I am having problems with gluing ballast and just ready to throw the stuff away and go back to Woodland Scenics products but I thought I would throw it out here and see if you have any ideas. The fisrt attempt I don't think I diluted the glue ( Elmers ) enough as it just coated it over and looked really bad. The second try I diluted down to water consistancy, it worked better but was spotty and still isn't given me the look I want. Not sure what it is but I think it is sand, I purchased it in unmarked bags from a hobby shop that was selling it for someone ( who probably wasnt happy with it ). The hobby shop isn't sure what it is either. I am willing to try one more time before I give up and use Woodland or another brand. I just happened to like this color. Does anyone have any tips to make this work or let me know what brand of ballast you use with great success.
Thanks,
Dugan
A couple of other notes, I sprayed with wet water prior to the glue and the glue (Elmers) was diluted with water to a water thin consistancy and a drop or two of soap, the bottom picture was the first attempt and the top was the second.
I've had problems in the past with the wet water and the 50/50 water/white glue mix. I now pre-wet the ballast with 70% alcohol then drip on the 50/50 water/white glue and haven't had any problems. I've done this with sand, some kind of crushed stone and the Woodland Scenics stuff. Woodland Scenics ballast is what's on my layout now and it was all secured using alcohol as a pre-wetter followed by the water/white glue.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I don't think that it's all that bad, but you could possibly have used a little less ballast. I use a paper cup, squeezed slightly to form a spout, to deposit the ballast along the centre of the track, then drag a soft 1/2" brush along the track to spread the ballast. Keep the handle of the brush fairly close to the track, to avoid having the bristles catch on the ties, thereby firing ballast everywhere as they spring free. Use the bush to move the ballast along the track so that it's no higher than the tops of the ties. Add more ballast along the outside of the rails as required, and level it out. If necessary, tidy-up the edge of the ballast using the brush. Next, lightly grasp the brush by its ferrule, using your non-dominant hand, and lay the handle across the track so that it's touching both rails. Using the fingers of your free hand, lightly and rapidly tap the brush handle as your other hand moves the brush along the track. Any loose particles of ballast on the tie tops will "magically" bounce into the spaces between the ties.Next, use a plant mister or other good-quality sprayer to apply "wet" water to the entire area being ballasted. "Wet" water is simply clean water to which two or three drops of liquid dish detergent has been added. I generally spray upwards initially, allowing the droplets to fall gently on the loose ballast. Once the area has been dampened, you can spray more directly, but don't get so close that you start moving ballast with the force of the spray. Continue spraying until water appears along the edges of the ballast - this ensures that the ballast has been wetted thoroughly, which in-turn will allow the glue mixture to penetrate fully.I like to mix ordinary white glue with water - a 50/50 ratio of glue-to-water works well, as does 40/60 or 60/40. Use a suitable dropper bottle to gently deposit the glue mixture along the tracks. As it makes contact, you'll see it being drawn into the ballast and it should become apparent where more is required. When all areas have been covered with the glue mixture, it's time to take a break for a day or two while the glue hardens. Don't touch it while it's wet, and once it's dry (deep applications can take up to a week to dry) don't attempt to run trains until you've cleaned the track as it will likely have a glue residue on it.
Looking at your photos, besides the ballast on the tie tops, it looks as if you didn't use enough "wet" water, thereby preventing the glue mixture from fully penetrating into the ballast.
This picture illustrates use of a dropper-type bottle to apply glue mixture to scenery foam, an operation very similar to ballasting:
Don't be stingy with either the "wet" water...
or the glue mixture:
Once it's dried, whether ballast or scenic foam, it should appear as if it's loose:
NO GLUE. LIONS do not like getting glue on their paws. LIONS use 100% all natural GRAVITY. Works on 1:1 layouts too. Here him uses sifted cat litter for ballast. Give the rest back to the cats, they cannot tell the difference anyway.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLion NO GLUE. LIONS do not like getting glue on their paws. LIONS use 100% all natural GRAVITY.
NO GLUE. LIONS do not like getting glue on their paws. LIONS use 100% all natural GRAVITY.
While my heart is with LION, my head tells me otherwise.
It is best to glue the ballast.
I agree with Wayne that you put down too much ballast. Apply ballast a little more sparingly and then groom it with a brush until it looks like the prototype.
And use ballast, not sand. In spite of what some might say, I really like Woodland Scenics ballast for this purpose.
Before applying the glue mix, I spray isopropyl alcohol on the ballast so that the glue mix is absorbed without running or puddling.
Then, I apply the glue (Elmer's White Glue is fine, but I use matte medium) after first mixing it with water. I use four parts water to one part glue. Allow 48 to 72 hours to completely dry.
