I find the information Sheldon has put out to be most enlightening. I have used 2 and at times 3 T/E systems simultaneously for years with no problems. Each has it's own MRC power pack set to put out 18 volts. This is not meant to be argumentative and i think i know why there has been no trouble for me even though everything is common rail wired with a humongous # 10 buss wire running all under the layout for ground. Rotary switches control power assignment to around 100 blocks.
In the first place, i have never tried to operate more than one train on the main line at any given time. Multiple operation consists of transfer and interchange runs on the secondary trackage and yard switching. When operating alone, which is most of the time now that I am retired, I rarely run a train around and around on the main line loop unless i want to run in an engine after repairs or to just give it a little break in.
Second thing, on the rare occasions that a reverse movement or "poke" is needed on the main from the yard or secondary, it is done in accordance with prototype operating rules and proper blocking is applied to the circuits on either side of the violated block. (rotary switches are turned off)
I can see where bridging a gap with a locomotive when the polarities are reversed would cause a dead short, it is just that the operating procedures I use have so far prevented that from happening.
Sheldon's advice will result in my being even more vigilant in the future even though i have been getting away with operating as i do for almost 20 years.
When friends come to operate with me, I will make sure they understand the rules about not fouling any of the track circuits they do not have assigned to their throttle.
Charlie
oldscout Thank you the layout will be a large dog bone with passing sidings, couple of industrial sidings, with a cross ove,r so two reversing sections. With the control panel switching between cab a and cab b would I have the same problem with two regular transformers?
Thank you the layout will be a large dog bone with passing sidings, couple of industrial sidings, with a cross ove,r so two reversing sections. With the control panel switching between cab a and cab b would I have the same problem with two regular transformers?
No, with two regular transformers common rail works great, it is the internal design of the TE that seems problematic.
I'm not saying it won't work, but I did not like some of the behaviors I experienced in my tests.
And as I just explained, a lot of the advanced features of my control system depend on not using common rail.
Sheldon
I took a look at some of my drawings and notes from the development of my control system.
Two problems in particular lead me away from common rail wiring.
If you ran past a gap into the cab with the polarity reversed - it instantly blew the fuses on both throttles.
If you ran past the gap with polarity the same, speed doubled and there was no control, the pulse width signals doubled in "value".
And I do seem to recall other erratic behavior that I have never experienced with total isolation.
I will look thru more of my notes and let you know if I find more info.
I use a push button controlled cab selection system that uses relays to connect the track sections to the throttles, I do not use toggle switches or rotary switches.
I use a somewhat complex system of overlapping gaping and X sections to power interlockings so that they are fully automatic. Relays, which control the switch machines, also direct power from the correct mainline blocks all the way through turnouts, crossovers and complex junctions (interlockings)
This combines with a "coincidence circuit" as used by Bruce Cubb in his original signal system to provide simplified CTC operation and dispatcher control of blocks and signals all in one step.
In other words, the dispatcher aligns mainline turnouts and assigns cabs to blocks. Only when a route is properly connected does a signal turn green. If a train runs a red signal, there is a section of track between it and the next block that is effectively dead to that throttle, so the train stops.
Without a dispatcher on duty, these same cab assignments can be made at local tower panels along the layout for full walk around operation.
Detectors on each block are linked to the signal system in several ways. First to provide indication of trains and drive red signals and second they lock out turnout operation of interlockings that are occupied by trains - just like in real life.
None of this is possible with common rail.
oldscout I should explain and mybe we are not talking about the same, my side. What I ment and am probley wrong is that the negitive rail is all connected together. The positive rail is isolated into blocks. I just tested the hidden yard panel and it worked very well. Are we talking about the same thing?
I should explain and mybe we are not talking about the same, my side. What I ment and am probley wrong is that the negitive rail is all connected together. The positive rail is isolated into blocks. I just tested the hidden yard panel and it worked very well. Are we talking about the same thing?
Yes, but did you have two or more throttles hooked up to the system? There is no positive or negative rail once you have two throttles on a common rail cab control system and you change the direction of one of the throttles. At that point the "common" becomes both a positive and a negative - that is were the problems with common rail showed up for me with the TE.
The other advantage to not using common rail is the ability to stagger gaps and create automatic safety dead zones between each cab.
I would say if it works for you great. I tested the TE for about 3 months in various wiring configurations before deciding to use it. I decided against common rail do to several feedback issues I had. I also use the feature mentioned above which does not work with common rail.
One other note, if you plan to use detectors, I found that common rail type detectors, like Twin T, did not work well either. I use inductive detectors and run both wires of each block thru the inductive coil from opposite directions.
