The ultimate basement

[tstage]

Perhaps this has been asked before in a variety of other posts. If so, forgive me. I'm somewhat new to the forum.

? Question ?
If you could construct your own basement (i.e. size, location of utiliites, furnace, and water heaters, etc.) for a new layout, how big and what shape would your basement be?

Ideas: Would it be perfectly square or rectangular? Would it be divided into two or more rooms? Accessiblitily?

The reason for asking. I went house hunting a few years ago with my wife. We looked at a ranch with a somewhat unusual 1st floor plan. The kitchen was the wrong shape so we weren't particularly interested in it.

The basement however, I wish I could have folded up and taken it with me. It went the full length of the house with only one support post right smack in the middle. Clean and dry with ample lighting. I'm guessing it was probably 24 X 48'. My mouth hit the floor. (The furnace and water heater were in the middle with the support post.)

Anyway, I've thought how much of a layout could I have had in that space. I'm not complaining. My 4 x 8 table is bringing me much enjoyment at the moment.

I'm curious to hear what some of you have to say.

Tom

[cmrproducts]

Tom

I was able to design my new basement 5 years ago. It was 25 x 75ft. I had the contractors add an extra row of blocks (13 rows) which gave me over 8 ft ceilings. There were no windows and no utilities. The water tank and furnace were upstairs.

There was an office/lounge (12x28) off this basement area where the water softener and stairs came down. So this left me with just the support columns and Bilco emergency exit doorway to deal with. The panelbox was set high on the one wall close to a corner.

Since then I have added a complete drop ceiling, 20 8ft 4 tube fluoresent lights, switched outlets along the walls and a layout.

The layout has, at this time about 2600ft of HO track and we run Digitrax Radio DCC.

Although the scenery is only about 10% done we have more fun operating every other Thursday night.

Bob H Clarion, PA

[orsonroy]

I lost a bid on a 10 year old ranch a few years ago while househunting. The basement was a basically empty 30x70 dream. The stairs came down the center, naturally creating two rooms. All the utilities were under the stairs, as was a half bath, and the washer/dryer/mud sink were upstairs! The basement was perfectly layout-ready (meaning it was just a concrete box!), with no posts.

Unfortunately, I didn't get that house. I actually ended up with a much nicer 100+ year old Craftsman foursquare which is much more suited to our lifestyles and tastes. Unfortunately, it only has a 32x32 basement divided into four rooms. I knocked down one wall to create my current 14x32 layout room.

To me, the "perfect basement" would be one which would allow me to have a 10-15 scale mile long mainline that would support TT/TO operations. It'd have a bathroom and crew lounge, as well as a decent workshop area (at least 10x10) and a dispatcher's office. Lighting, insulation, drywall and carpeting would give the entire space a comfortable, hospitable atmosphere. Oh, and a well-stocked mini fridge full of frosty barley pop would be mandatory!

[Big_Boy_4005]

I designed and built a home with 4450 square foot footprint. That many squaer feet upstairs for living, and a basement to match. The train room is almost 2000 square feet, but the area for the layout is only 38 x 46. The finished ceiling will be just over 8'. I have 3 support columns in the middle, but they are no bother. I also designed in a door to my garage / workshop which allows me to bring in materials for construstion.

[CBQ_Guy]

For me, the bigger the better with the stairs coming down away from the walls and minimal support columns. High ceilings would also be nice because I'd be tempted to build a mushroom style layout. I'd like it to be large enough to do a humongous walk around style of layout similar to Rick Rideout's L&N or Dave Barrow's Cat Mountain & Santa Fe, rather than a spaghetti bowl configuration because my area isn't large enough. I also want a very large area just to give some walking distance between towns.

My daughter just bought a new house and I told her I lust for her basement. It meets all the criteria listed above as it's something like 30 plus by 60 plus feet and has a 9 foot ceiling! The stairs come down in the middle of the area, there's only three posts, and the furnace and HW heater are also in the center area underneath the stairs. Man, could I build a great layout there!

[jjbmish]

A friend of mine built a house that had a basement that was approximately 32' Wide by 60' long. The best part was that he used floor trusses, so he had no poles in the basement, just open space. Now that's how I'd want my basement. Also, all the mechanicals were in a separate space.

