Are you a member of the National Model Railroad Assoc. (NMRA)?

[mlehman]

Wow, this is really gratifying. I want to thank NP2626 for starting it and everyone else for participating in a really good discussion. It's good to see people getting involved in spreading the joys of this hobby a little more formally, so those of you who've joined or even considered joining made my day.

Ordinarily, I'm just a forum member and rarely even discuss the NMRA or my involvement. It's interesting how many helpful we know here are already members, too. Whether or not we make a point of noting our membership, I hope that we all make a point of doing the kind of effective work in promoting the organization as we've done here and do with a much lower profile in other threads, forums, and venues. It's something that's good for the NMRA, but also is good for the interests of all model railroaders, whether they join or not.

[tin can]

To answer the OP...

No.  I was a member, during the time period when funds were being raised for the national headquarters building.  I got tired of the constant solicitations in the magazine, so I didn't renew.

I appreciate the standards created by the NMRA.

I don't have the time to actively participate in our local club, much less the NMRA.  I'm told that you get more time for yourself when your kids go off to college; we'll see....

[trainnut1250]

Here is my two cents on this:

In addition to the benefits of standards (which I consider to be a big deal), I have gained huge personal benefits from joining.

In 2000 I was lone wolf with a nearly complete layout.  I joined the NMRA for the opportunity to be on the layout tours at the national convention that was held near my home that year.  In the process of being on the tour, I met a group of local modelers that totally changed my perspective on the hobby.  My modeling and overall enjoyment of the hobby has made vast leaps forward through my friendship with this group.  Meeting these guys happened because of the NMRA and I will always suppot the organization on that basis alone.

Guy

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

I think my posts have included quite a bit of info on how NMRA membership has benifited me in the hobby, and what aspects of it I consider important - both now and 40 years ago when I joined.

And I have clearly stated that some aspects of it are not for me, or do not fit into my lifestyle and personal situation.

To Rich and all - Over the years I have answered a large number of prototype and modeling questions on this forum. Amoung the resources in my personal library that have provided me access to the information others have needed, one often used text is my original NMRA Standards, RP's and Data Sheets.

Questions like # of steam locos of a given type produced, correct names of prototype railroads, reporting marks, all sorts of prototype engneering data, all from my 1968 Data Sheets.

It made me a better modeler.

Sheldon

[NP2626]

Per richotrain: "And, when the O.P. speaks of "supporting" the NMRA, is that a reference to financial support?"

It is a reference to "Support", in what ever way "Support" can be given.  If you feel you can support the things that need supporting in model railroading without being a member of the NMRA, wonderful!  I really have no dog in this hunt, at least at this time.  My mind is not made up about membership, yet.

[Aikidomaster]

I am a Life Member of the NMRA. I became a member of the NMRA when I became Assistant Superintendent of my Division and later Superintendent. I was a lot younger then, and felt that model railroading would be a life time hobby. I was right, it is. I was also interested in the AP and possibly earning an MMR. After several relocations, I no longer live near any active Divisions. I did attend my first MER Convention this year in more than 15 years. It was great!!

I am thinking about the Achievement Program again. I have 6 Merit Awards in Structures from the 1990's and enter my first Regional Contest ever this past fall (structures). Although my 2 entries did not earn Merit Awards, it made me interested in the Achievement Program again. As I get older, I find model railroading to be more rewarding for me and the NMRA as a bonus. It is a place to meet new friends who like the things that I like.

[IRONROOSTER]

Just an FYI on the benefits of membership list,  The Heritage and Living Legends Collectors Cars program has ended and the remaining cars were sold at reduced prices.

Enjoy

Paul

NMRA member #024602 since 1972.

[simon1966]

Rich,

I too have been following this thread with interest.  Unlike you, it appears to me that there have been many advantages of membership discussed.  Local events, national events, clinics, fellowship and friendship, skill improvement, the publications, etc.  In fact most of the responses from NMRA members relate the benefits that they as individuals get from membership.

I am fairly certain that the NMRA runs advertisements within the pages of MRR, also the local chapter here is frequently to be seen handing out fliers at train-shows.  There is also the NMRA web site, which has this page http://www.nmra.org/membership/member.html#join   Anyway, the upshot of all this is that I have quit vacillating and went ahead and joined this afternoon.

