I have the same engine and 48 inch radius....I'm not suggesting you rebuild your layout, but rather you on the right track with sticky tape....try topcon....I believe that's the spelling....it's a see through yellow tape or liquid tape.....the former from electronics supply house and is included with some NCE decoders the latter from any hardware store....try Dcc yahoo forums for step by step help....Joe
All this goes to where you are in your skill set aquistion, experience, desires, and which is more precious time or money. Also how brave are you.
Buying any older brass engine is a roll of the dice. Converting to DCC is doable for virtually all brass locos, regardless of age providing you are moderately capable with your hands and have a few tools needed and are skilled at using them. Adding sound can throw some additional issues in front of the task, but it is doable.
I am about to do my first brass to Tsunami controller and sound conversion and have asked some questions myself in another, current post in the DCC forum. While I have converted a number of engines to DCC and sound, this smaller engine will pose a special issue in that I will have to bore several holes in the brass model and do a few more hoop jumps than normal. I accept this challenge. This engine is currently not to be found on the market with DCC and sound. This is the only reason I am fighting this battle.
With a post earlier, I note that an air bubble under a decal was one of a number of deal breakers for purchase. Obviously, there was no desire or plan to repaint. Many brass engines painted by one or more previous owners are rather poorly painted and a complete stripping is often required. It sounds like some wouldbe brass buyers are looking for a near perfect paint/decaling job and hopefully a prelighted engine. (Few brass engines were ever lighted or even prep'd for lighting, as purchased.)
I am amazed at how the current market of flawless R-T-R DCC plastic and even die cast locos sold with sound systems have crushed the brass market prices of older brass models. There are some real deals to be had if you have a ton of skills and time. This is especially true of fine, yet old DC brass locos that have been user painted and remain un-lighted. By painting any brass engine, its stuffy old natural brass collectable value is gone. Also, for half of its old value you can get the same loco in cast pot metal flawlessly painted and decaled with much better detail, DCC and sound!
About the only advantage to buying old brass today, beyond stodgy unpainted collector value, is that you may want a rare engine of a specific type that the Chinese have not got to yet. Brass manufacturers have about a 50 year head start on this and a lot of specialized engines were made once they had all built their requisite hudsons, niagaras, yellowstones, Y6's and bigboys back in the 50's and early 60's.
My general advice is that if you desire a common loco type, then purchase it in plastic or pot metal, fully decorated, decaled and loaded with DCC and sound. If only found in brass or if you find a super good deal in brass, figure on a lot of work to bring it up to a standard rivaling the best current models.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
CAZEPHYR I have several of the early Samhongsa models and they all use a can motor. One of the leads of the motor will be attached to the frame, but the motor is isolated when you remove that tie to the frame. This is the common way all brass is made after the open frame motors were replaced. The real problem I have using brass models for DCC is the fact the drivers only on the right hand side pick up power on the locomotive and the tender axles on the left hand rail. DCC in general needs to have constant contact for the power and that is done in the newer hybrid brass and die cast models by using wipers on the left hand side of the locomotive and right hand side of the tender. Without multiple axles in contact with the rails, DCC will reset often and can spoil the operation. It certainly can be done, but requires a bit of work to operate satisfactory. I know a few people who do install DCC without the wipers and it works OK if the track and locomotive are perfectly clean, but can be a problem on smaller locomotives since the weight and number of drivers are a factor in voltage pickup. CZ
I have several of the early Samhongsa models and they all use a can motor. One of the leads of the motor will be attached to the frame, but the motor is isolated when you remove that tie to the frame. This is the common way all brass is made after the open frame motors were replaced. The real problem I have using brass models for DCC is the fact the drivers only on the right hand side pick up power on the locomotive and the tender axles on the left hand rail.
DCC in general needs to have constant contact for the power and that is done in the newer hybrid brass and die cast models by using wipers on the left hand side of the locomotive and right hand side of the tender. Without multiple axles in contact with the rails, DCC will reset often and can spoil the operation. It certainly can be done, but requires a bit of work to operate satisfactory. I know a few people who do install DCC without the wipers and it works OK if the track and locomotive are perfectly clean, but can be a problem on smaller locomotives since the weight and number of drivers are a factor in voltage pickup.