John

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tstage

Perhaps this has been asked before in a variety of other posts. If so, forgive me. I'm somewhat new to the forum.

? Question ?
If you could construct your own basement (i.e. size, location of utiliites, furnace, and water heaters, etc.) for a new layout, how big and what shape would your basement be?

Ideas: Would it be perfectly square or rectangular? Would it be divided into two or more rooms? Accessiblitily?

The reason for asking. I went house hunting a few years ago with my wife. We looked at a ranch with a somewhat unusual 1st floor plan. The kitchen was the wrong shape so we weren't particularly interested in it.

The basement however, I wish I could have folded up and taken it with me. It went the full length of the house with only one support post right smack in the middle. Clean and dry with ample lighting. I'm guessing it was probably 24 X 48'. My mouth hit the floor. (The furnace and water heater were in the middle with the support post.)

Anyway, I've thought how much of a layout could I have had in that space. I'm not complaining. My 4 x 8 table is bringing me much enjoyment at the moment.

I'm curious to hear what some of you have to say.

Tom

WARNING: Long, rambling dissertation.

I don't know about designing a basement from scratch, but we recently acquired a clean and dry one that's 34' x 24' and is essentially one big room divided by a stairway (there's also an outside entrance that doesn't intrude into the space). There are 3 steel support posts that are easily worked around. I would consider it absolutely perfect for my purposes if only the builder had reoriented the boiler (we have baseboard hot water heat and the boiler supplies hot water as well) 90 degrees to the right (when facing the rear wall). This would have put the boiler under the stairway and given me about 3 more feet of clear width. As it is, there's only 9 feet between the rear wall and the boiler, making more than one peninsula somewhat problematic (downright impossible, actually). As it is, I'll have to compress the middle of the single peninsula to give at least 2 feet of clear area between the benchwork and the boiler. I don't like that, but it's not going to be that much of a bottleneck and shouldn't unduly interfere with the operators (or THE operator - see below). Fortunately, I would still have the full 34 feet of length.

I think a great deal of what constitutes the "ultimate" basement depends on what kind of railroad you want to build as well as your location. As much as I'd like to go for broke with a heavily trafficked mainline, I'm in rural Maine. The nearest model railroad club is an hour's drive from here. Getting a building/operating crew together on a regular basis could be a real pain in the derriere. Just from a purely practical point of view (including financial practicality), it appears to me that I'm going to have to go for a more relaxed operating pattern, one that conceivably could be run solo in a pinch or by 2 to 3 operators at most.

Being from the West Coast, my natural predilection would be to go for something like Tehachapi, Cajon or SP's climb out of San Luis Obispo to Santa Margarita (all of these in the 1950-53 time frame). However, I find that I've become attracted to smaller power and shorter trains. The idea, for instance, of having to have multiple GS-4's, cab-forwards and 2-10-2's (not to mention assorted smaller power) to do San Luis Obispo justice and the expense that entails is something I'd rather not deal with, especially since I sold off all but one of my SP brass engines a few years ago (when the idea of having a useable basement appeared to be a pipe dream). Oh well, no big loss. Brass is vastly overrated anyhow.

About a month ago, shortly after we acquired the basement, I did a mental exercise as to what it would take to model Maine Central's Mountain Division (specifically Barrett, NH, to Crawford Notch, NH) around 1949-1950. 10-12 steamers (the largest of which would be a USRA light Mike) plus a B&M E-7 for B&M's seasonal Mountaineer, a dozen or so passenger cars and about 100 or so freight cars would do it. That's considerably less equipment than an SP San Luis Obispo operation would require, given that SP's Coast Daylight typically operated with 15 to 16 cars during the same time period and its 4-8-4 would be doubleheaded with either a cab-forward or 2-10-2. Then there's the Lark, the Coast Starlight and the Coast Mail. And that's just the passenger trains. Yeah, I know I don't have to do a car for car representation. Even so, a decent sized model Daylight or Larkshould run about 9 or 10 cars to look right. 'Course, cutting out the night trains and only running day trains in a simulated 12 hour period would also help.

