BRAKIE Back in the train most passenger consist was taken apart. Mail cars went to the USPS building,REA Express cars to the REA building,coaches to the clean out track,Pullmans to the Pullman tracks along with the Sleepers.Dinners and Sleepers to be clean,sterilized and given a health inspection(this was to insure all was cleaned) the dinner was taken to commissary building for restocking..About three hours before train time the train would be built and taken to the station.A carman would connect all steam and signal lines.Pullman porters would board and inspect their cars to insure everything they needed was stocked-blankets,sheets,extra pillows shoe polish(passengers would set their shoes outside their compartment if they wanted them polish).60 mintues before train time the passenger locomotive(s) would be coupled to the train and air pumped up and heat or A/C would be turned on in the passenger cars..Some trains had barbers. There was far more to handling passenger trains then just turning on a loop..
Back in the train most passenger consist was taken apart.
Mail cars went to the USPS building,REA Express cars to the REA building,coaches to the clean out track,Pullmans to the Pullman tracks along with the Sleepers.Dinners and Sleepers to be clean,sterilized and given a health inspection(this was to insure all was cleaned) the dinner was taken to commissary building for restocking..About three hours before train time the train would be built and taken to the station.A carman would connect all steam and signal lines.Pullman porters would board and inspect their cars to insure everything they needed was stocked-blankets,sheets,extra pillows shoe polish(passengers would set their shoes outside their compartment if they wanted them polish).60 mintues before train time the passenger locomotive(s) would be coupled to the train and air pumped up and heat or A/C would be turned on in the passenger cars..Some trains had barbers.
There was far more to handling passenger trains then just turning on a loop..
Yup. One could build a very nice railroad with only a nice passenger terminal and a staging yard to represent "out there".
On my previous layout "The King's Express" would arrive at Fornost, and be broken up as you described. By the time it reached Fornost it only had a pair of Alco PA1s on the point, a baggage car, three coaches, a diner and one sleeper. There were were yard tracks to receive these cars for the work that you described, and then, around 9:30 am (after the regional and commuter trains cleared the station) they would assemble "The King" for its southbound trip to Gondor.
It left around 11:30 to arrive at Bree at 12:50. The Northbound "King" would meet it there, as well as both the eastbound and westbound sections of the "North Star Express" (Blue Mountain to Lonely Mountain). Thus any point in Middle Earth could be connected to with these four trains at Bree.
After leaving Bree (at 1400) the "King" would travel on to Hollin where the PAs were pulled off, and two more sleepers were attached. A GG-1 locomotive would pull the train through the tunnels to Khazad Dum, and then under the wire all the way to Gondor, arriving sometime the next day perhaps around 1800.
It took three complete train sets to protect the schedules of the "King" but since I was only modeling the area between Bree and Fornost, that was irrelevant to my operations. I did have staging tracks and equipment for all 104 scheduled trains.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
MN unit in front headed for the Park Ave tunnel. I'm not sure what happened there. Perhaps the MN unit was waiting just outside the tunnels.
On the picture that you posted with the AMTK unit in the lead, I could not see the 125th Street station. There was probably an MN locomotive waiting for it at 125th Street.
LIONS never worry about "never" or "sometimes" or "could do." When LION says they had no presence at GCT he means that they had no ticket office, or other accouterments of passenger train operations there. If something went it that way, it would have used to loop to turn the train. They could hire MN cleaners and car-knockers to inspect the train, but there would be nobody there to restock the commissary.
Indeed, when I still lived in NYC in the 80s, LIRR used AMTK car-knockers at NYP since the host railroad is usually the one to provide these services in their stations. Now that LIRR has the West Side Yard, they probably take care of this sort of stuff out there.
So let me get this straight...
Since the opening of the Empire connection in 1991, Amtrak train NEVER had a presenece at GCT?
Have you looked at the photos or viewed the video links?
Yes or no?
I can recall at least two periods in which they did (albeit TEMPORARILY). GCT serves as an option if conditions prevent Amtrak from using the Empire connecting line between Penn and Spuyten Duyvil.