[richhotrain]

Mike,

Thanks again, and thanks for those links.

I will look into this matter further.

Rich

[mlehman]

Rich,

[EDIT: I think our posts crossed along the way. Here's a good start on benefits]

IIRC  someone linked some info about benefits earlier. Here are a few specific links that provide more info:

The beginners page, probably not needed for many, it's still useful for some:

http://www.nmra.org/beginner/

An overview of member services:

http://www.nmra.org/membership/member.html

The library can provides copies of articles, book citations, and other info hard to find elsewhere:

http://www.nmra.org/library/

Some of the special collections available:

http://www.nmra.org/library/collection.html

If the not best, one of the best collections of model railroad and other links on the internet:

http://www.nmra.org/directory/

Photo gallery sites index:

http://www.nmra.org/directory/photogalleries/Photoa-AM.html

The new online photo archive:

http://archive.nmra.org/Home.aspx

I could go on, but those are ones that many people can see a lot of value in without getting up from the computer.

[richhotrain]

mlehman

Rich,

I can't speak for Sheldon, but I suspect he's using it in the same way I am. "Free rider" is a term used in political science theory, among other places, in evaluating the impacts of policy decisions that are affected by the fact that when people are given the option of participation in something without an investment in it they have a different relationship to that policy, product, service, whatever, than someone who's made an investment in it.

I do not intend for it to be derogatory in any form or fashion. It's simply an observation about a phenomenon. In this case, all model railroaders benefit from the efforts of the NMRA, but only a small number of them support that work financially.

In fact, your proposal will suffer from the same problem, which is one of human nature. Some companies would embrace it and others would say, let the other guy worry about it.

That said, the NMRA is a voluntary association. It's in no position to force anyone to join. In fact, what's at stake is that the NMRA must convince people that it's worth their while, let alone their dollars. Your question about what the benefits are is a good one. I think the response that you're already benefiting from the NMRA's efforts is a legitimate answer, whether or not it inspires a more direct interest on your part by joining.

Mike, thanks for those comments.  I appreciate them.

What doesn't seem to come across in this thread, at least as it relates to me, is that i have nothing but respect for the NMRA, although I know little about its work and its accomplishments.  The more positive comments made in this thread have been informative to me in this regard.

I commented in a personal email to a friend of mine who is also a member of this forum that I have never seen any literature or marketing materials from the NMRA, never been contacted by them, never had membership suggested to me by anyone. 

So, now that we have a thread asking why we are not members, how about a thread that addresses the benefits of membership?

Rich

[richhotrain]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And apparently it is about money for you since you are so concerned about what YOU will get in return for your $66.

LOL

Too bad that an otherwise decent reply from you had to end on such a sour note.

It has nothing to do with money with me.  Once this thread started, I got to thinking for the first time about the NMRA as an organization and what the advantages of membership might be.

When I speak of "advantages", I am not speaking per se of "what's in it for me" but what I am wondering about is whether membership can help me gain additional insights into the hobby, a better understanding of railroading as an industry, how to be a better modeler, etc.

I am still wondering because I haven't heard much about the advantages of membership on this thread, just sort of a guilt trip for those who aren't members.

Rich

[mlehman]

Rich,

I can't speak for Sheldon, but I suspect he's using it in the same way I am. "Free rider" is a term used in political science theory, among other places, in evaluating the impacts of policy decisions that are affected by the fact that when people are given the option of participation in something without an investment in it they have a different relationship to that policy, product, service, whatever, than someone who's made an investment in it.

I do not intend for it to be derogatory in any form or fashion. It's simply an observation about a phenomenon. In this case, all model railroaders benefit from the efforts of the NMRA, but only a small number of them support that work financially.

In fact, your proposal will suffer from the same problem, which is one of human nature. Some companies would embrace it and others would say, let the other guy worry about it.

