Brass verses Plastic

[willy6]

I was just curious to know what are the advantages of a brass locomotive verses plastic. i do not have any brass simply because I can't afford them.

[AggroJones]

1. Worth way more money.
2. Sometimes can be sold for as much as purchased
3. Only way to obtain certain prototypes.
4. Detailing is usually off the hook.

I don't own any brass what so ever. I'd rather get 3 or 4 plastic steamers than 1 new brass one.

[Junctionfan]

I am considering getting brass intermodal cars because they are heavy enough that you can run long trains without them derailing at curves. The plastic tofc cars of Accurail and Athearn are not heavy enough to run tofc trains unless you use those nice metal All purpose well cars of Walthers which I have two of.

[Big_Boy_4005]

The main thing about brass has always been about the detail that it can hold. Brass models have been around longer than the modern high quality plastic models have. They are still popular with the most hardcore modelers, but you shouldn't feel bad if you don't have any. The funny thing was that many of the early brass models, for as pretty as they were, were poor runners directly from the box.

[Anonymous]

Snob appeal.

[DSchmitt]

Plastic is a mass production medium. Initall cost for tooling is high, but material and labor costs realitively cheap per unit (they are generally not labor intensive)

Although there are exceptions plastic models tend to be gereric, brass specific prototypes.

Brass is a limited run medium. There is relatively little set up cost, but materials cost more and a lot of somewhat skilled labor is needed per unit.

The number of brass models of any given locomotive type or car type is extremely limited (often a few hundred or less) and the run is often divided between different variations. For instance a steam loco run of 200 might be divided between 100 as built for the "A" RR in 1910, 50 As built in 1913, 30 as rebuilt in 1930, and 20 as on the "B" RR in 1942.

Overall the better plactic models now equal or surpass brass in detail and plastic is now often offered in a number of variations providing more close to specific prototype models than in the past, although brass will probably always have the edge here.

The operating qualities of brass locos is all over the map. Just as with plastic locos, they range from poorly designed and/or constructed mechanisms to excellent. As with plastic, the newer ones are generally better designed.

[tatans]

Willy6: You have just asked the most contraversial and unanswerable question ever asked of a model railroader, I'm afraid your question might just be the only answer. Your question will be read by people who saved for 5 years to buy a brass engine that is now their one pride and joy, and people who own 200 to 800 brass engines stuffed away in boxes. So you SHOULD get about 6000 different answers to your question, truly a great question.

[Don Gibson]

I'm 50 / 50 brass and plastic overall.
Steam loco's are 98 % brass
Diesel loco's are mostly Plastic.

Basic's: I agree with DSchmitt's quote (" plastic models tend to be gereric, brass specific prototypes).

When you cannot find something you want any other way, you buy brass... although cautiously.

[Allen Jenkins]

1. Plastic costs less
2. No reason to sell, if you use it.
3. All locomotives, All roads, are being modeled.
4. "Hot dog" detailing, costs half as much, and most parts
are made in USA.
I bought one Diesel, and two cabooses, both cabs, are now available, and the GP60, produced by two plastic companies, tells me the GP59 is on the way. I bought the three, as a benchmark quality modeling standard, and can't justify anymore, no matter what the level of detail, because of the rediculus pricing. The GP59, came in the box defective, and cannot be run, until a journal pin is replaced, so, after 12 years, it has not operated! Pretty? Yes, however, brass sucks, if you model trains, and let the buyer be ware, the seller is looking for suckers! ACJ.

[Anonymous]

Isn't brass suposed to be heavier on average?

[Allen Jenkins]

But I muse! All machines, must be maintained, and the addition of weight, as, using a heavy metal, to bulk-out the unused space, makes it heavier. Any locomotive, may have ballast added, cars, however, should follow NMRA practices, to maintain tracking qualities, without needlessly overloading power, for the best quality of modeling the prototype.ACJ.

[cacole]

I don't know if all brass models suffer from this, but I saw a brass steam engine a few years ago, Key Imports brand, that a woman wanted to sell. It was in its original packaging, unpainted, and even had the original sales receipt in the box. The engine was coming apart because the solder that had been used was no good and was badly deteriorating, even in the dry Arizona climate. Maybe the dry climate accelerated it? Anyway, I'll never buy one if that's what they do after a few years.

[Don Gibson]

Key Imports - a high end brass provider's - first engines from Korea had poor soldering. parts fell off, etc. It was corrected in later releases. Key Imports would not answer mail or phone calls from purchaser's which didn't help things. Luckily, re-soldering parts is easily done at the buyer's expense. Ihad a Key AT&SF 3751 that the frame had to be trued. Engines made in Japan did not have this flaw.

It took Korea several years to catch up - both in quality and price. Regarding your brass engine, only make an offer if you factor-in some professional 'resistance soldering' . Those engines sold for $250 - $300 originally.

CONSIDER it a work in progress.