Ultimately, I think the size/shape of the basement is a secondary issue to the questions of how much can you afford, how much time can you devote and how many suck....er, uh, I mean fellow modelers you can convince to help you build and operate your dream layout? [bow] Then there's the fact that "large" doesn't necessarily imply complex or mean you have to run 20-30 trains during an operating session. As a ferinstance, Maine Central's Rockland branch ran 3 passenger trains and 3 freight trains a day in each direction (including a night cement train) in the late 40's / early 50's. That's 6 east and 6 westbound trains altogether. Not a bad operation for a branch in a state not known for its population density. And it wouldn't take a CTC machine, powered turnouts, and a cast of thousands to make it work.

I finally have a basement. My wife actually found the place and suggested it to me. Like a sap, I fell for it. Now I've got to put up or shut up. I thought she was being nice. Now I realize she's got a heretofore undiscovered sadistic streak. Be careful what you wish for. You might get it. That's when the REAL trouble will start. [:D]

Andre

[Anonymous]

The ideal basement for a train room isn't even a basement at all. LOL It would a seperate building unto itself (say 30' x 100'). Naturally, most of us can't afford to do that, nor can I at this point, so I'm just dreaming. Further, since I live in southern California and basements are unheard of here, even a basement would be a dream (and I envy you guys in other parts of the US and Canada, or anywhere where you have basements.) I suppose I could move outta state. .....naaah.

Enjoy the hobby (and your basements),
Greg

[brothaslide]

I'm from California - What's a basement?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa[V][V][V]sob sob sob[V][V][V]

We don't have no stinkin' basements in CA.

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide

I'm from California - What's a basement?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa[V][V][V]sob sob sob[V][V][V]

We don't have no stinkin' basements in CA.

For model railroaders, a basement is something like a boat. A boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money. The only difference is that (for a model railroader) the hole is in the ground. The general effect is identical

Does that answer your question?

Andre

[FThunder11]

Prefectly square with nothing but strairs coming out of the middle and a layout that went around the outside, there would be a section in the middle to do work and store my trains

[Anonymous]

There doesn't seem to be many or any(?) basements here in Arizona either. I had one back east but not here. I ended up with a 10 x 20 seperate building. It's not bad except on 100 degree days. ( and that is even with air conditioning.)

[jfugate]

My friend Charlie Comstock (see the 2004 Model Railroad Planning for an article with his basement and track plan described) just built a new basement and put a house on top.

Charlie did several things to prepare the basement since it was built specifically to house a layout.

1. No utilities or stairs in the basement layout space at all.
2. Nearby operator's lounge, with bathroom and fridge.
3. No windows in the layout room.
4. No supports in the layout room.
5. Outlets in the ceiling every few feet to support layout lighting using drop chords (mimimal code issues that way, since the lights "plug in"). Also outlets around the room in the usual spot near the floor.
6. All outlets switchable via light switches at the door.
7. Walls painted sky blue, with extra matching blue paint left by the contractor.

Charlie coved the corners of the room from about 48" to the ceiling and painted it matching blue using the paint left by the contractor.

And now his room's all ready to go, and he's adding benchwork steadily.

[Anonymous]

Ultimate basement pipe dream of my own:

40'x80' rectangle. One place where the, water heater, furnace, and washer/dryer set are grouped together, not spread far apart.
Painted sheetrock walls, with a concrete floor that can be carpeted later on.
Big wide doors to make moving material in and out easier.
High ceilings with drop tiles in place. So as too keep dust down.
Flourescent lighting already in place.
One airplane bathroom in one corner.
Mini-fridge nearby.

Thats what I'd like at least.

Alvie.

[grayfox1119]

For years,I planned to use part of my lower level 48x28 split level ranch. Over the years, the little woman had me build bedrooms for the kids on the lower level as well as a family room. They are classified as "untouchable" now. But "alas!!!" there was an answer looming on the horizon, the wife and I wanted to add a room off the house for a large, windowed, family room ( big family now with grandkids ). So I cleverly told her that we might as well do a full excavation because we had to go down beyond the frost line anyways, and that is 4 feet in New England, so why not go the distance for a full basement? I now have a 28x28 space thats MINE !!!!!!