That said, the NMRA is a voluntary association. It's in no position to force anyone to join. In fact, what's at stake is that the NMRA must convince people that it's worth their while, let alone their dollars. Your question about what the benefits are is a good one. I think the response that you're already benefiting from the NMRA's efforts is a legitimate answer, whether or not it inspires a more direct interest on your part by joining.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Rich, this is a hobby who's industry is made up of small companies. Even the largest of them, Walthers, Bachmann, Atlas, Athearn, MTH, Bowser, etc, are small in business world scheme of things.

And most of them are privately held, that is A SINGLE PERSON or a family, or a small group of owners, own and operate the company.

And most are menbers of the NMRA, and the Hobby Industry Association. Over the years in this hobby many of them have, and still do, make donations to the NMRA. and as NMRA members their companies pay sustaining membership rates - $110.00 per year.

And, yes, to a degree it is about money. Without money you would not have any trains. Without money to invest the manufacturers could not make any trains for you to by.

Hank Jr said "everything comes down to love and money".

And apparently it is about money for you since you are so concerned about what YOU will get in return for your $66.

Sheldon

[richhotrain]

So, Sheldon, tell us this.

When you talk of a "free ride", is that a reference to the fact that each non-member deprives the NMRA of a potential $66?

And, when the O.P. speaks of "supporting" the NMRA, is that a reference to financial support?

Is that what this is all about, a financial issue?

If it is, let me suggest this.  Have the NMRA suggest to every manufacturer of model railroading equipment that they each set aside one cent from every product sale and contribute it to the NMRA in their best interest to ensure continuing uniformity in meeting NMRA standards.  One penny per product would be a helluva lot more than $66 each from a bunch of new NMRA members.

Maybe the hobbyists benefit from standards and uniformity, but the manufacturers benefit even more from a broader customer base for their products.

Rich

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

What can or will the NMRA do for you?

Well, since it seems that only one out of every 10 or 20 modelers belongs to the NMRA, imagine this:

If NMRA membership increased by a factor of 5 next year, even if not one of those new members volunteered any time or effort, just paid their dues and read the mag, then those already willing to write data sheets, scan and catalog photos, lobby for better compliance from manufacturers, test exisiting products for compliance, and so forth, would then have 5 times the resources to complete those tasks - to the benifit of EVERYONE in the hobby.

Then they could do a LOT more for all of us. And if just a few of those new members go to conventions/meets, volunteer to hold office, gets their local division back in action, then the effect would be even greater.

My $66 is committed without reservation.

Sheldon

[Stourbridge Lion]

richhotrain

 

 

 

As others have asked, NP2626, why lock it?  The discussion has been civil, tempers have not flared, flaming has not broken out.  The discussion is worthwhile, and the answers to your question of membership, if not why not, are plentiful.

As mentioned, the Moderators have chosen not to lock the thread because for a change things have stayed calm and remains a healthy Pro/Con discussion as to why folks do/don't join.

[mlehman]

Ulrich,

You make a very important point. It's one of those benefits that people want to know more about. It's a globalized world that we live in now. Would manufacturers moving in different directions with standards be good for American modelers? Probably not. And it doesn't matter whether many models are built in China right now, as if they aren't made there in the future, they will be made somewhere else.

Interestingly, the NMRA has just opened discussions with the major Chinese modelling group. One of the main interests of the Chinese is adherence to NMRA standards, but I'm sure there is much that we'll find in common, given the global marketplace and the fact that people in many other countries model US railroads, as well as more Americans being interested in modelling other nation's railroads.

While the NMRA has around 20,000 members, the Chinese organization has 100,000! Given the growth in the Chinese economy, that number may well grow. They represent a significant market force, even though I'm certain that very few of them have basements or garages to build American-size layouts in. Whether you're a member or not, the NMRA is there representing YOUR interests.

That brings me to the "free rider" issue. People should not take offense when it's brought up. It's a well known phenomenon and it won't go away. There will always be those who for a variety of reasons are complacent in just going with the flow and taking whatever comes along, simply can't afford the cost, or see nothing of particular value to them.

But there is a downside of "free riding" -- you don't have a vote or say in the NMRA. Given that many people say they're not members because of "X with the NMRA" the only way to change that is to become  a member and exert your influence.