CZ
While the brass loco shown below is not DCC-equipped and has an open-frame motor, I changed it to all-wheel pick-up fairly easily. The pictures and captions explain the procedure.
Copper circuit board was cut to size, then shaped using a cut-off disc in my Dremel. I pre-tinned the spots where the pick-up wipers and jumper wires were to be installed, then attached the board to the loco's bottom cover plate using both contact cement and Kadee plastic 2-56 screws. The cover plate, obviously, needs to be removed for the drilling and tapping operation.
The wheel wipers were cut from Kadee bronze centring springs, using an X-Acto knife, then re-shaped to suit the installation for each particular wheel. Each was pre-tinned, and damp tissue was placed over all previously-made solder joints while the wipers were solder in place. (The plastic screws were removed while the soldering was done.)
On the tender, the trucks were rotated to place the insulated wheels on the same side as those on the loco, then a small square of copper-clad circuit board was affixed to the truck bolsters, next to the insulated wheels, using contact cement. You could add a plastic screw if you wished. Wipers were then soldered to the board, along with a flexible wire which was routed through the tender's floor.
The front truck was done in the same manner:
While I don't have photos of the wiring inside the tender, I added mini-plugs to allow disassembly, then routed the wires to a small square of circuit board material (visible at lower right in the photo above) contact-cemented to the bottom of the tender floor. Also soldered to this board is the female end of a mini-connector, its insulated open end facing towards the loco.Also visible in the photo above, at top right, is a small square of brass, soldered to the tender's floor. Another female end of a mini connector is soldered to that.
Here's a view of the male connectors and their wires leading to the loco:
The wires from the tender wipers connect to the same motor brush as those from the loco wipers, while the other connects to the other brush. The drawbar, still insulated at the end connected to the loco, is also connected to the same brush. (The insulation isn't needed, but it was easier to leave it in place.)
While the loco weighs 15.25oz. and is almost perfectly balanced at the mid-point of its driver wheelbase, the tender was a little on the light side. I added a couple of blocks of lead to bring its weight up to 9.75oz, ensuring good tracking and current pick-up.A test run showed her capable of handling 20 fairly free-rolling cars (67 ounces) up a 2.5% grade laid-out an an S-bend.
Wayne
0011jmha - Welcome to trains.com!
I've edited your post so that the video displays within the topic. To do this you just click on the icon and paste the URL of the video in there
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
I'm quite into reading what others have to say here, because out of necessity, pretty much my entire 6, 8, and 10 coupled steam fleet are 70's and older Samhongsa brass.
I have done work on all of them, and it's always a battle keeping them running. Two Hudson's,, a Northern, and two Selkirks, and they all have dcc.
Just isolate the motors, have decent drivers, and keep them on broad curves, and you'll be fine.
Van Hobbies H1b, K1a, T1c, D10g, F1a, F2a, G5a. Division Point: H24-66 Hammerhead, Alco covered wagons A-B-B-A, C-Liner A-B-B-A, EMD FP7A A-B-B.
H1b modified to replicate modern day 2816. All with Tsunamis.
Thanks for directing me to that shop, I've looked at the PFMs and I must say the detail on the Key was incomparably better than that on the PFM / Tenshodo models. Sharp... light years ahead... looked more like the 2,000 + dollar stuff built today if you ask me. Well, it's still on ebay, if you want to see for yourself? Item 170764888853 - curious what you'd think of it.
Wow, $900 for it? I've got about 6 Key Samhongsa steamers (4 Rio Grande 4-8-4's, 2 Rio Grande 3-cylinder 4-8-2's) and about the most I ever paid for any of them was around $500. Of course, prices vary for different prototypes, and the Niagara could have been a much more limited run. And the seller could be right about the factory paint job--I've seen some models whose factory paint leaves a little to be desired. The size of the NYC lettering could have been because that was the only size decals at the time of production.