I think the issue is related to the combination of the pluse width control and the radio control, with no "hard pot" controling the circuit. I maybe wrong but that is what I recall, that was a number of years ago.
oldscout I am looking at purchasing TE and have been reserching information on the system. What I read is everyone that has one seams to really like it. I read that the system does not like common rail. Why not. The system is not made for the smaller scale but I do not understand why. Did Crest think that everyone would go DCC. Do you know if the new generationd reciever would work with the system. The transmitter looks to be the same ART-5070.
I am looking at purchasing TE and have been reserching information on the system. What I read is everyone that has one seams to really like it. I read that the system does not like common rail. Why not. The system is not made for the smaller scale but I do not understand why. Did Crest think that everyone would go DCC. Do you know if the new generationd reciever would work with the system. The transmitter looks to be the same ART-5070.
Common rail wiring - first why would you want to use common rail wiring, there are number of reasons for and against common rail that do not relate to the Train Engineer throttle, but being solid state, and not being controlled by a mechanical "pot", there is no absolute off with the TE. This causes problems as multiple throttles and power supplies are grounded together for common rail.
Yes, older receivers and transmitters will work with the newer ones, as long as they are all the "10 channel" version TE.
Crest never said it was not for smaller scales, it was simply never marketed heavily to smaller scales. Not because they did not think it was good, but because they are primarily a large scale company.
I have eight of them for my HO layout and a friend of mine has six of them on his, all with separate power supplies for each throttle.
I have known a number of both HO and N scale modelers who have used them over the years.
nick45326,
OK, linking the controller can sometimes be a little confussing or touchy, but you will get use to it.
You may want to double check it, by simply doing it over, to be sure the momentum is set on "A", for the fastest start up.
Even on "A" there is a very slight momentum. Imagine how your remote for you stereo turns up the volume, that is how the Aristo turns up the voltage, it "ramps up" at a steady rate. If you just touch the button and release it you have just moved it a little bit, maybe enough to start the loco, maybe not.
Once you get use to it, this is a very nice and realistic operating feature.
Each loco will respond differently. Some will start moving very soon, others will take longer. As we discussed before, is it a straight DC loco? Locos with dual mode decoders may work OK, especially with the pluse width modulation (PWM) turned off, but they will have very long start times.
As for the pulse width modulation, ignore the manual, it will work fine with all straight DC locos. Aristo is just covering their butts knowing that PWM does not like DCC decoders, coreless motors, or overly complex lighting and some DC sound boards used in large scale.
I know dozens of Aristo users, including myself, who have used the TE in PWM mode for years,with every brand and type of loco out there - never burned up anything.
Yes the clicking is normal when you change direction. Direction is handled by a latching relay, that's why it makes noise.
As for the lights, thery indicate freq. and channel. There are 10 freq. and 10 chanels on each freq.
So, first you set the freq. on the hand held, then set the channel. So lets sy you set them to freq 1, channel 1, the first light should be blinking.
To link that transmitter to the base, press and hold the button on the base. Prsss "A" on the transmitter. When the light on th base starts blinking release the button on the base and press "A" on the transmitter a second time.
After that the base light should stop blinking and go out. It will come on steady any time you push a commant button on the transmitter if they are properly linked.
If you use more than one system, it is best to use different freq and channel for each - example put one on freq 1-channel 1, the next on freq 2-channel 2, etc.
One more tip about getting use to controlling your locos - to start a loco push and hold the fast button until you see the slightest sign of motion, then release the button as soon as you see motion, and wait a second or two to see how fast it is going - then adjust your speed from there.
You will quickly learn the response curve of each your locos and if you have the PWM on, the lights will light before the loco moves. On PWM the starts will be smoother and more controlled and starting speeds will be lower. BUT the amount of time you hold the fast button down before the loco moves will continue to be different with each loco - with or wihout PWM turned on.
Most modern locos with can motors will start very slowly in a second or two just like DCC. Some older locos with higher current motors will take longer.
Simply because it is different than you are use to, just keep playing with it. You will get the hang of it fast enough and will likely come to like the push button control very much - I know I do.
Thanks everyone for there replies. I actually found a crest train engineer 5470 earlier last week. I just got around to testing it out on my layout in progress and I have a few questions I hope you can answer.
1. First I found the linking of the controller a little strange and complicated (I am not sure if I linked it correctly or if it worked and I am not sure what the red lighted frequency numbers mean?). Which leads me to my first question.. my locomotive runs.. I was able to start, stop, and use the reverse and emergency stop. However, I find when I try to start up the locomotive it is taking a very very very long time to get started. I can push the FAST button and or hold it down for what seems like forever and nothing happens until finally it decides it wants to start running. I thought I selected the A button which should be faster starts and stops but without knowing if I linked properly I do not know. If this is normal for this system (very long starts) I would like to know so I don't waste my time troubleshooting. If someone could walk be through the linking process a little more clearer then the directions that would be great as well.
2. The system makes a clicking noise when I reverse.. is this normal for this system? Not a major deal but sort of annoying.