The expertise that the NMRA will have WILL influence the Chinese in some form or fashion, but like many things the NMRA does, the results or importance tend to be long-range and perhaps hard to discern by many. But don't pretend that this isn't important to the future of our hobby, what we have available to purchase, and the tools and techniques of the future. It is. The only question as far as NMRA membership is concerned with such things at an individual level is whether or not you want to be in the position to have effective input. It's your choice, as just one of the benefits of NMRA membership is its influence on the future direction of our hobby.

[Anonymous]

No, I am not a member of the NMRA, but just because I cannot squeeze out the few $$$ membership fee.

I think ,the NMRA has done a wonderful job of "pushing" the industry into the right direction. When I started to read MR in my teens (that was in the 1960´s!) , model railroading in the US was very much advanced to what could be seen in Europe, where we still have to cope with pizza-cutter wheels, code 100+ rail, and myriads of different couplers. Much of the progress in those days is owed to the NMRA.

Just my

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Yes, I am a member of NMRA. 

[NP2626]

howmus

Hi NP,

The only way you will know if you like the NMRA is to join and give it a try...  Only costs $9.95.  You can't go wrong with the railpass 6 months membership.  If you like what you see re-up after the 6 months.  iI you don't let it expire.  But!  Do get to some meetings, read the newsletters and magazines, and meet some of the folks who are the NMRA.

BTW, if you want it permanently locked, just go to the options  at the upper right hand corner of a post, and click reprt abuse.  You can send a message to a moderator who will very likely lock it for you.

Have fun!

73

I have stated that I have joined the NMRA through the Rail pass Program, for $9.95, in my very first post, where I asked the questions about the NMRA.

[richhotrain]

NP2626

Well, I guess I can't lock it!

I guess supporting an organization that has been instrumental in the shapping of an activity is important to some and not important to others! 

As others have asked, NP2626, why lock it?  The discussion has been civil, tempers have not flared, flaming has not broken out.  The discussion is worthwhile, and the answers to your question of membership, if not why not, are plentiful.  There is a shortage of answers to my main question though, and that is what are the advantages of membership?

What I don't like about this thread is the clear bias toward membership.  And, you have added to it with your most recent statement, "I guess supporting an organization that has been instrumental in the shapping of an activity is important to some and not important to others!".  Our fellow forum member, Lake, doesn't make matters any better by praising Sheldon and Betamax for their points of views while ignoring anyone's point of view who is not a member of the NMRA.

I am sure that the NMRA is a fine organization, an important group that early on set standards for the hobby, and the members find benefit to being members.  Great!    But, why should I or anyone else on this forum, who is not a member, become a member?  What are the advantages?

As I mentioned earlier, you can buy a product and benefit from the standards of the organization promoting it without actually being a member of that organization - - - and do so without guilt that you are somehow getting a "free ride".

As the OP of this thread, instead of locking it, you could relate to the rest of us non-members your reasons for joining the NMRA.  Share with us your experiences.  Tell us why we should join.  Tell us why you joined.  Tell us what are the advantages of membership. 

Rich

[betamax]

mlehman

There is one thread that ties together a lot of "the NMRA is OK except [insert bad personal experience]" comments. People should consider that the NMRA is composed of all sorts of people. We don't screen folks, ask you to pass a test, make you go through some arcane initiation, or require years of study. Just like in any other facet of daily life, you could meet just about any kind of person. I truly hope they're all good folks and represent the hobby well, but we're dealing with humans here, folks.

The NMRA is no more or less fallible than any other organization. For the most part, I'm not discounting anyone's bad experience or suggesting that it's no big deal. It obviously is to them.

Agreed.

The NMRA at the local level is in no way reflective of the organization as a whole.  Some divisions are run well, others are managed rather poorly. That really comes down to the people who are running the division, and the members who allow this.  (That is why there are rules regarding how elections are held, term limits, etc.) If you feel your division is going off the rails, make it known to the executive. If you really want to put the train back on the track, run for office.

The NMRA has evolved over time.  So has the magazine.  It wasn't always the slick, professionally produced monthly you see today.

The NMRA Bulletins were just black and white, newspaper quality newsletters at one time. As to the content, so people may not have been in on the running jokes.  As with all magazines, they reflect the spirit of the times they were written in. Just look back at any magazine from the 60s or 70s, be it Model Railroader or Popular Mechanics. What was quite acceptable at the time is not acceptable today. They also evolved, editorially and technically, as time passed, reflecting our expectations in the process.