I got curious and found 3 S-series Niagaras available at Caboose Hobbies in Denver, and they're running about $400 average. But they're older Japanese PFM models built by Tenshodo. They wouldn't be as detailed as the Key model, probably, but I've got some Tenshodo models and they're built like Sherman Tanks, LOL! Very sturdy and pretty good running. And they do take smaller radii a little better than some of the more detailed Korean imports.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
So I had a last close, long, hard look at the pictures... long story short: I wont buy this particular offering. The road number decals on the cab have air bubbles underneath, and the road name on the tender looks to be a scale foot or two too high up the side. So for a model that needs new decals I would think 900 dollars way too much. For that price I'd want it to be flawless.
Or, maybe a flawless copy of this model would usually fetch 1,500 and now this one is going "cheap" (LOL) because of the decals? I'm not a brass expert, so much is certain. But I sure am glad I spotted the decal issues. (Seller countered that paint and decals are a factory job, and it may very well be for all I know - the paint job does look superb)
Anyway. Thanks for the great information, if and when I do finally find that ultimate Niagara, I'll let you know.
Sounds reassuring. Thanks! Now I've got to get that baby over...
FreightTrainBlues Again, seller says it runs beautifully, no concerns there. No word on current draw. The bottleneck seems to be minimum radius. Someone else said I should count on 36"... Way out of range, I'm just finishing the layout benchwork: 29 1/2" minimum. As those brass 4-8-4's are all a bit different I hope someone with first hand knowledge of the Key / Samhongsa Niagara - or something pretty darn similar - passes by and gives his 2 cents on the minimum radius.
Again, seller says it runs beautifully, no concerns there. No word on current draw.
The bottleneck seems to be minimum radius. Someone else said I should count on 36"... Way out of range, I'm just finishing the layout benchwork: 29 1/2" minimum.
As those brass 4-8-4's are all a bit different I hope someone with first hand knowledge of the Key / Samhongsa Niagara - or something pretty darn similar - passes by and gives his 2 cents on the minimum radius.
As Tom has stated, the GS4 has 80" drivers and they can run around 28" radius curves. I have some of those also and the Balboa GS4's (KTM) have a floating type rear trailing truck that connected by a screw that drops down in the middle of the trailing truck. This allows the trailing truck to track better without interference with the drivers. The Westside GS4's, built by the same builder, KTM uses a connection to the frame of the drivers and that makes the model tighter in the same curve. I have several Key Models that are 4-8-4's and they all use the rear truck connected by a screw to the main driver chassis. This does make them tighter in curves and the NYC 4-8-4 probably has the same configuration. The Key models do have nice side play in the drivers which allows for tight curves. "Good Luck"
FreightTrainBlues:
I don't want to confuse the issue, but I have several brass Southern Pacific GS-4's, that I think are fairly close to the Niagara's dimensions as far as wheelbase length and driver diameter (GS-4 is 80", Niagara is 79"), and they will take a 28" radius without any problems (except cab overhang). And since you say your MINIMUM radius is 29-1/2", I have a feeling that you'll be okay. An inch and a half in HO scale can make all the difference in the world with a long-wheelbased non-articulated locomotive.
If you do have any problems with the trailing truck shorting out against the frame, a little dab of Epoxy on the bottom of the frame where the truck touches it will cure the shorting problem very well.
Hope this helps. Let us know when you get the locomotive, okay?
Rik.
Before you do anything you must get some amperage readings. I have a Sunset 2-10-0 with a 16 wheel tender that came with a Can motor. It still drew more than 1 amp at slow speed. I swapped out the can motor for a Cannon flat can and it brought it down to under 1/4 amp stalled. Most of the Brass steamers I have run across the motor is easily isolated. One wire would be soldered to the insulated draw bar and the other to the motor mount or frame. If there are plenty of wheels on the loco and tender then you should not have to worry about more pickups. My little Overland 0-6-0 with 8 wheel tender has no problem with stalling on good track and has a long enough wheel base to make it through every frog it has seen.
Depending on the maker you may find some diodes and resisters on the motor if the headlight is installed. Cut them off and wire the light to the decoder. Some better Brass steamers will have a cam on one of the axles. If you are doing a sound decoder then utilizing that cam will be a big plus in making your installation easier. Programming the chuff without a cam can be very time consuming.
Use micro connectors between loco and tender. This will allow them to be separated without too much hassle. Also do not bundle the wires together. Running them in pairs to 4 wires will allow easier articulation.
