Milepost 266.2 BRAKIE: Milepost 266.2: IRONROOSTER: Interesting discussion. One point I don't recall anyone making is that by selling direct only, they are effectively raising their prices. No discounts will be available once places like M.B. Klein sell out. Enjoy Paul I thought that was the whole point of this thread. FWIW, I think the price isn't the problem, it's the perceived "bargain". If they can hold the retail price down by eliminating dealers, you're saving money, but it's not as obvious as a big "20% off!" banner. I don't think done of us likes paying(say) $40.00 for a boxcar but,if direct selling by manufacturers becomes the standard then we will need to rethink our buying habits and maybe the very size of our layouts. Of course the ever increasing prices needs to be controlled(curb?) before a (say) $100.00 flat car becomes a reality. Maybe the price bubble has sprung a leak? Given the number of new-in-box items still sitting on my shelves, rethinking my buying habits is probably a pretty good idea. When prices get too high, demand will drop and prices will change. At least, that's what all the capitalists keep telling me.
BRAKIE: Milepost 266.2: IRONROOSTER: Interesting discussion. One point I don't recall anyone making is that by selling direct only, they are effectively raising their prices. No discounts will be available once places like M.B. Klein sell out. Enjoy Paul I thought that was the whole point of this thread. FWIW, I think the price isn't the problem, it's the perceived "bargain". If they can hold the retail price down by eliminating dealers, you're saving money, but it's not as obvious as a big "20% off!" banner. I don't think done of us likes paying(say) $40.00 for a boxcar but,if direct selling by manufacturers becomes the standard then we will need to rethink our buying habits and maybe the very size of our layouts. Of course the ever increasing prices needs to be controlled(curb?) before a (say) $100.00 flat car becomes a reality. Maybe the price bubble has sprung a leak?
Milepost 266.2: IRONROOSTER: Interesting discussion. One point I don't recall anyone making is that by selling direct only, they are effectively raising their prices. No discounts will be available once places like M.B. Klein sell out. Enjoy Paul I thought that was the whole point of this thread. FWIW, I think the price isn't the problem, it's the perceived "bargain". If they can hold the retail price down by eliminating dealers, you're saving money, but it's not as obvious as a big "20% off!" banner.
IRONROOSTER: Interesting discussion. One point I don't recall anyone making is that by selling direct only, they are effectively raising their prices. No discounts will be available once places like M.B. Klein sell out. Enjoy Paul
Interesting discussion.
One point I don't recall anyone making is that by selling direct only, they are effectively raising their prices. No discounts will be available once places like M.B. Klein sell out.
Enjoy
Paul
I thought that was the whole point of this thread.
FWIW, I think the price isn't the problem, it's the perceived "bargain". If they can hold the retail price down by eliminating dealers, you're saving money, but it's not as obvious as a big "20% off!" banner.
I don't think done of us likes paying(say) $40.00 for a boxcar but,if direct selling by manufacturers becomes the standard then we will need to rethink our buying habits and maybe the very size of our layouts.
Of course the ever increasing prices needs to be controlled(curb?) before a (say) $100.00 flat car becomes a reality.
Maybe the price bubble has sprung a leak?
Given the number of new-in-box items still sitting on my shelves, rethinking my buying habits is probably a pretty good idea.
When prices get too high, demand will drop and prices will change. At least, that's what all the capitalists keep telling me.
Take it from a capitalist, it is a little more complex than that. No business sells its products below cost unless they are very cash strapped or going out of business, So there is a bottom "value" in most cases.
Fact is most of this industry is already operating at bottom value or minimum markup, so when you see fire sale prices, it is just that, someone has decided its time ot get out and is dumping what they have left.
That may be good for you in the short term but it is bad for all of us in the hobby in the long term.
Without "capitalists" willing to risk money to make money, non of these products would exist. Which socialist country would like to move to? Ask some of of our European forum members to tell you about prices of model trains in their country.
Sheldon
BRAKIE Milepost 266.2: IRONROOSTER: Interesting discussion. One point I don't recall anyone making is that by selling direct only, they are effectively raising their prices. No discounts will be available once places like M.B. Klein sell out. Enjoy Paul I thought that was the whole point of this thread. FWIW, I think the price isn't the problem, it's the perceived "bargain". If they can hold the retail price down by eliminating dealers, you're saving money, but it's not as obvious as a big "20% off!" banner. I don't think done of us likes paying(say) $40.00 for a boxcar but,if direct selling by manufacturers becomes the standard then we will need to rethink our buying habits and maybe the very size of our layouts. Of course the ever increasing prices needs to be controlled(curb?) before a (say) $100.00 flat car becomes a reality. Maybe the price bubble has sprung a leak?
IRONROOSTER Interesting discussion. One point I don't recall anyone making is that by selling direct only, they are effectively raising their prices. No discounts will be available once places like M.B. Klein sell out. Enjoy Paul
True in the short term, which how so many people think these days. But if they were about to raise prices, that would have raised the prices of the retailers who discount as well.