I will even go out on a limb and speculate that the Amtrak trains used the loop at GCT (or at least to turn the engines) for the Empire trains. These trains (although normally serviced at Sunnyside) could afford to temporarily be serviced at Albany when trains were running out of GCT during the closure of the Empire connecting line.
To acknowledge something else you posted, you are correct. The Amtrak and MN pick-ups are different and not compatible (I forgot about that). As shown in the videos I shared, MN likely lashes up one of its locomotives to the front of the train to ferry it in and out of GCT. I'm not sure where they cut it off although one of the photos I posted show the train with no MN unit in front headed for the Park Ave tunnel. I'm not sure what happened there. Perhaps the MN unit was waiting just outside the tunnels.
~Kyle
The Mary Lindsay Railroad - Featuring Amtrak Model Trains Your HO Rail Journey Starts Here.........
www.marylindsayrr.vze.com (Last Update: 5/31/12)
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I understand that the loop at GCT *is* used, but mostly for locomotives and mow work and work trains. Metro North (Meatball Norsk) is the only railroad there, and all of their trains are electric MU or Dual Mode push pulls. The Meatball does run some diesel only - three car shuttle trains but AFIK they never travel to GCT.
AMTK trains from Boston by pass GCT via the Hell Gate Bridge into NYP.
Sometimes you can see New Jersey Transit trains on Hell Gate Bridge running all the way to New Haven. They have a deal with Meatball Norsk to run trains to the football games at the Meadowlands.MN has no equipment that can go into NYP, NJT does have such equipment and it is even compatible with the wires in CT which have different power than the ones in Jerseyland.
First, the prototype:
Wye - former Santa Fe (now Grand Canyon Railway) has a wye at the Grand Canyon end. Don't know how the train is turned at Williams.
Loop (balloon) - there is a reversing loop around the lower-level platform tracks at Grand Central Terminal. Don't know if it is currently in use.
Then, the model.
At my (temporarily nameless) end-of-track module the one single-ended passenger car and some, "Unload from this side," freight cars and single-ended brake vans are turned on the turntable in the engine servicing area. Locomotives, however, are never turned. The TTT runs tank locos with excellent visibility both ways, and the Road Foreman of Engines figures that keeping water over the crown sheets on the 4% grades trumps running smokebox first.
In the bottom of a steep-sided valley, there's no room for even a minimum-radius loop or wye.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
ctclibbyAt times, I can see the need to turn equipment 180 to set them up for the reverse direction. I currenly am thinking wye to turn engines and/or cars if needed. I have never seen a prototype turn-table for passenger stuff, but it probably exists. Any thoughts?
For that matter Denver Union Station has two wyes on which Amtrak California Zephyr is turned twice a day.
By all means do but make sure you tell the story correctly.
The operative word is RARE. Not Regular
Yes; Amtrak does NOT have a regular presence at GCT.
Only under "extreme" "RARE" circumstances will Amtrak operate out of GCT and usually it's due to problems on the empire connecting line.
In case you still have your doubts about how, on occasion Amtrak will operate the way I describe here's additional media:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywO4LjPD2Lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4z5Sc2RWCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCADdjm4CV0
I'll re-itterate again, this is not a normal thing! But it has happened and could potentially happen again if something goes wrong on the Empire Line that requires the line to be shut down.
BTW, I'm from the area.
Well, Otto Vondrak was my source for my information, so let's ask him what that train is doing there.
AMTK does not have a presence at GCT.
Please note that in both instances, I said these occurrances are rare and only happen if there is an issue on the Empire connecting line (typically issues with the bridge whether it be maintenance or malfunction). I know EXACTLY where the LSL travels under NORMAL circumstances.