Take your time and make sure it runs good before doing anything will make the instal better.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Sounds as if you don't have the loco in your hands yet. As others have pointed out, I would run it on straight DC and asses its running characteristics before at temping a decoder install. You may have a host of things to do depending on your particular model's condition.
I have converted eight brass locos of various sizes to DCC, mostly sound installs. Some required none or minor adjustments to get them running well before DCC installation, others required more work to get them ready. I have some brass that is still in boxes waiting to be re-geared or other major overhauls.
I have found that pick-up issues are more problematic in smaller locos. Clean track and powered frogs help this quite a bit. I have also experimented with large stay alive caps for the Tsunamis, which do seem to help smooth out operation.
When I buy brass, I presume that I will have to work on it and I plan the price I will pay with that in mind. I also check out whether there is a working front coupler installed, lights that work and whether the loco is painted. All of these items add time or expense to the loco if you have to do them yourself.
An Example: A good example of how this applies is a recent purchase of a Sunset SP Consolidation with a Whaleback tender. (TWhite and other SP fans will appreciate this one). The loco came with a can motor installed, backhead detail and the front coupler pocket was designed to take a Kadee as a drop in. The biggest bonus is that the running gear and wheels are painted. This means that to paint the rest of the loco will not require me to pull apart the drive rods etc...sweet!!
The loco was listed as runs great. Well it did, except that the drive rods would freeze up every once in a while. This was traced to a valve slide guide that was loose in the cylinder head. After fixing the guide it still hitched up and the problem was then traced to a loose rod screw. When I tightened up the screw, it broke off of the rod. This necessitated drilling out the screw hole and soldering a pin in its place. It now runs fine, no hitches.
DCC Mods: I drilled some holes in the tender, unsoldered the motor from the frame and ran some wires. The tender needs a few holes drilled in it for sound and the headlights need to be drilled for wiring before it goes to the paint booth.
The above is typical of my experience with brass. This one was pretty easy. I expect to do these types of repairs/modifications when I buy brass.and I consider this loco to be a good deal for the price I paid. The seller wasn't being dishonest is his evaluation of the running characteristics as the loco probably ran fine for him on his test track and the guide could have come loose in shipping.
For comparison, I could go out and buy Athearn's beautiful MT 4 with sound, paint, front coupler, great detail that runs perfect out of the box, for less than I will have in this loco (not counting my time).
Why brass? Because it is the only way to get this particular loco....
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Thanks for the great replies. The minimum radius of the layout I'm building right now is a tad under 30"... before having it shipping across the Atlantic (i live in Holland) I'd better make sure this is sufficient.
FreightTrainBlues Hi all, Here's a question for any brass / DCC pundits on this forum... I wonder how easily a 1980's Samhongsa / Key NYC Niagara can be converted to DCC. Is the frame is electrically insulated? (would help with pick-up of both rails on both engine and tender, plus no short circuits in curves.) Also, what would its minimum radius be? Finally, any other known issues with this model? I'm not afraid to do a little bit of soldering to get the decoder in. Pictures of the locomotive make me drool but the price is eye-watering too... so it had better be _perfect_ in all respects, including DCC-readiness. Many thanks in advance! Rik
Hi all, Here's a question for any brass / DCC pundits on this forum... I wonder how easily a 1980's Samhongsa / Key NYC Niagara can be converted to DCC. Is the frame is electrically insulated? (would help with pick-up of both rails on both engine and tender, plus no short circuits in curves.) Also, what would its minimum radius be? Finally, any other known issues with this model?
I'm not afraid to do a little bit of soldering to get the decoder in. Pictures of the locomotive make me drool but the price is eye-watering too... so it had better be _perfect_ in all respects, including DCC-readiness.
Many thanks in advance!
Rik
cacole Most brass locomotives had the motor screwed directly to the frame, so you'll have to figure out a way to insulate the two from each other before installing a decoder. More importantly, how well does the model run? A poor running locomotive will not be improved by installing a decoder. Quite the contrary, it might run even worse with DCC due to poor electrical pickups.
Most brass locomotives had the motor screwed directly to the frame, so you'll have to figure out a way to insulate the two from each other before installing a decoder.