The NMRA is what you make of it.

 

[mlehman]

I think it's been an interesting and thoughtful thread, for the most part. Kind of hope it isn't locked, as even those I disagree with seem to be reasonable.

There is one thread that ties together a lot of "the NMRA is OK except [insert bad personal experience]" comments. People should consider that the NMRA is composed of all sorts of people. We don't screen folks, ask you to pass a test, make you go through some arcane initiation, or require years of study. Just like in any other facet of daily life, you could meet just about any kind of person. I truly hope they're all good folks and represent the hobby well, but we're dealing with humans here, folks.

The NMRA is no more or less fallible than any other organization. For the most part, I'm not discounting anyone's bad experience or suggesting that it's no big deal. It obviously is to them.

Consider if you're interested in finding out more about the NMRA that you probably won't have a bad experience. And times, people, and divisions all change, especially when people participate who want to make things work.

The only story I found a little curious was the one about teenage modelers being denied something to do with an MMR. Teenagers and adults don't always communicate well, based on my own experience pretty evenly resposnible when that happens. But you have to EARN a MMR. It's not something that someone can keep you from doing, unless is was someone in the NMRA being irresponsible with paperwork (which is why cuyama asked some of the questions he did, so far without clarification.)

Does anyone really think that the NMRA has any intent as an organization to discourage people from getting involved in model railroading? Sure, there can be mistakes made, individuals with bad attitudes, know-it-alls.... but hey, that's life and you'll run into these sorts of things anywhere in life. The NMRA is certainly no worse than any other organization of its type. One things certain  though. If I let the people who ticked me off when i was a teenager still dictate what I might or might not do years later, I wouldn't have much of a life.

I will throw out another idea. Before the internet, virtually the only place to get plugged into model railroading beyond what you could read in the hobby magazines if you weren't someplace that had an active local club was by joining the NMRA. That's different now, with forums like this, various email lists, etc. And someone mentioned the very important growth of historical societies. The NMRA has to compete with all those things now. That in itself is making it a better organization.

For some people, that's all they need. I certainly didn't imply in my earlier comments that every model railroader should be in the NMRA. I don't think anyone else did either. What was pointed out is that every model railroader has already benefited from the efforts of the NMRA. I think it's important to continue supporting that. But I also find value in getting to know new people, learning new techniques, finding new operators on my layout, etc. Some people don't place as much importance on such things or are fortunate to have other ways of making that happen. For the rest of us, the NMRA is a pretty good deal.

[cmrproducts]

While I have been a member of the NMRA since the mid 80's and even started a new Division - the Division soon lost direction and decided meetings were more fun then actually running trains.

The meeting places soon only were just for the meetings and figuring out ways to spend money by having meeting on tourist trains etc.

The economy wasn't getting any better and soon a lot of the Division members began dropping the membership and joining a round robin group that would visit a layout with the intentions of having an OPs Session.

There are NO Meetings - NO Officers and NO costs and our e-Newsletter is FREE and there is no commitment - If you don't attend - the only thing you miss is all of the fun we are having!

As we began these OPs visits - more layout owners would ask us if we wanted to come run their layout.

Soon we were having OPs Sessions twice a month and having to turn down layouts to run on (which we hated to do) but we had to keep the other half happy!

And where is the Division today - still dumming around swamped in their business meetings wondering why it is so boring!

While some Divisions are going great guns - they have a lot of members but they like to sit through meetings - yah - they have a clinic or two but doing hands on OPs is a lot more fun.

And I don't have to prove anything to anyone - I just go have fun running trains!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

 

 

[howmus]

Hi NP,

The only way you will know if you like the NMRA is to join and give it a try...  Only costs $9.95.  You can't go wrong with the railpass 6 months membership.  If you like what you see re-up after the 6 months.  iI you don't let it expire.  But!  Do get to some meetings, read the newsletters and magazines, and meet some of the folks who are the NMRA.

BTW, if you want it permanently locked, just go to the options  at the upper right hand corner of a post, and click reprt abuse.  You can send a message to a moderator who will very likely lock it for you.