***

[Junctionfan]

Here is an interesting idea. You build in the basement and build in the attic and connect both layouts with a very high helix. This way if there is a flood you move all traffic to the attic but if their is a tornado than you move all traffic to the basement.

Interesting indeed?[(-D]

[robengland]

Man you Yanks have big houses [:0]

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by robengland

Man you Yanks have big houses [:0]

Oh, I don't know about that. 1600 sq feet isn't all that big.

HOWEVER, the lawn's a killer. It takes me almost 2 hours to mow it.

On a ride around lawn mower.

OTOH, we do get the occasional odd skunk, raccoon, turkey, etc., that takes a proprietary interest in the yard.

Haven't had a moose walk by yet, however.

Andre

[grayfox1119]

Andre.....GET A GOAT, or some SHEEP. But on 2nd thought, then you would have to worry about Coyotes and Wolves. We use Lamas down here in central Mass hills to guard the sheep, they chase the Coyotes away....wolves? That's another story!!

***

[Anonymous]

I just got my first basement after having moved away from the nest in the mid '60s. A long wait and I'm going to do justice to this one. Since my woodworking business is in my home - more specifically in the 2000 sq ft basement, I have had to carve out a suitable space for the shop and the layout, plus a work room / spare bedroom w/ plenty of built-in storage. Since I'm not contemplating ever selling this house - I'm making some long-term improvements that will mean that it will be awhile before any track gets laid. In the long run, the wait will be worth it. Although the basement is completely dry - even during torrential rain storms, I have ensured that all the drainage around the home is correctly done, and that all gutters are functioning correctly and diverting roof water away from the foundation. Plumbing within the basement ceiling and on any walls has been double checked for leaks or sweating pipes. Insulated HVAC ducts are used and located within the floor joists and not perpendicular to them. Flush ceiling outlets will be installed, w/ individual dampers in each run to balance the air flow. A whole house surround system is being expanded to include the basement, and both CATV and phone lines are being installed.

I am framing a dedicated 24 X 32 foot railroad room, w/ an additional 7 X 8 foot space at one end, w/ an acoustical tile drop ceiling w/ flush mounted lighting, drywalled & insulated walls all around including exterior walls, and will eventually have a wooden subfloor w/ vinyl on top of it for cleanliness and 'easy to stand' on for long periods of time. The walls are 2X4s on 16" centers w/ built in blocking to support cantilevred supports to minimize table/bench work legs. All the wiring will be in the wall w/ numerous elec outlets, and will be on a separate circuit than the lighting, for it's difficult to work on the wiring in the dark. I may install a sub-panel for both the shop and the layout room, although the 200 amp panel is probably adequate, as is. The layout will be DCC from the start, and will be able to be operated by one individual if desired. (it will just be a slow day on the railroad when that happens) The HO track plan will depict a shortline / branch w/ relatively short trains, light motive power, 2+% grades, tight curves in spots slowing down the train's progress, very few tunnels, staging - one hidden/one operated as an interchange/classification yard, single tracked main, and basically point to point - wye at one end/turntable at the other. No mushroom/two level trackplan - I want to fini***his layout and not be plagued w/ a maintainence nightmare.

There are several support columns running down the center spine of the house, but they will be concealed in a scenic divide that will go up to the ceiling, and I don't think that they will compromise my somewhat mountainous terrain layout, and if anything are in a logical place on my walk around track plan.

The basement is 32 X 65 approx., has the utilities - electrical panel, two HVAC systems, and hot water heater, in a compact area near the staircase which is against a far wall in the corner. The ceiling is 9 feet high, and completely free of obstructions in the layout room, since I have moved wiring up between and thru the floor joists. There aren't any windows in the layout room, and only one door, which will open out, and not into the room. Any cracks or expansion seams along the perimeter of the floor at the wall juncture have been filled w/ a flexible construction adhesive to prevent any radon intrusion, which is often not even considered by most basement dwellers. Any openings in the walls have been filled w/ an ample amount of foam sealant. All basement windows and doors have been caulked and weatherstripped. A moisture barrier hasd been installed between the 2X4s and the drywall. With all these improvements, the temp in the basement doesn't exceed 77 degrees when it's 95 degrees outside, and that is with the AC turned off. in the winter, the coolest it got was 64degrees without any heat turned on. (I've already rationalized to the wife that saves enough annually to pay for several new engines)

There is a separate HVAC system for the basement, as well as a dehumidifier for the humid summers here, and a whole-house humidifier for the winters, plus there is a complete security system installed on both levels. I am installing an air-filtration system, as well as a centalized shop vacuum system that gathers dust from all the woodworking tools in my shop down to sub 2 microns.