[Anonymous]

Brass does have the advantage of being more detail specific, while plastic seems to be built more by committee that as per a prototype. But if you model mostly diesels, plastic will fill the bill.
As far as quality goes, there are bums in every bunch, both plastic and brass. But I would rather try to repair a 30 year old brass piece than a 30 year old plastic engine, if not for any other reason than a broken 30 year old brass engine is usually worth more than a running 30 year old plastic engine.
The tables are tipping however. With every year plastic locos are getting better and better detailed. Todays Kato, Atlas, or Stewart engine may still be worth a considerable amount tomorrow!

[twhite]

I model Rio Grande standard gauge steam, so when I needed a specific prototype, brass was ALL that was available, and the beginning of my collection dates from 1960. I've gotten some Swiss Watches sometimes, and some real clunkers at others. For example, my PFM 2-8-8-2 is a beautiful runner and powerful enough to raise and lower the garage door, and yet I've spent several years and a lot of X-rated language working on an M-78 4-8-2 that came from Korea as part of--I think--a Communist Plot. So it's a turkey-shoot with brass, just as it is with some of the newer plastic locos. For the most part, my brass runs smoothly and pulls well, but I've had to do a lot of TINKERING on certain models to get this accomplished. My plastic locos--for other railroad prototypes--run smoothly right out of the box, but then I wonder if this will be true in 5 to 10 years? Hope so. So, I think the answer is--if you're modeling a specific railroad that uses VERY specifically designed locomotives, you will sooner or later need a brass replica, unless you're the type that likes to do an awful lot of kitbashing (which can be a lot of FUN, by the way).

[Don Gibson]

There are 2 SEPARATE things that come into ply:

LOOKS; and FUNCTION.

PLASTIC requires mass production to be economical. Some diesels are now made up of various 'section's, and assembled to offer different versions of the same locomotive - but it increases the cost.

BRASS is hand-assembled custom pieces, and many of the prototype's individual characteristic's can be incorporated into final product.. One 'size' does not fit ALL.

I have a brass KEY AT&SF 3751 4-8-4 Northern - as was originally built - with two sand domes (A Santa Fe characteristic) as well as a plastic Broadway Limited 3751 as it is today - after rebuilds. The BLI has to appeal to a larger market to pay for itself, and has made compromises - such as smaller driving wheels to get around 22"radii, and addition of DCC and sound, to widen it's appeal.

The 'drives' - mechanism's / chassis - are probably made in different factories, to different specs. Some are better (and some'worser') than others. Ironically both are probably made in Korea.

Today's market wants good running, and superior paint jobs. I have 4 different Santa Fe Hudson's - all brass, and all different.

Rivarossi (plastic) can only make one. (One 'size' fit's all - remember?)

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allen Jenkins

1. Plastic costs less
2. No reason to sell, if you use it.
3. All locomotives, All roads, are being modeled.
4. "Hot dog" detailing, costs half as much, and most parts
are made in USA.

1. Depends on what plastic, and what brass. There are some dreadfully expensive plastic models out there.

3. If you can find me an HO scale Baldwin-Westinghouse steeplecab freight motor in plastic I'll give you a big sloppy wet kiss. Incidentally, in case you do find one and feel I owe you the kiss, I bought a brass one for $130. Sure, there are plenty of engines out there--but the suggestion that ALL engines for ALL roads are available in plastic is ludicrous and incorrect.

Heck, if that Baldwin-Westinghouse steeplecab is too easy for you, then find me some Niles interurban coach or combine cars, with the observation car "Bidwell" on the end, in plastic. And if you want a real head-scratcher, find me a plastic HO copy of the SN Hall-Scott passenger cars. All of the above are available in brass--none in plastic.

Traction, in general, is ill-represented in plastic. Aside from the cheapo Toonerville Trolleys that Bachmann makes, and the occasional GG-1, their numbers are limited to either inexpensive but limited-supply craftsman kits (wooden LaBelle kits, Cannonball GE steeplecab chassis, Bowser white-metal IRR and PCC's) or relatively-expensive brass.

While I don't buy a lot of brass as a rule, not all of it is all that expensive. My Baldwin-Westinghouse steeplecab cost $130 on eBay, not a bargain but I didn't have to mortgage the house for it either--and my two brass Birney single-truck safety cars cost about $80 each. For someone willing to do a repower/clean-up job, you can get brass for far less than the collector prices.

From what I've seen, narrow-gauge enthusiasts are in the same boat. You can scratchbuild if you have the skills, or you can buy brass if you have the means, but there is very little in off-the-shelf, inexpensive plastic equipment, kit or RTR.

So, if you happen to model engines that are relatively commonplace, then sure, it's pretty easy to go with plastic. But for the weirdos who like to do their own thing (like traction buffs, shortliners, early steam, narrow gauge, etc.) one might foreseeably turn to brass as a way to get an engine nobody else has offered in plastic.

[Anonymous]

I have both plastic and brass engines of the same type. For instance, one of my favorite engines is the NKP Berkshire. I have them by AHM, (RIV ), I have some by PFM, by PSC and Division Point. If you compare the engines, you will see a major difference even in the brass models. The new Division Point is absolutely one of the best models money can buy, but you could have many plastic AHM type engines for one of the new Berkshires. I have to admit that the AHM models from a distance do not look bad at all so they are a good value also., but the running qualities are poor.