Just north of the Park Ave Tunnel
Well you should know where this is
I will give you this though. It's quite possible that MN ties on one of their locomotives to tow the Amtrak trains in and out of GCT.
ksax73 Grand Central TERMINAL: Metro-North DOES allow Amtrak trains to operate in and out of GCT although it is rare. Amtrak has AMD-103 (700 series) locomotives that are equipped with 3rd rail shoes. Their technical designation is P32AC-DM (DM stands for dual mode hence the 3rd rail shoes). None of Amtrak's units have the hatch on the hood however these locomotives ARE allowed to operate in and out of the terminal. This is a rare occurrence. This typically happens when there is work being performed on the movable bridge at Suyten Duyvil. All Empire Service trains with the exception of the Lake Shore Ltd. (uses the same route out of NYP) operate out of GCT when this happens. The Lake Shore is routed over the Hellgate Bridge via the NEC's Hellgate Connection to New Rochelle. The Locomotive on the lead end is cut off from the consist and the P32ACDM (which is hooked on the other end) then takes the train south toward NYC and uses the wye to access the Hudson Line at which point it can resume its normal route. This process adds considerable time to the schedule and I can't speak to the logistics behind this. I can only assume that being a long distance train, it needs to be serviced at Sunnyside Yard and it's much more efficient to load up at Penn Station than deadhead the train (in the process I just described) to GCT.
Grand Central TERMINAL: Metro-North DOES allow Amtrak trains to operate in and out of GCT although it is rare. Amtrak has AMD-103 (700 series) locomotives that are equipped with 3rd rail shoes. Their technical designation is P32AC-DM (DM stands for dual mode hence the 3rd rail shoes). None of Amtrak's units have the hatch on the hood however these locomotives ARE allowed to operate in and out of the terminal.
This is a rare occurrence. This typically happens when there is work being performed on the movable bridge at Suyten Duyvil. All Empire Service trains with the exception of the Lake Shore Ltd. (uses the same route out of NYP) operate out of GCT when this happens. The Lake Shore is routed over the Hellgate Bridge via the NEC's Hellgate Connection to New Rochelle. The Locomotive on the lead end is cut off from the consist and the P32ACDM (which is hooked on the other end) then takes the train south toward NYC and uses the wye to access the Hudson Line at which point it can resume its normal route. This process adds considerable time to the schedule and I can't speak to the logistics behind this. I can only assume that being a long distance train, it needs to be serviced at Sunnyside Yard and it's much more efficient to load up at Penn Station than deadhead the train (in the process I just described) to GCT.
The Amtrak locomotives that do have third rail shoes CANNOT run to grand central terminal. They have the subway/LIRR type over-running shoe. GCT uses the New York Central type under riding shoes. They are NOT compatible. Locomotives without a front hatch may NOT run in the lead position under Park Avenue. This information comes from a Metro-North engineer. Metro-North is the owner of these tracks, and MN crews would have to pilot any train in these tunnels as there are no AMTK engineers qualified for this track.
The Lake Sore Limited goes nowhere near Hell Gate Bridge. It crosses the East River on the swing bridge at Spuyten Duyvil, follows the old West Side line (with no third rails, but with adequate ventilation for diesel operation) right up to about 36th Street where there is third rail and the train simply drops the shoes onto the third rail, shuts off the prime mover, and enters NY Penn Station right there. Yes, All AMTK service is at the Sunnyside Yards. AMTK third rail shoes must be retracted when running on any Metro-North track.
Two clarifications I wanted to point out regarding the Lake Shore Ltd and Grand Central TERMINAL:
First the Lake Shore: The train may turn, it may not. It depends on the situation. I've been on the Lake Shore when we didn't back in at all and the engines pulled up to the bumper. I've seen other trains do the same thing. Sometimes they'll back in if the consist is being used for another train or if the arriving train is so late that that consist has to be turned as it's arriving to prepare for departure a few hours later (mind you, the train needs to be cleaned, re-stocked, etc.).
Additionally, the train makes its approach from the south. It turns west on the wye and then backs in. It does add time to the arrival.
When the B&M Flying Yankee train set was running between Boston and Bangor ME, there was no place to turn the train near the Bangor Union Station. The Yankee would turn on a wye at Northern Maine Junction, then back 5 or 6 miles into the stationhttp://www.flyingyankee.com/
EDIT: WHile I was looking at the Yankee Reatoration site, I found this video from a couple of years ago about the restoration, a bit off topic, but just FYIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwnca03W2lo
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
if the passenger station is on a wye like St Louis Union Station, the trains back in and head out so turning the consist is accomplished automatically.
we used to use the E St Louis engine house turntable to turn piggybacks the right way so the trailers all faced the ramp for loading and unloading. this was done if we only had a few "turned wrongs". if there were a bunch of them (or it was raining) we took them over to the TRRA wye at relay depot and then turned the yard engine on the turntable when we got back.
grizlump
The Empire Builder comes in head first, but then it is on that end track which runs through the station instead of ending at the bumpers.