This aspect of this disccussion has been gone over before on other threads about prices, but no one seems to pay attention.
Cost to produce + manufacturer profit + distrbutor profit + retailer profit = retail price
Most of the discounting that is done is accoplished by elliminating the distributor and lowering the price by all or most of that mark up.
Few businesses can survive of less than 30% gross margin - pay $70 for item, sell it for $100. Something in the range of 40% has long been the "standard" wholesale discount in this business. So if you buy from a distributor it is hard to discount more than about 10%.
Unless they are severely cash strapped, most manufacturers have a bottom line at which they will not go below no matter how much you buy, etc, contrary to the incorrect notion that volume always lowers the price.
That, and their willingness to sell direct to retailers and web outlets it what controls current price levels in this hobby - 20% to 40% off retail - the markup that once belonged to the distributors.
Many of the "big boys" sell to the public at basicly the same price small shops would have to pay distributors for the same item. Nothing in this hobby is bought wholesale for $10 and resold for $100 retail.
So, selling direct to retailers allows manufacturers to both make more money and keep prices lower.
Many manufactuers have alread cut out distributors, some actually kept retail prices the same and split the extra profit with dealers - allowing them to discount 20%-30% and still make a fair profit, others lowered or held prices.
Running a retail store is much more expensive than running a web/mailorder warehouse. Having to discount, regardless of pricing structures makes it hard for retail shops to compete.
I suspect if we could find out the numbers, places like Kleins and Trainworld only keep their retail stores out of tradition, image and as a service to local customers, not because the "store" makes a lot of money - especially as discounted as their prices are.
Milepost 266.2 IRONROOSTER: Interesting discussion. One point I don't recall anyone making is that by selling direct only, they are effectively raising their prices. No discounts will be available once places like M.B. Klein sell out. Enjoy Paul I thought that was the whole point of this thread. FWIW, I think the price isn't the problem, it's the perceived "bargain". If they can hold the retail price down by eliminating dealers, you're saving money, but it's not as obvious as a big "20% off!" banner.
Not exactly, they were talking about increased production costs and how this would enable them to keep prices "reasonable". But it also freezes out the discounters at the same time, which has the effect of raising prices - at least for those who buy from discounters. At the moment Kleins, for example, has some of those $38.95 boxcars for $31.19 while Exactrail's site has them at list.
Then this thread kinda of veered off into whether $40 HO boxcars are worth the money. Although a better approach might be how much detail/accuracy do you need to meet your needs and accomplish your goals?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
"Campbell is still available in hobby shops, Walthers distributes them!!!!!!"
And on that point I stand corrected, they have however made a significant move to sell their product direct with a new web site and several years worth of ads prompting customers to contact them directly - rather than the traditional "see your dealer" kind of ad campain.
vsmith ATLANTIC CENTRAL: This is surely bad for hobby shops/retailers - of all sizes and methods of sale - but it may not be bad for ExactRail at all. For all you "young people" out there, there has always been a core of small, direct to the public manufacturers in this hobby. And a few fairly large by model railroad industry standards have gone to direct sales and done just fine - Campbell Scale Models - maker of wood craftsman structure kits since the 60's, is now sold only direct. For the longest time they did not even have a web site, yet they are still in business. http://www.campbellscalemodelsonline.com/Default.asp Now I know for many of you, a wood structure kit is not on your radar - but yet they are still in business some 50 years later. Over the decades the pages of MR and RMC have been full of small ads for special products sold directly by small manufacturers - and that was BEFORE the internet. MARK MY WORDS, I have been saying this for years on here - distributors are all but dead, most products in this hobby will be sold directly to retailers by the manufacturers and/or directly to the public by the manufacturers in the future. It is already happening with a large amount of product, the trend will only continue. Athearn has single point distribution direct to retailers, Walthers is more about their own products rather than being a distributor, Bowser is the same, ConCor as well. The last three just mentioned use to be big DISTRIBUTORS - now they import/manufacturert and sell mainly their own stuff. Dozens of smaller companies are selling direct to retailers and/or consumers with e-commerce web sites. You the public demanded "discounts", and apparently also demanded high detail, RTR, proto specific products which require much higher developement and production costs - you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Manufacturers, distributors and retailers can not do all this, put inventory on shelves to have it available when you are ready to buy, and still have margins that allow for constant 20% to 40% "discounts" off "retail" prices. Get ready for more: Direct marketing Limited production Higher prices OR - maybe consider actually returning to building some of this stuff yourself? Sheldon What I was about to say is pretty much summed up here, thats the future. Just this week a large scale manufacturer, Aristocraft just announced that they too are going to direct sales. I wonder how many other mfrs will follow in the coming years. I can only hope my local train shop survives, as it is the only other LHS is already absolutley useless when it comes to trains.