basic gist.
So technically a train of mixed freight is not and could not be a unit train since each car has a different waybill.
Some railroads consider an intermodal train a unit train because all the CARS are from the same shipper (the origin ramp) to the same consignee (the destination ramp). The boxes go all over the place, but the cars all go from one spot to one spot.
Not indignant, just just giving you a peak around the bend. Yes you have to walk before you run, but you still should know that the end game is to be able to run. 8-)
Plus if you have picked up the cars in a block you have already crawled. Time to graduate to walking. Its not that hard really. In a certain respect, doing it "right" is often the simplest solution. This is not a criticism of you, just an observation after discussing operations on forums for years. So many time people decide they want to make things 'simpler" so they cut a corner someplace, then that causes something else to be modified down line to make that work and then that complicates something else and before they know it, its a convoluted mess. Had they chosen what they percieved as the "difficult"solution it would have been way simpler and easier.
If the railroads do something complicated, its probably because the government made them do it that way. 8-)