The woodworking shop area is sealed off from the layout room, to minimize any dust or debris from getting in there. Sprinklers are installed in the shop and the spare bedroom/workshop where kit building, etc. will be done. I am installing an explosion- proof spray booth in the workroom w/ a direct vent to the outside, and not near any upstairs windows. There's also a garage / boat door in the basement, which makes it a lot easier to bring large building materials into the basement, rather than down steep stairs and around corners. There is a separate exterior exit/entry for emergency egress. There is also a separate metal working area to keep wood chips separate from metal filings, and so on. Access to both the metal working and wood working areas are as far as possible from the model railroad room. Although not the ultimate basement, it has every feature I need for the way we intend to use it. The only thing lacking is a toilet, although we do live in the woods on the side of a hill. . .
BILL

[tstage]

Bill,

No toilet?!? How did you build a huge facility like that and not put in a toilet?!? My meager (in comparison) 24 x 20' finished/unfinished basement at least has a toilet. It's part of the laundry room and not very private...but it's a toilet. You're more of a man than I.

Tom

[Anonymous]

When you're on septic, and the septic line is 7 feet from the floor, you have to put in a toilet that 'em, 'umph, how can I say this and not be too descriptive - well it has to chew up the doo doo (that how you spell it?) and then pump it up and away. . .

My wife suggested that I get a porta-potty like they use in RVs. My neighbors would probably appreciate me coming up with a better solution, especially when the leaves fall from the trees, and I lose my cover.

I'll come up w/ a long term solution eventually. I do have a source of water right by the garage door outside for a slop sink. In the interim, I'll just have to either go upstairs, or if I misjudge the moment, just run outside and hide behind a tree.
BILL

[bn7026]

Well - we have no basements over here in Perth, Western Australia.

But - i'll be Building a new house shortly and I've been granted a space of about 6m x 5m (about 20' x 16') to build my trains - and it's inside the house - a lot of folks over here have to resort to building in a shed. To me that's more than enough.

Tim

[darth9x9]

Last year we (me and my now wife and then fiancee) finished building our dream house. She knew from the time we met, that my hobby would fill the entire eventual basement. So we designed a house that was not like every one elses and that was condusive to a model railroad empire. I had a mechanical room put off from the kitchen to house the water heater, pressure tank, and electrical panels. The HVAC systems are located in the second floor areas with easy access so they can be replaced when they fail. We had all the trusses designed so there are no poles in the basement. The stairs come down in the middle near one end of the house and at the last minute, I decided to sacrafice some acreage for a 1/2 bath that has a utility sink and a toilet for my railraoding buddies. I knew I would also have to plan for a crew lounge so I decided to 'kick it up a notch' and include a wood-burning fireplace so that the lounge area will some atmosphere while relaxing. There are no windows in the basement as they would have to be boarded up anyway for the railroad. The overall footprint is 3000 sq ft. But we have two additions planned that will take it over 5000 sq ft. The bonus room is on the second floor and that is where my workshop is located. I have 14' of counterspace to work on stuff. The house is a bent rectangle with three bay windows that carry all the way down through the foundations - this should provide some interesting solutions for utilizing this space. Here is a link to some pics:
http://www.bkcarl.com/ourhouse/slab.htm
Enjoy!

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bill mathewson

When you're on septic, and the septic line is 7 feet from the floor, you have to put in a toilet that 'em, 'umph, how can I say this and not be too descriptive - well it has to chew up the doo doo (that how you spell it?) and then pump it up and away. . .

My wife suggested that I get a porta-potty like they use in RVs. My neighbors would probably appreciate me coming up with a better solution, especially when the leaves fall from the trees, and I lose my cover.