Rich
Alton Junction
Wayne,
Thanks your your imput, I do it pretty much they way you do and in the past using Woodland Scenics have never had a problem. I wasnt real happy with my sprayer with the wet water and not sure if I had enough alcohol in it and I know I didnt have it that wet so that might be part of the problem. I havent cleaned any of it in those pictures because I knew that I was going to be taking it all out anyway. I guess I will check my mixtures, start with new wet water and try it on a couple pieces of extra track off of the layout before I go to another product.
As others have noted, using alcohol is much more effective than wet water. It evaporates so that the whole process doesn't become a swamp.
In my case, I've switched to 90% isopropyl alcohol. It evaporates even more quickly. A few have questioned this, arguing that the 90% will affect paint, etc, but I've never had an issue with that, although being careful not to get what doesn't need wetted away.
Whatever you use, it needs to thoroughly wet the ballast all the way through to work well.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
In the second picture it looks like wet cat litter to me. I wonder if there is some sort of clay in the product you're using. The first picture looks like it could work out if you use less 'ballast'. I think if it were me I would ditch that mystery bag and go with Woodland Scenics or Arizona Mineral company ballast. Ballasting is hard enough to get right without using a questionable product.
i assume the Lion is using new cat litter, or is he trying to add a new dimension to the hobby by capturing the smell of the NYC subways?
perhaps he only used gravity so he can reclaim the ballast and use it for the cats in case he runs out.
Lions can be very innovative.
charlie
Nah... The cats have graduated to the clumping type of litter, but it sure makes thing easy when you want to adjust a track, or even move or remove it completely. Makes reusing the tracks for a different layout later much easier. Of course the LION does not use roadbed either so that helps the work of the gravity. LION has not had problems with dust either. Maybe LIONS are just plain lucky.
Another product that you can use is sandblasting material. Mostly that is black, so it works better if you want to use it for live coal, but there are grey varieties. I suspect that they will work well and will not float away when the water lands on them, but you have to buy it to try it, and then let us know what happens.
ROAR
BroadwayLion SNIP Another product that you can use is sandblasting material. Mostly that is black, so it works better if you want to use it for live coal, but there are grey varieties. I suspect that they will work well and will not float away when the water lands on them, but you have to buy it to try it, and then let us know what happens. ROAR
SNIP
Be sure and check that stuff with a magnet. It's quite possible for sandblasting medium to have enough metal bits in it to cuae no end to problems if used as ballast.
In general, unless you're using ballast from a known, reputable vendor, always check it with a magnet before use.
LION was thinking of new material directly from the supplier, but yes, him has collected used stuff painting job on our coal tower, but him never used it.
Corey,
I thought about clay but when I haved tried to crush it and it didn't seem to crush but when the glue dries it did seem to swell and not look anything like it did before I glued it. I don't have alot in the center of the tracks, but the sides there is more to cover up the edge of the cork roadbed. But that is part of the problem it seems to swell up and either look like there is to much or its just looks like its still soaked in glue but it is dry. I have never used sand before I have always used Woodland's and was told that it is ground walnut shells and it always looks great when I'm done. I really liked the look of this stuff dry but after it gets wet it just looks like crap. I think I will just lay some out on foam and spray it really good with alcohol/water and then do some with the glue and see what it looks like after it dries and then decide if I need to add it to the cats box and go back to what has worked for me in the past.
Thanks, Dugan
It looks to me like there is a lot of adhesive on top of the ballast and a lot of ballast on top of the ties. I would solve the second problem by using less ballast and cleaning it up with a soft bristled brush prior to gluing.
I'd try solving the other by using rubbing alcohol (I dilute the off the shelf stuff 1:1 for a final strength of 35%) and matte medium at a 1:4 ratio with 2 drops of dishwashing soap per cup of solution which has been allowed to settle overnight so that I can remove the talc.
Try applying them with a dropper, pipette, ear bulb, or squeeze bottle to get pinpoint results and avoiding disturbing your ballast as you apply it.
That said, it doesn't sound like that stuff was much of a bargain. Go back to a name brand.
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"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
boxcarduggieI am having problems with gluing ballast and just ready to throw the stuff away and go back to Woodland Scenics products but I thought I would throw it out here and see if you have any ideas. The fisrt attempt I don't think I diluted the glue ( Elmers ) enough as it just coated it over and looked really bad. The second try I diluted down to water consistancy, it worked better but was spotty and still isn't given me the look I want.
Yes - your first attempt looks like the glue wasn't diluted or mixed enough, and/or the ballast wasn't sufficiently wet to absorb the glue. In both cases, it also looks like there's too much ballast, so that when glue is applied it too readily washes over the ties and becomes a mess.