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: This is surely bad for hobby shops/retailers - of all sizes and methods of sale - but it may not be bad for ExactRail at all. For all you "young people" out there, there has always been a core of small, direct to the public manufacturers in this hobby. And a few fairly large by model railroad industry standards have gone to direct sales and done just fine - Campbell Scale Models - maker of wood craftsman structure kits since the 60's, is now sold only direct. For the longest time they did not even have a web site, yet they are still in business. http://www.campbellscalemodelsonline.com/Default.asp Now I know for many of you, a wood structure kit is not on your radar - but yet they are still in business some 50 years later. Over the decades the pages of MR and RMC have been full of small ads for special products sold directly by small manufacturers - and that was BEFORE the internet. MARK MY WORDS, I have been saying this for years on here - distributors are all but dead, most products in this hobby will be sold directly to retailers by the manufacturers and/or directly to the public by the manufacturers in the future. It is already happening with a large amount of product, the trend will only continue. Athearn has single point distribution direct to retailers, Walthers is more about their own products rather than being a distributor, Bowser is the same, ConCor as well. The last three just mentioned use to be big DISTRIBUTORS - now they import/manufacturert and sell mainly their own stuff. Dozens of smaller companies are selling direct to retailers and/or consumers with e-commerce web sites. You the public demanded "discounts", and apparently also demanded high detail, RTR, proto specific products which require much higher developement and production costs - you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Manufacturers, distributors and retailers can not do all this, put inventory on shelves to have it available when you are ready to buy, and still have margins that allow for constant 20% to 40% "discounts" off "retail" prices. Get ready for more: Direct marketing Limited production Higher prices OR - maybe consider actually returning to building some of this stuff yourself? Sheldon
This is surely bad for hobby shops/retailers - of all sizes and methods of sale - but it may not be bad for ExactRail at all.
For all you "young people" out there, there has always been a core of small, direct to the public manufacturers in this hobby. And a few fairly large by model railroad industry standards have gone to direct sales and done just fine -
Campbell Scale Models - maker of wood craftsman structure kits since the 60's, is now sold only direct. For the longest time they did not even have a web site, yet they are still in business.
http://www.campbellscalemodelsonline.com/Default.asp
Now I know for many of you, a wood structure kit is not on your radar - but yet they are still in business some 50 years later.
Over the decades the pages of MR and RMC have been full of small ads for special products sold directly by small manufacturers - and that was BEFORE the internet.
MARK MY WORDS, I have been saying this for years on here - distributors are all but dead, most products in this hobby will be sold directly to retailers by the manufacturers and/or directly to the public by the manufacturers in the future. It is already happening with a large amount of product, the trend will only continue.
Athearn has single point distribution direct to retailers, Walthers is more about their own products rather than being a distributor, Bowser is the same, ConCor as well. The last three just mentioned use to be big DISTRIBUTORS - now they import/manufacturert and sell mainly their own stuff.
Dozens of smaller companies are selling direct to retailers and/or consumers with e-commerce web sites.
You the public demanded "discounts", and apparently also demanded high detail, RTR, proto specific products which require much higher developement and production costs - you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
Manufacturers, distributors and retailers can not do all this, put inventory on shelves to have it available when you are ready to buy, and still have margins that allow for constant 20% to 40% "discounts" off "retail" prices.
Get ready for more:
Direct marketing
Limited production
Higher prices
OR - maybe consider actually returning to building some of this stuff yourself?
What I was about to say is pretty much summed up here, thats the future. Just this week a large scale manufacturer, Aristocraft just announced that they too are going to direct sales. I wonder how many other mfrs will follow in the coming years. I can only hope my local train shop survives, as it is the only other LHS is already absolutley useless when it comes to trains.
I can't really add anymore than I can. I think my thoughts on adapting to a new way of obtaining products is a valid one, thats the only thing to me which is relevant. Cost? 20 vs 40 dollars? I went to the Timonium Train show in March and saw this really unique CSX box car with the door off to one side on each end. I thought, thats is really unique and cool and would've liked to bought one, but it was over 40 dollars - well, I passed but if I were a Chessie/CSX fan, I probably would get one because they are so unique and AFAIK, a good copy of a prototype.
Anyway, I hope all goes well for ExactRail. If they come out with something I really want after this switch, I may see my self to one or two of whatever it is, otherwise, I'll go back to shopping Genesis and other makes.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Mike,
I don't think this is so much of an issue of paying a discount price for something just to justify the purchase. Most of us have budgets for our hobby as well as everything else in life. ExactRail products may not be for everyone whether it is because of selection of model's, road names or price. The point here is that ExactRail is taking a big chance that this move is going to pay off for them. Its just another sign of the times and how it changes the landscape of our hobby.