3. The manual says to NOT use non artisto-craft locos when using pulse width control.. Is this true or can I use this feature with my standard DC locomotives without a problem.
Other then the very slow starting I like the system.
Decoder ready just means there is a plug to install a decoder. These will give no problem.
It's not a starting voltage issue, it's the fact that the PWM voltage control used by the Crest system easily confuses a decoder and will cause erractic operation. Ditto those capacitors on Bachmann locos - they cause issues with DCC decoders AND with the Train Engineer power.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Decoder equipped locomotives require a higher starting voltage than those without a decoder, especially if they have a sound decoder in them.
DCC ready and/or DCC Quick Plug equipped just means that they are easily converted to DCC, but do not have a decoder installed and should be the same as a straight DC loco.
Sheldon,
You said this system will not work well with locos equiped with dual mode DCC decoders. Do you know if engines that say they are DCC ready or DCC Quick-Plug equipped will work well? I am specificaly looking at the athearn gp7 genesis line or the bachman and spectrum line of engines that say that are dcc ready?
nick45326 Sounds like this should be a great setup for me. The only thing that bothers me a little is the buttons to control the train.. Is the controller easy to use for stopping and starting and switch work? I wish this had a dial or knob to control speed :(
Sounds like this should be a great setup for me. The only thing that bothers me a little is the buttons to control the train.. Is the controller easy to use for stopping and starting and switch work? I wish this had a dial or knob to control speed :(
That was one of my concerns at first too, but now that I have them I prefer the buttons to a knob.
Be sure to set the momentum at zero, choice "A", if you are going to do a lot of switching.
With a little practice you will fine it very easy to stop the train where/when you want. It has both a button that slows the loco to a stop and a button that is an "emergency" stop. At slow speeds the emergency stop with allow you to smoothly couple to cars, stop in exact locations, etc.
Also at slow speeds you can change direction withoutstopping - BECAUSE - when the direction button is pushed, the controller actually slows the train to a stop, then reverses it and powers it up to the previous voltage automaticly. So at slow speeds, simply pushing the oposite direction button smoothly stops the loco, then starts it again smoothly in the other direction - very useful in switching once you learn how.
Also, be sure to set the unit to the "pluse width" setting for better slow speed and smoother control. This will also allow you to power up the loco enough to turn typical constant brightness headlights on BEFORE the loco starts moving. This will not harm your locos or the controller.
WARNING - this system will not work well with locos equiped with dual mode DCC decoders or dual mode DDC decoders with sound. You should only use this system with true DC locos. I remove the decoders from any DCC locos I happen to purchase.
Hope that helps.
I use the Train Engineer throttles on my layout, I have eight of them connected to an advanced cab control system.
For your purposes it should work very well. A few pointers:
Your power pack will work as a power supply, but something like this would be better:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pyramid-Power-Supply-Model-PS-4KX-DC-Output-13-8V-3Amp-Constant-4Amp-Surge-VNice-/320847783516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab404a65c
This is a filtered and regulated supply that provides the perfect voltage and plenty of power for HO or N scale.
Also, you can shorten the antenna for indoor use. Call the Aristo Craft parts department and see if they have any "rubber ducky" antennas in stock. Or, if you are handy you can make your own. Or, contact me by PM and I can send you one. If you get one from Aristo, you can even shorten theirs by about 1/3 with no loss of indoor range. Mine work from over 200 feet away, even with 4" antennas.
Or, you can just keep the rigid antenna but you don't need to extend it if normal indoor use.
Read and understand the programing of the momentum and reverse delay features.
Use ONLY good quality alkaline batteries, take them out during extended (6 months or more) inactivity. They will last a long time - 6 months to year typically.
Get the optional cooling fan and install it on the base station.
Welcome to easy to use wireless train control.
I've got one and have used it in the past on my layout to do exactly what you want to do, before I converted to a NCE wireless DCC system. The Crest receiver goes in between your power pack and the track. It's then controlled by the handheld transmitter. Very simple and straightforward wiring. Hook power pack to it and it to the track through the standard two wires.
AFAIK, you should still be able to use the AC terminals on the power pack. The Crest runs on the DC side.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Hi all,
I am in the middle of planning out a track plan on my new layout. A few months back I bought an MRC Tech 4 200 17va power pack thinking this would be all I need for my basic layout. Well, after laying a track plan and realizing I may need to walk around the layout to do some switching and siding work I started looking into a walkaround throttle. I found the CREST wireless setup and really like the sound of this as it seems like an easy install? Is this system an easy setup? What will I need besides what comes with the 2 piece set. I read somewhere I need a power source and that the unit installs between a power source and my track? Can I use the MRC power pack that I have as a power source? What about wiring the system? What hooks up to what? Meaning will I still be able to use the power packs AC terminals? I am not a wiring pro and tend to shy away from wiring so any help would be great. Anyone who owns this system pros and cons are much appreicated. Thanks