Have fun!

73

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BRAKIE

ATLANTIC CENTRAL:

BRAKIE:

richhotrain:

betamax,

I don't think anyone is arguing anything to the contrary. The NMRA is a worthwhile organization.

But as to the original issue of membership, is it your position that anyone and everyone in the model railroading hobby should be a member of the NMRA?

Rich

 

Rich,At one time most HO clubs was 100% NMRA membership and if you wanted to join you had to join the NMRA as well.Back then it was a good thing to belong to the NMRA and have a voice and vote.

Even the NMRA designed X2F coupler was sorely needed in order to have a common coupler instead of a hodgepodge of manufacturers couplers that wouldn't couple with other brands.

 

Larry,

That is an intersting experiance you have about clubs and the NMRA. In 40 years in this hobby, not one club here in the Mid Atlantic that I have known of requires or required NMRA membership.

Sheldon

 

Sheldon,Only 40 years?  That's a long time but,not quite long enough.

Try the 40s, 50s and 60s when the NMRA was big and was sitting Standards and RPs that you enjoy today..

My dad was a NMRA member and I started going with him to the Division 6 meetings in the mid 50s and I can still recall the debates(some heated) and voting. I joined the NMRA in 1964 and joined in on the debates and voting.

The Columbus HO Club was 100% NMRA club back then..

You may find this interesting.

http://nmra.org/regions/100Club/100ClubList.html

Well Larry, there are only two groups on that relatively short list that are anywhere close to here, so my point stands pretty well.

As for the 50's or early 60's, I can't say. Being a young pup born in 1957, I did not really become active in the hobby on my own until about 1968. I was one of the youngest members ever given full un-sponsered membership at the Severna Park Model Railroad Club at age 14-15, about 1972. As a member of that group I visited many other local and regional clubs/groups - many individuals, including myself, were NMRA members, but none of the groups in this region required NMRA membership in the 70's or beyond based on my knowledge and experiances.

I have been an NMRA member since then, but as stated earlier, conventions, traveling, even local meets generally do not fit in well with my other obligations.

I belong to a local round robin were I live now in the north east area of Maryland, and honestly no longer have any interest in clubs beyond that group. The round robin is perfect for me, no dues, no politics, show up if you want, don't if can't/don't want to. Help other build their layouts if they ask - and you have the time/desire - or not. 

I support the NMRA because I believe the work they do is important, not because of anything I get from my membership. I am a small part of the group working on restoring the DATA SHEET program because it is of interest to me, I can do it via the net, and being a construction professional in real life I have knowledge in technical areas that some of the data sheets will/should cover.

I still have my orginal Standards, RP's and Data Sheets from when I joined 40 plus years ago and still find them to be a valueable modeling resource.

In lots of ways I'm not a joiner or a socializer, but I do believe in supporting groups that do important work. The NMRA is one of those.

And, the NMRA is also a do what you can/when you can no additional obligation membership for me. I would likely never hold an office, lead a committee, etc. Contributing to the DATA SHEETS is about my limit - a man needs to know his limitations.

But an extra $66 a year - in relation to what I spend on this hobby - and considering how long I have been in this hobby, and the fact that I once worked in this business, I would be embarressed to not be a member.

Obviously much of this post is not just for Larry's benifit, I hope those of you following this debate understand my view.

Sheldon

 

 

 

[NP2626]

Well, I guess I can't lock it!

I guess supporting an organization that has been instrumental in the shapping of an activity is important to some and not important to others! 

[BRAKIE]

If you extend that argument to its natural conclusion, you would be required to be a member of NMRA, and show proof of membership, to purchase any model railroading equipment or supplies, ranging from locomotives to rolling stock to electronics to track to ballast to ground cover.

Rich

------------------------

Rich,It was no where like that..

Modelers at that time was very active in the NMRA and it only made good sense to support the NMRA for its hard work and dictation by requesting new club members to join the NMRA..IIRC the NMRA dues was only $6.00 a year back then-most club dues in the Columbus area was $2.00 a month..

Remember those are the old line modelers that help set the standards and RPs by voting at their local division and during the National  Convention..