It may be just my ignorance, but they worked hard to build a dealer base, a network of retail establishments, where their products are placed on display and create a large exposure and advertising for them. Now they decide to no longer provide a discount to dealers to purchase their products at wholesale so there is room for markup. By doing this they are losing all of that advertising that they were actually getting paid for when the retailer purchased his inventory. I don't see how this is beneficial for them in the long run.
You have to admire their desire to keep the price of their offerings as affordable as possible. There is no doubt that they make a beautiful product but I hope that by limiting where you can buy their offerings doesn't backfire on them. They know their business better than me and I wish them well on this decision.
Pat
Jim and Sheldon,
I didn't want to throw a wet blanket on things so much as I wanted to question the obsession with getting things at some ideal cost that justifies in our mind the worth of our decision to buy.
Great model and $20? OK, I'll buy it. Great model and $40? Fergeddaboutit!
Which is not to say we shouldn't watch our budgets and make whatever decision we are personally with most comfortable with as consumers.
What's my bottom line? I've got a budget that is "just so." But it's disposable income and whatever I do with it is justified based on what I want and need, not on some arcane "best price" or "right price" or whatever. If there's something I need, it's either OK, too expensive, or I can build it myself. I'm not going to lose sleep over it, feel guilty about it, project that onto my decisions, or discuss why it really should be 5% cheaper based on some arcane economic analysis.
I'm not questioning anyone else's right to discuss this sort of thing. I just wanted to point out that the endless drive in our society that's expressed in trying to put a price on everything has gotten to the point where it's starting to erode the value of the priceless things that I think we all value about model railroading -- and many other things in life itself, too, but that;s another conversation for another forum.
I enjoy the hobby in part to get away from such things, to revive the idea that there's something about this hobby that transcends the dreary toil of everyday life, that brings out the best in us, rather than what's crass. I'm sure that's not the intent of those who want to write about it, but I think it presents a very unflattering portrait of the hobby that does none of us any good -- and it sure never changes the price of anything anyway.
I will excuse myself now. It's my fault I even dropped in, knowing what I'd probably find. I just wanted to offer an alternative philosophy to the issue in case someone thinks that such concerns dominate the hobby, as they sometimes seem.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Mike, to be honest I enjoy this stuff, after all we are talking about business' that are serving our hobby. I would like to think that the individuals that run these business' are actually running them as more than a hobby themselves. (not always the case in this hobby). Furthermore, having been in sales, marketing and distribution my whole working life, and now run my own business which uses distribution channels, I find this stuff fascinating. These guys are making decisions that I have either faced myself, or will have to face at some time in the future. There are significant consequences to making these decisions and it will be interesting to see how it pans out.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
mlehman Is it just me? There seems to be a rip-tide of trying to analyze our hobby as if we were all MBAs and the most important thing any company can do is to keep the bean counters and model railroaders both happy at the same time -- an impossible task. ER will either succeed or not in this. I have strong doubts about it myself, but ultimately what really matters is whether they build something I want or not. And I don't care if they slap some unreal roadname on the side or not. I can figure that out and if someone buys one that way because I won't, so much the better as it subsidizes my personal level of pickiness about accuracy. I think there's something a bit pathological at work in American life when so many of us seem inclined to analyze our hobby as if it were a business plan, rather than fun and recreation. I'm actually kind of disgusted in myself for even contributing my "who cares?" sentiment here after reading the massive waste of energy on another forum and having put my two cents in there, too. Ugh... Imagine if all the energy that went into these discussions was devoted to modeling?
Is it just me? There seems to be a rip-tide of trying to analyze our hobby as if we were all MBAs and the most important thing any company can do is to keep the bean counters and model railroaders both happy at the same time -- an impossible task.
ER will either succeed or not in this. I have strong doubts about it myself, but ultimately what really matters is whether they build something I want or not. And I don't care if they slap some unreal roadname on the side or not. I can figure that out and if someone buys one that way because I won't, so much the better as it subsidizes my personal level of pickiness about accuracy.
I think there's something a bit pathological at work in American life when so many of us seem inclined to analyze our hobby as if it were a business plan, rather than fun and recreation. I'm actually kind of disgusted in myself for even contributing my "who cares?" sentiment here after reading the massive waste of energy on another forum and having put my two cents in there, too. Ugh...
Imagine if all the energy that went into these discussions was devoted to modeling?
Imagine if we were all willing to pay retail at well stocked hobby shops with helpfull friendly counter staff - we would not be having this conversation.
I'll put my 30 plus years of business experiance, some of it in this business, up against the average MBA anytime.
Nobody compells you to read or replay to stuff that is of no interest to you, I skip over 85% of this forum, and its the only train forum I read.
Imagine if the internet closed down and all the time speni on it went to more productive activities.
Personally, I'm only on here this much this past week due to a personal comitment that has made the computer available and other more desirable activities not available - I'll be much more quiet next week.