More importantly, how well does the model run? A poor running locomotive will not be improved by installing a decoder. Quite the contrary, it might run even worse with DCC due to poor electrical pickups.
The motor FRAME does not have to be isolated. Both brushes have to be isolated. With a Pittman-style motor, this just means isolating the one brush that is connected to the motor frame, which may involve nothing more than breaking a solder joint or slipping a piece of insulation on the uninsulated leg of the wishbone brush spring.
I agree that it isn't worthwhile trying to `improve' a poor DC runner by installing a decoder. Take the time to clean the commutator and fine-tune the drive (including proper lubrication.) If, after a proper cleaning and lube job, the loco is still not up to standard, you might consider re-motoring.
While I don't have the specific loco cited, I DO have a stable of Japanese-prototype brass steamers. Converting any of them to DCC would be dead simple - and I wouldn't have to isolate a single motor frame. (DCC on my layout? Nebbah hoppen!!!)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL)
Brass steamers are generally built to tighter 'tolerances' than plastic steamers, so minimum radii can be quite a bit different. While a plastic 4-8-4 can often negotiate a 24" radius with ease, a brass 4-8-4 usually needs at least a 28" radius in order to run without any shorting problems--rear truck touching the frame, front truck derailing under the cylinders. Plastic steamers are built so that the drivers have more sideplay going through curves, brass steamers have much less. Especially large non-articulated brass steamers.
Most of my steamers are brass imports, solely because the railroads I model (Rio Grande, Southern Pacific) have very few models available in plastic. My 4 Rio Grande 4-8-4's pretty much require a 30" radius to operate flawlessly (luckily, my minimum radius is 34") , as do my 4-8-2 and 2-10-2 locos. In fact, I have a number of brass articulateds that can usually negotiate a tighter radius than my large brass non-articulateds.
I have quite a few Key imports--I like them, they run well, and with some 'balancing' as far as weight, they can be made into very decent haulers. I run strictly DC, so can't help you on converting, though I've heard that brass converts well to DCC IF the locomotives run well in DC to begin with. And most Key locos have a motor mounting that is very easy to isolate from the frame by re-mounting the motor using ordinary bathroom shower caulk. Though I don't have the Niagara you're discussing, I believe it's about the same general size as one of my Rio Grande 4-8-4's, and that loco DEFINITELY requires a 28" minimum radius in order not to short out the trailing truck under the frame. It's due to the tighter, more prototypical tolerances of brass steamers.
Hope this helps a little.
It is supposed to run really smoothly, no concerns there. The reason I'm worried is because my Nickel Plate Products 4-8-4 Pcono, while running nicely on DCC, does have problems shorting when the rear wheel in the trailing truck touches the frame. I put sticky tape on the offending spot which helps for the time being.
I would hope an engine 4x as expensive would not need sticky tape!
FreightTrainBlues Is the frame is electrically insulated? (would help with pick-up of both rails on both engine and tender, plus no short circuits in curves.)
Is the frame is electrically insulated? (would help with pick-up of both rails on both engine and tender, plus no short circuits in curves.)
I don't have this particular model, but I've had a fair amount of brass steam locos. In all of them, the ENTIRE locomotive is hot from the right rail (except for the tires of all the wheels on the left side). And the ENTIRE tender is hot from the left rail (same for the tires). I might have the left/right switched there. So pickup via the insulated tires is rare. My 0-8-0T has that, but then there's no tender for pickup. I also have an 0-6-0 where, I believe, the manufacturer planned on all wheel pickup for engine and tender; but I don't have it handy to check to see if that actually happened. With a little guy like that and slow switching speeds, the extra pickup would be nice.
Actually, the motor itself doesn't have to be insulated from the frame. But both brushes DO. Frequently, one of the brushes is bonded to the motor frame for convenience. If that's the case, you may be able to undo the bond and wire up that brush similarly to the other brush and leave the motor frame hot to the loco side.
BUT, your loco might be different. While all wheel pickup is a most excellent thing, I haven't had terrible pickup problems with the larger brass locos as long as wheels and track were reasonably clean. As to min radius and the rest--don't know.
Ed