I'll come up w/ a long term solution eventually. I do have a source of water right by the garage door outside for a slop sink. In the interim, I'll just have to either go upstairs, or if I misjudge the moment, just run outside and hide behind a tree.
BILL

Well, if cost isn't an issue...

http://incinolet.com/

[Anonymous]

So, even if you had a 30 x 70 basement to build this huge empire,Could you build it? And if you could actually get it built,what about maintaining it??How many hours do you spose it takes to maintain a 2000+ s/f layout??

Also, My small layout is N scale and based on its size i have near 250.00 per s/f into it and its not near finished.You could be talking 150-200,000.00 to complete a model rr that size.Now if you think about it,anyone who's married is going to have to add at least 50% to that figure in matching gifts for the wife to keep from getting either shot or committed in which case she'll sell all your stuff and cancell your subscriptions.
Perhaps a spare bedrooms still not a bad idea.It may save alot of money not to mention potential grief :)

[Anonymous]

Paul -

Got a chuckle out of your link to the porta potty company. At $1600 + a pop for one, I could also purchase just about my entire diesel roster from Trainworld, or even get a bladder operation if need be !

Seriously, I will find a long term solution, as I spend about twelve hours a day in the basement when workin' on my woodworking, and on the railroad. In the meantime, the leaves are my cover, and I'll get more exercise up and down the stairs this winter - unless we get a freak snowstorm with some decent size drifts !

Anybody else dealing with the issue of installing a toilet in a basement when your house is on septic, or your main drain line is close to the ceiling of your basement? I hate to post a separate topic thread entitled "How do you pee in your basement?" or something akin to that. . .

BILL

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bill mathewson

Paul -

Got a chuckle out of your link to the porta potty company. At $1600 + a pop for one, I could also purchase just about my entire diesel roster from Trainworld, or even get a bladder operation if need be !

Seriously, I will find a long term solution, as I spend about twelve hours a day in the basement when workin' on my woodworking, and on the railroad. In the meantime, the leaves are my cover, and I'll get more exercise up and down the stairs this winter - unless we get a freak snowstorm with some decent size drifts !

Anybody else dealing with the issue of installing a toilet in a basement when your house is on septic, or your main drain line is close to the ceiling of your basement? I hate to post a separate topic thread entitled "How do you pee in your basement?" or something akin to that. . .

BILL

You mean your basement doesn't have a drain in the center of it? [:D]

Nonetheless, I know what you mean. The drain lines here in Maine have to be at least 4 feet below ground level to prevent freezup. Even still, the line to my septic system is above navel level.

They can walk upstairs.

Andre

[Anonymous]

No drain in the center !? Remember this is the South, and many building codes are much more lenient here than up North. We didn't build this house, and only moved in this past winter. So far so well, and the slope of the land around the house was well done, and I don't anticipate any problems with water intrusion.

My parents had a basement in a house they had built in upstate NY in the mid '50s, and it had a drain it that still couldn't keep up with the all-of-sudden snow melt in the Spring which would cause water to literally cascade down the hill behind our house and fill up the basement's casement window-wells to the point that water would come thru them and down the wall and flood the basement. It took two winters of that nonsense for us before they decided to regrade the backyard, and literally use explosives to blast out rock in order for us to recontour the entire hill behind us. Then we installed French drains around the perimeter of the house and created a drainage run out to the street. Never had those problems again.

Many basements today are designed with a low spot near a doorway in lieu of a drain, or a drain located in a far corner, rather in the center. Crawl space openings must have a built in gravel filled drainage "pit" in a corner, typically located near an access area - due to that being the point closest to the ground level outside the crawl space.

BILL

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bill mathewson

No drain in the center !? Remember this is the South, and many building codes are much more lenient here than up North. We didn't build this house, and only moved in this past winter. So far so well, and the slope of the land around the house was well done, and I don't anticipate any problems with water intrusion.

.........

I was being facetious, figuring you could use the drain in a pinch. Not having that, I can understand why you'd have to high-tail it cross-legged for the woods.

We didn't build our house either. Just moved in and there it was, a drain surrounded by a basement. Now I can pee without either going upstairs or outside. [(-D]

I have no intention of trying to install a toilet in the basement. Some of this stuff is overkill. I'm going to be building a model railroad in the basement, not a bowling alley.

Andre