Mike, Confess I am victim to getting caught up in the analyzing thing, although my masters is not in business, but rather geological sciences, so perhaps I should leave the analysis to those more qualified! And I find myself reaction to comments made in topics which seem either "off topic" or trying to make up excuses why not to buy ER, which makes them off topic. If they only buy kits, or ER doesn't make era correct cars, then why bother commenting unless they are just lining up to watch the show - get your popcorn and lemonade and chase lounges eh? =P
Most of the major forums seem to be having a lot of hand wringing and debate over the economy, the cost of the hobby and now ER's descision to migrate to direct sales. I guess since I live in a place with no nearby hobby shops, my trains come from either mail order or train shows so this thing with ER shouldn't be a huge change for me, it's more mental or psychological. We Americans are conditioned to thinking of products in terms of MSRP vs the best price you can find. ER does remove that part of the bargain hunting from the equation, so that turns many of us out of our comfort zone.
Anyhow Mike, people like me jibber jabber on forums because I don't have a basement or workshop and probably won't for a few more years. I collect, I research and fantasize while I live in a tiny shoebox. I can see you have a nice place for a beautiful layout, so count your blessings - you are fortunate.
rdgk1se3019 And what about all the smaller companys that make laser cut and resin kits too?
And what about all the smaller companys that make laser cut and resin kits too?
Since I model 1900, there are precious few "quality" shake-the-box or RTR cars available that are even reasonable generic matches. The Roundhouse Old Timers are fair representations for 1910 onwards, but require significant work to backdate.
There are quite a few small manufacturers of accurate, well-detailed wood, laser-cut, and resin kits that are era-suitable. And I buy them. And I'm very glad they are there, as I haven't mustered the courage to get into scratch-building yet. But as several posters have brought up, there is a trade-off of time to build and finish these "craftsmen" kits. Most of us simply don't have the time to build every car from a craftsman kit if we hope to complete a mid-size to large layout in our lifetimes.
There are 3 resource constraints to layout building - money, time, and space. Some are much more constrained by time than space or money - for them RTR or easily built kits can allow them to build larger rosters to use in operations or other pleasurable activities. And reality is that these folks form the majority of the model railroading market. There wouldn't be much variety or model availability if manufacturers had to count on the purchases of the likes of me to make a living. Yet I benefit greatly from those who have larger budgets and rosters because of the variety and number of models available.
In my case, all 3 resources are pretty tightly constrained. So a small layout, populated with relatively few cars that are time-consuming to build works out rather well for me - but not necessarily for anybody else.
I am very glad that model railroading is a spectrum of choices, and I encourage all to enjoy the hobby their way.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Bowser still makes kits too.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
I guess many of us are alike in that way. I grew up with trains since I was a toddler while Kennedy was still President, and my dad built a Lionel layout for me which I got for Christmas at age 4, but after that it was pretty much up to me to try to do some modeling on my own since he was in the Air Force and gone on TDY much of the time. I too have worked in a few hobby shops over the years and rubbed shoulders with folks in the hobby and ate up MR magazines since my early teens. I don't have any "credentials" but have been an avid reader and researcher in the hobby most of my adult life.
For me the hobby has been an evolution from just liking trains in general as a kid to watching the prototype SP growing up in California and later traveling around the US - I think I counted 45 of the 50 states so I've covered some ground, but I still harken back to the western spaces of my teens and twenties for what motivates me the most. Because of that evolution, I have found that as I learned more about the prototypes, I began to notice models which I had bought because they were painted for SP or D&RGW or whatever and found they didn't match anything either RR owned. I had been vaguely aware of this in my younger years, but became accutely aware of it when I bought some Morning Sun Books such as the Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment and others. Since there have been times when I had no place to build a layout, I focused on researching and refining my collecting, which meant selling off quite a bit, and slowly replacing cars with those which better matched. I don't think I have as many freight cars as you (I haven't counted them) but what I've managed to collect will help me build trains that look like those in my books, and that is cool.
What I personally enjoy building trains that look like the real thing, in some cases nearly car for car from what I can identify in some shots - of course not entire trains but what I can see. I have examples of most everything you mentioned except Fox Valley - but I have plans to get one of those SOO's eventually!!! It sounds like you are back in the 40's and 50's era so I realize the manufacturers have been covering mostly 60's-present lately, probably what they feel will sell. ExactRail tends toward the that niche. Since I grew up mostly watching real trains in the 70's and 80's as a teen and twenty something, that is what jazzes me the most - which I suppose is most common. I realize there are a few folks, like yourself, that may model time periods before you were born. I do admit, my exposure to real steam on several occasions make me wish I was alive back then to see those beasts in action, but the personal connection with the 70's and 80's is to strong for me to over come, and rely on video's and books to connect. Even as it is, I have relied on those media together with my own memories as inspiration.