Another thing to consider when wetting and gluing ballast is to think about how saturated the material is, and whether it can absorb glue without becoming over-saturated. I leave ballast for maybe 15-20 minutes after soaking with water/alcohol mixture, which allows the ballast to get wet all the way through, and also gives time for wetting agent to get drawn away from the surface, thus leaving space for the glue to soak in without over-saturation.
Other thoughts:
Here's an industry spur on my layout using sand for ballast. I used water with a bit of isopropyl alcohol for wetting, then glued it with 50:50 white glue and water. There were no problems with glue soaking in or ballast moving around. The individual grains seem to have sufficient heft to stay put.
In this location, there's sand ballast on the secondary tracks at left, while the main and passing siding use real rock ballast from Scenic Express. Note how the ballast materials were kept below the tops of the ties, so there was nothing to wash over the ties once water and glue were added.
Rob Spangler
Rob,
Yes on this layout I have been painting the tracks and your right it makes it look much better. I didn't give it much time to soak after the wet water so I will try that and the paint brush I was using to spread the ballast was pretty stiff so I will try a softer one to clean it better. I normally use a dental pick to clean the inside of the track and ties and vaccum up after it dries and I hadnt done that yet in these pictures but the softer brush might help eliminate some of that. I just have never had this problem before but it has been awhile since I have done ballast so I might be out of pratice and I really liked the look of this product over the Woodland stuff. By the way very nice pictures. Thanks for your imput, Dugan
Well guys I tried some more samples today and this one in the photo I thought was going to turn out OK. I tried changing the wet water to 50/50 alcohol/water and soaked it good and let it set for 20 minutes or so before gluing, I made a new batch of glue and I noticed it had a green/brown tint from the wet water that soaked out but it looked real good after applying the glue. However this morning when it was dry it looked like crap again worse than some of the other did. Unfortunately I think this is a kitty litter!!! Thanks for all your suggestions but this is going out and luckily I only had about 4' on the layout done and I have most of it taken out already, now I have to start looking for a good product.
Yup, time to throw it out. It really does look like cat litter or some other clay material. Oh well, time to buy some wallnut shells or rock! Good luck in the future.
Even if the material is "wrong" it should still be possible to get get better looking results than we saw in the first photo. Some more than decent looking layouts from the 1950s used kitty litter for example.
Using less ballast is a first step.
The next step is making it look exactly the way you want BEFORE applying the "wet water" (or 90% alcohol in a misting sprayer which is what I use) and before applying the diluted white glue (or Woodland Scenics Scenic Cement which is what I use). That means no ballast on top of the ties either between the rails or the other parts of the ties. The ballast should come up to about the top of the ties between the rails, and somewhat lower than that at the ends of the ties.
And for that I use an old piece of cork roadbed as a sort of bulldozer, running it along the track until the ballast is well tamped down. Where there is an excess I use a scrap of paper as a dustbin and a soft paint brush to remove the excess and return it to the jar for later use. But again the goal is to make it look the way you want before cementing it in place.
Again I "mist" the 90% wet water -- don't blast it out. Applying the diluted glue or Scenic Cement in modest but adequate quantities involves an eyedropper or a plastic squeeze bottle. Don't apply it with such force that it moves the ballast around -- and that means applying from directly above, not from the side.
Fourth piece of advise is that once the ballst is wetted down and the diluted glue is applied -- don't touch it, don't try to move it around or improve it. Leave it alone until it dries. it is easier to touch things up once it has hardened. Trying to sculpt it into place once it is wet is, in my experience, an invitation to ugly results.
Dave Nelson
Also, in my experience, it takes up to 72 hours to totally dry, so I resist the temptation to even lightly touch the ballast with my finger until three days have elapsed.
I am on the side of the Lion. Forty years of modeling and I have tried it all, wet water, diluted glue, alcohol soaked into the ballast, AMI rubber roadbed where you press the ballast into the roadbed, (actually like that, makes it easy); or just pouring it out and letting fall in place, just like the proto-types.
It apers to be sand, which have used so I just pour it on there and brush it in place. Wet sand looks like wet sand, but dry sand actually works, I even color it with with black and white powered paints; (no water, jus tthe pigment) from Crayola and it works great. It is a dry mix.
Now, you can also spread the glue first along the cork, topper tape, whatever you use for the subroad bed the using the paper cup method you can control the ballast material as you apply it to the tracks. Make sure you use very little, just a hint.
Both for the most part I use dry ballast and no glue. Ready for some pictures.
You can see the center line for the next piece of topper tape. Evening view as ballast has been laid.
Eventually the blue foam will be covered, but the essentials of the track laying are the same, center line on the blue foam then on the topper tape or AMI road bed.
Same on the curves, only I use a yardstick with a hole drilled at increment to determine the radius, 28",30",32", then draw a line the follow the line with the center of the topper tape.
Robert Sylvester, WTRR