Not all brass runs good, but Challenger, Key, Overland and Division Point are really making an effort to sell good running brass if you want to spend some money.

[Allen Jenkins]

The Seaboard Air Line Railway, ran two motocars, #2027-2028. They were Budd built, and originally had Winton engines. I'm waiting for the brass imports, that means the plastic version is on the way. The Seaboard Coast Line #4900, is the pic on the cover of Seaboard Coast Line in Florida, a Carstens Pub. What a bomb! Don't even think that critter wouldn't do 79mph, down the Fort Myers Subdivision, on 39'6" rail! The GP16, the U18B, I'll see them, I know it! ACJ.

[AntonioFP45]

From what I've researched brass has an advantage as far as resonance for modelers installing DCC/Sound in their units.

Can't afford it though. Wouldn't mind owning a brass New Haven EP5 "Jet" locomotive. I'm hoping that one will turn up sooner or later on Ebay.

[darth9x9]

The original question in this post is like asking which tastes better - red M&Ms or green M&Ms?

Some people consider brass to be hand made works of art that one day will appreciate in value. I doubt we will see this happen in our lifetimes. I buy brass when there is no QUALITY plastic counterpart. Last year I purchased Overland's Chessie B-30-7s and they are mechanically equal to or better than any of the Atlas Master series locos. In fact, they were Overland RTRs! Yes, they came with Kadee couplers and were ready to haul freight straight out of the box. They are a sweet set of locos.

It all depends on how accurate of a model you want. For some, the Bachmann B-23-7 will do them nicely. For me, I had to have the Overland B-30-7s.

[willy6]

The thing about red M&Ms and green M&Ms..........they are the same price.

[the-big-blow]

Lets see I own in brass a

Three unit gas turbine
2 Milwaukee Road little Joes
C855B

and the plastic equvilents are?

[Jetrock]

And you can always get both red M&M's and green M&M's in the same package. In this case, red M&M's are cheap and plentiful, and green M&M's are expensive and rare. Which means that if you are modeling a green M&M candyroad, you may have to spend more.

[Allen Jenkins]

Great, if you got the money, and or are financed, go for it! No doubt, brass follows blueprints, to the letter, and are ready to roll. Nice! ACJ.

[Junctionfan]

What happened to Walthers' plastic pd hopper? The only hoppers like that I see are brass now.

[Anonymous]

I own several brass steam and diesel locomotives, and I will Never go back to plastic. Yes my roster is allot smaller now than before. However, who makes a SD38AC for the DM&IR? Right now no one does. Who makes an accurate Milwaukee Road SD40-2? No one but OMI. The selling of my plastic fleet helped to fund my purchases of Key 2-10-2 and PSC 2-8-8-4's for the Missabe as well. There are some locomotives I wish I could buy but have to learn to control the budget and by only certain ones.

[Paul3]

I have to say I'm in the pro-brass group, although I own far more plastic.

I model the New Haven, and for things like New Haven PA's and FA's, plastic P2K models are great. But if I want NH steam? I can only get good ones in brass. Sure, if I wanted nothing but R-1 Mountains and 0-8-0's, I could fill up on Spectrum light 4-8-2's and P2K 0-8-0's. But the NH's steam roster was so diverse that it would not be very realistic representation of their roster.

Streamlined I-5 Hudsons, detailed I-4 Pacifics with boiler-top airtanks, 3-cylinder R-3a Mountains, etc., would be impossible to find in plastic.

And diesels are like that as well, really. The NH had an electic collection of diesels, with FL9's, DL109's, etc. that really were only on the NH. And even their "off the shelf" designs had different details from anyone else (the NH GP9's, for example, had extra water tanks on the running board behind the cab).

So, my collection is a mixture of both brass and plastic. I choose plastic over brass if I have a choice because of the the cost (I'd much rather have 10 plastic PA's that are almost correct than one PA that's 100% correct). If I don't have a choice, I save up and buy brass.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[hd8091]

There are just somethings you can't or couldn't get in plastic years ago.The same is true today I bought the majority of mine in the mid seventy's to mid eighty's ...Mostley
PFM and some Korean, ; rule of thumb #1 see it run before you buy; rule of thumb #2 some early Korean was bad but they got their act together. That said now days I mainly buy plastic, it has come a long way baby ! I also refuse to pay $1000. up for an engine, unless I can't live without it...But it's surprising what my wife thinks I can live with out. All my diesel power is plastic, except I spied an old Halmark (?) H10-44 that was instant lust ... OH well, I'll see , birthday coming up, maybe "she who must be obeyed" may take pity on me. Ever hopeful.
Tom

[Jetrock]

I refuse to pay $1000 up for brass...heck, even $500. But if I find something that fits my obscure prototypes for $200 or less, heck, I'm not too worried about that.

And, of course, there are just some things you can't get in plastic NOW, that they USED to make in brass...