I do hope ExactRail can remain accessable to the fans and hobbiests because the do produce excellent products, among the best IMO, and they have been filling many area's in the HO and N scale that were missing or needed a quality model.
Cheers.
riogrande5761,
Actually, I'm nearly the same age as you, I will be 55 in a month. But I grew up with this hobby, my father built a very nice layout for me at age 8, by age 10 it was mine to learn on, change, by age 12 I was building Silver Streak wood kits, buy age 14 I was the repair person/sales clerk at the local hobby shop. At age 20 I was running the train department in another hobby shop. During that time I was learning from the old masters at the somewhat well known and published Severna Park Model Railroad Club.
No disagreement here with anything you said, but thanks for clarifing some of it.
Maybe J.Rob is just justifing his choices, but the future of ExactRail is linked to the price vs detail question - otherwise they might have simply decided to raise prices - they didn't, they chose cost control - that says something.
I have a lot of rolling stock (800 freight cars +/-), of every price, age, material, level of detail and accuracy, etc. But I am in no way motovated to replace all my blue box (and yellow box before that) Athearn 40' steel box cars with $35 or $40 RTR cars. In fact I still buy Athearn all the time - NOS blue box or new Ready to Roll.
I have some high end freight cars, Fox Valley, Intermountain, Kadee, but to model the era I model, a lot of stuff has not been done in "high end" cars. Sure some important holes in my era have been filled over the last decade or two, but the fact is a lot of the correct cars for my era are only available in medium detail Accurail, Athearn, Bowser, MDC grade shake thebox kits, or as craftsman kits - of which I build my share.
I'm filling an 800 sq ft room with two levels, modeling for overall effect.
And I hope ExactRail stays in business long enough to offer me something other than B&O wagon tops. Because if they do, I will likely buy their stuff, direct from them would be no problem to me, especially if it keeps prices down.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL riogrande5761, Your reply to J.Rob begs a few questions and comments: What if no accurate model exists of the freight cars you need for a desired operational scheme? You yourself comment earlier about the impracticality of building everything from craftsman, or even shake the box kits for a large layout?
Your reply to J.Rob begs a few questions and comments:
What if no accurate model exists of the freight cars you need for a desired operational scheme? You yourself comment earlier about the impracticality of building everything from craftsman, or even shake the box kits for a large layout?
The answer is simple, you go without if it isn't practical to scratchbuild, which is the case for many of us. Or if you can deal with it, use some sort of "stand-in" freight cars and let your imagination make up for it. In the past, the situation of "no accurate models" was much more common, but in the past 15 to 20 years, a great deal of nice models has come out so it is easier to find what you need, although not 100% possible.
Some of us are more intersted in the "big picture" or capturing the feel of big time railroading, or in acting out an operational scheme - OR simply finding a reasonable afordable balance in all aspects of the hobby. I have no interest in only pulling 12 cars with my ABBA F3 diesel sets.
And I acknowledge that in my earlier post. That is a decision based on the modeler preference. Back in the 1980's, I was interested most in building the Rio Grande Zephyr as best I could with what was available, mainly Athearn F units and Concor dome cars. For the freight trains that it passed on the D&RGW mainline, I was more interested in modeling them in a fairly generic sense. But over the years as I've researched and read about the D&RGW, my interested has refined into specifics and I've moved way from wanting generic freight trains to run past the Rio Grande Zephyr to having trains that ran freight cars which I can identify and make them more realistic too.
ExactRail makes great stuff, and as stated earlier I wish them all the best, but since they are not providing hardly anything in the era I model, it does not matter if I am willing to spend $35 on a single freight car or not.
It is what it is. If a company doesn't make what you need, you don't buy from them. What else can you say.
After 40 years of study and modeling, I'm reasonably well schooled on the era and railroads that interest me, but I gave up rivet counting years ago in favor of a more balanced approach to the whole of the hobby. My layout is even designed to provide good continious loop display operation along with "real" operation. And I still find more fun in freelancing mixed with prototype modeling than obsessing over the number ribs on the end of a box car. Sheldon
Sheldon, I don't rivit count either, otherwise I would have a different outlook on modeling than I do. Sounds like your older than me but at 53 I have a good idea of the prototype vs the modeling world and lets both agree that model railroading is a continuum that involves varying degree's of compromise. Although I know what rivit counting is, I don't engage in it and don't care to. What I do care to do is identify models that "look" like common freight cars, such as many of the SP PC&F or lumber cars. I look at the photo and then the model and say, "yep, thats it", and don't look too much deeper. I'm not really sure what that has to do with obsessing over ribs on a box car honestly. But some folks do what their model to look pretty much like the real thing so thats where people have to say what is good enough.
Hopefully you get my drift, and don't think I'm not about balance, but recognize some folks are more toward the generic look and some focus in a bit more. Neither is right or wrong, but when people come into a topic about a company and say, nah, I don't care about replica's, generic is good enough - I ask myself what that has to do with ExactRails decision to go to direct sales. It sounds more like a person comforting themself that this won't affect them. Whatever... if we have to wax philosophical, then lets just say we all model on our own terms and be happy.
"It sounds to me that you care more about populating a large layout with approximate and generic freight cars in long trains where you don't care or don't notice the individual cars, nor whether they match real freight cars that you watched as a railfan."
"watched as a railfan" - I model a time period from before I was born? Personally I find modern railroading pretty boring.
After 40 years of study and modeling, I'm reasonably well schooled on the era and railroads that interest me, but I gave up rivet counting years ago in favor of a more balanced approach to the whole of the hobby. My layout is even designed to provide good continious loop display operation along with "real" operation. And I still find more fun in freelancing mixed with prototype modeling than obsessing over the number ribs on the end of a box car.
But, if people are looking for ways to save money, my way to save is to try to avoid the "fantasy" models, of which there are many out there, especially from many of the traditional kit makers.
-----------------------------------
Some times a "fantasy" car may be better then nothing especially for some road names.Of course these "fantasy" cars helps pay the bills so more models can be produce.
Of late I been favoring Atlas Trainman cars over the like brand cars but, I won't pass up a Athearn or Walthers RTR car either if I need a particular car or road name.
The way I see it one needs to buy the cars that fits his modeling style and budget.
J.Rob As I read this I am building an Accurail kit and have 2 others sitting on my desk that will be next. The exactarail cars are nice but not generally in the price range of what I am willing to spend on freight cars. I am planning to build a large layout that will have more than 600 freight cars. Train length will be 30 to 40 cars. From what I saw of their prices in the 40.00 range that puts each train at about 1500 to 1900 dollars counting motive power and caboose. Accurail cuts that by a bit over half.
As I read this I am building an Accurail kit and have 2 others sitting on my desk that will be next. The exactarail cars are nice but not generally in the price range of what I am willing to spend on freight cars. I am planning to build a large layout that will have more than 600 freight cars. Train length will be 30 to 40 cars. From what I saw of their prices in the 40.00 range that puts each train at about 1500 to 1900 dollars counting motive power and caboose. Accurail cuts that by a bit over half.
It sounds to me that you care more about populating a large layout with approximate and generic freight cars in long trains where you don't care or don't notice the individual cars, nor whether they match real freight cars that you watched as a railfan.
In contrast, there are those who have done enough observation of real trains and or railfanning through photographs, magazines and DVD's that they know what many of the typical freight cars of the region and era should look like. The good news for folks who want fairly accurate freight cars is there has been a major trend during the past 10 to 15 years for companies like Athearn, Walthers, and especially Intermountain, Genesis, ExactRail etc. to offer many cars that are close matches.
I'm not saying there isn't a place for Accurail, MDC, Athearn blue box, and other lower cost HO trains and if you look carefully, you'll find some of those happen to be fairly close to some prototypes, even if more crude than the costlier models, AND, they do provide a way for people to enjoy the hobby. That said, I would be naive to suggest that ExactRail offers only 100% freight cars which are accurate matches to real freight cars in every case. One example I recall discussed, that allegedly doesn't match any prototype, was ExactRails depressed center flat car. Of the cars I have been interested in, mainly 1970's cars, they appear to be fairly good models of specific prototypes such as the 60' auto box cars, 50' 5200 double door box cars, 62' PC&R beer box cars, and of course the Vert-a-pac's that carried Chevy Vega's from California across the Rockies to points east!
The exactarail cars look nice and if I was building a small switching layout that would have less than 100 cars they would definitely be an option. I also like building the kits. I guess each persons situation will determine his or her choices.
Nothing wrong with kits of course, and they do provide ways to build a sizable fleet at lower cost. And some kits are reasonably accurate. I have some Accurail cars myself, but have been picky about which ones I've bought - mainly the CF4600 3-bay hoppers - which are accurate for a number of prototypes, even if not finely detailed. The box cars seem to be harder to match to the prototype, and are more generic.
But, if people are looking for ways to save money, my way to save is to try to avoid the "fantasy" models, of which there are many out there, especially from many of the traditional kit makers. I used to buy anything that I liked but since not having a place to build a layout right now, much of my hobby is research and finding out what models match cars of my location and period. ExactRail makes alot of cars which fit that goal, as does Genesis, and Atlas etc. Walthers is very hit and miss, but if you look, you can find many nice Walthers cars which are matches too.
This is interesting, I usually stay away from participating in topics like this, however, I want to make a couple points.I like modelling, & try to do some 'nice to me' custom builds, I enjoy kits, scratch building & kitbasing!I try very hard to model a quality unit & when I buy one, I hope to know what I am getting & Exact Rail delivers to that extent in their model line up & grades.I have built a couple of the Exact Rail 72' bridges for a project, & enjoyed them, but at the time, they were hard to find, & held me up for a bit. (before many dealers were on-line with Exact Rail).
I have a couple Exact Rail Gons, Boxcars & their Magor hoppers. I really was impressed with each product.
At first I was really awestuck when I read this, as I had the availability issues before. Then after some thought, & if, IF!, they do it right, it could, & just may work for them.Hopefully they will put in place a great internet sales site that takes Paypal, & other internet compatible payment forms, & may consider an 'auction' site avenue, in their sales portfolio.They also need to be extremely Price competitive & market fair, we all know what we are paying now... & that is the stated reason for the change in the business model.
I really hope this does work for them, & is a positive thing for their future!I enjoy the limited number of their units I have, & would not want to see them go away, due to this transition.
Just my thoughts.
My Santa Fe in Oklahoma has a heavy investment already in ExactRail, particularily in the grain cars and auto parts cars. In fact, the grain car inventory includes 156 Exactrail ATSF cars, not to mention all the other grain cars I have liberated from them. Maybe I overinflated their business plan, but that is ending. My layout is large, and I usually have around 800-900 total cars on the layout at a given time. The rest are on shelves and I "shuffle" them back and forth between op sessions.
Bob
Dave,
Back when I ran the train department of a hobby shop many items were considered staples - like milk and bread. You bought as much as you could aford to stock with no "fear" of not selling it. Atlas track, blue box kits (and yes I remember the yellow boxes), CalScale, Kadee, MDC kits, Campbell buildings, etc, - you just tiried to stock these lines as completley as you could - like the grocery store stocks food.
You did not try too much to "guess" what people would want, you stocked stuff and replaced what sold. If it sold fast you bought 3 or 6 the next time rather than one. Maybe you sold at some sort of small discount, but you virtually never had a "clearence" sale.
Athearn was bought direct by some big dealers, but most of us just bought it from three to four regional distributors. They had to buy case lots and had big inventories, we always had hundreds of pieces of Athearn in stock in our store, and we were not a big store by any means.
Inventory was seen as money in the bank, not as a liablity. The more impressed your customers were with your selection, the more they bought, the more they came to you rather than the other guy - even if they did have to special order that one thing they wanted now and then. Sure, when aproduct seemed "dead" in the market you likely did not reorder it, but that was rare.
BUT, all that cannot be done at the small margins many of today's dealers are working on because of the demand for discounting. Retail rents are high, Employees who know their stuff expect reasonable pay, retail hours are hard work - for 0nly 20%-30% gross margins - I don't think so.
New product was slow to come to market, but did always sell well and help drive interest in the hobby, nothing new there.
We could see in the 80's the new product growth starting to change the market. We new then you would have to "be big" or stay home. So what is going on now, is old news to me - I lived its beginings and evolution.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Model trains have ALWAYS been manufactured in short run, "limited" batches. The only difference now is the manufacturers tell us that and use it to prompt sales. Back in the day Athearn would have NEVER told the general public what was in stock or sold out at the factory and relied on the distributor and dealer network to actually "keep it in stock" hopefully until the next batch was made so as to provide a sense that the product was always available. Now everyone want to "sell out" with no regard for that customer who comes along between production runs. Dealers can't aford big standing inventories, distributors are dieing, manufacturers are trying to "sell out" quickly on each run. Not a good business model in my view - as I have discussed on here before. Sheldon
Model trains have ALWAYS been manufactured in short run, "limited" batches. The only difference now is the manufacturers tell us that and use it to prompt sales. Back in the day Athearn would have NEVER told the general public what was in stock or sold out at the factory and relied on the distributor and dealer network to actually "keep it in stock" hopefully until the next batch was made so as to provide a sense that the product was always available.
Now everyone want to "sell out" with no regard for that customer who comes along between production runs. Dealers can't aford big standing inventories, distributors are dieing, manufacturers are trying to "sell out" quickly on each run. Not a good business model in my view - as I have discussed on here before.
Sheldon that is a very interesting observation. These days once you hear the words "limited run" you tend to buy stuff you think you might need some day almost out of a sense of panic -- you snooze, you lose.
From the perspective of what this or that local hobby shop carried, it almost didn't matter back then that Athearn and other manufacturers created their stuff in production runs -- because they shut up about what was out of stock. That mean there was no panic to buy anything, with the result that old and new stuff could co-exist on the shelves. Sometimes you'd see the old yellow boxes in the same stacks as the blue boxes. Even brass was sold that way. Of course back then even the explicitly limited run "1 of 5000" Ambroid kits could be found on the shelves because, after all, 5000 was still alot of kits!
The only manufacturer I can think of that follows that philosophy now is Micro Engineering. When the stuff runs out it runs out, but they'll get around to another batch ... eventually. So if Walthers is all out of a M-E item maybe your LHS has plenty. No panic.
Dave Nelson