[quote user="BroadwayLion"]
AMTK Lake Shore Limited: In Chicago the travel north past Union Station and then back in to the platform. I do not know why they do it this way, it adds a half an hour to the travel time, but now that they have no competition (NYC-PRR) the like to pretend that they are an air line and circle the terminal looking for a gate.
Lion..It is my understanding that the reason trains are backed into the Chicago Union Station is so the engine exhaust fumes are left outside or at least closer to the track entrance to the station. I remember being in the station on the platform to board a train several years ago and overheard a couple of conductors complaining about a train that came in head end first. It was very difficult to breath because of the exhaust fumes.
Modeling a railroad hypothetically set in time.
I can only speak for what I know that the santa fe did. It's name trains (superchief, elcapitan, etc) ran all of the cars vestibule first. diners were always kitchen end first. I'm sure this didn't happen on every train and less frequently as they neared the amtrak takeover. These trains would have been turned on a wye or balloon, depending on where they were. Lesser known trains were assembled whichever way was easiest for the crew.
I have seen pictures of an observation being turned on a table, but this was probably for maintenance and not the norm for operation.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Commuter cars use "walk-over" seats which can be flipped to the new direction. It takes the conductor only a minute or two to turn a whole car, even less time if some kid like me ran through the car flipping the backs.
But of course the OP is not worried about commuters cars, the likes of which today have fixed seats. "Let the geese fly backwards, what do we care." He wants to know about long distance trains. Well for sleepers it does not matter. For the diner, and the kitchen it does not matter. As a matter of fact, for today's AMTK lounge cars it does not matter since they are swivel seats and generally face the outside scenery anyway. That more or less leaves the coach cars, which BTW do have reversible seats, but they turn rather than flip. There is a foot peddle near the isle, under the seat, that can be depressed, allowing the entire seat to rotate. Guess what! AMTK would rather turn the entire train than to fuss with those things, and the conductors have been known to become disgruntled should a passenger dare to turn one seat so that maybe they could play cards together or something.
But when a train arrives at a terminal it is broken up, and sent to the yard for cleaning. Let the cleaners turn the chairs in the coaches, if that is what is required, the other cars do not care which way they are pointed. The observation car is the only car that needs to be turned on the table or wye, and that will be don on the way in or out of its cleaning location. AMTK does not have any observation cars: The cars *can* go either way, although as I said, they would rather turn the whole train than to fuss with turning the seats.
That said: some personal observations:
NYP: New York Penn Station is the end of many long distance trains, but it is a STATION, not a TERMINAL, the empty trains continue east to the Sunny Side Yards where there is a loop, they go through the loop and then back into the holding tracks.
GCT: New York Grand Central is a TERMINAL, not a station. For those who as count rivets: Grand Central STATION is a *post office*; Grand Central is a "Subway Station" and Grand Central TERMINAL is the home of the former New York Central System and now of Metro North Commuter Railroad also operating trains to New Haven under contract with CDOT.---- In the Day, NYC and NH would bring their long distance trains directly into the terminal, and then once unloaded, backed them out onto the main line again and ran them around the loop (a very tight loop, you understand) and then backed them into either a holding track or the departure platform. Neither NYC nor NH had any coach yards outside of GCT that a New York train could be turned on. ----- AMTK trains from up state New York now go over what used to be a freight only swing bridge at Spuyten Duyvil and thence into NYP. Trains from Boston cross the Hell Gate Bridge and run directly into NYP. ----- AMTK does not use GCT and their locomotives are not permitted in the Park Avenue Tunnel (because they do not also run on electricity, and because they do not have an escape hatch in the nose of the locomotive, as the clearances are too close to the walls for the crew to escape from a locomotive by the side door.
The LION's previous layout was the Eregion Railroad, modeled (loosely) after JRR Tolkien's Middle Earth. Him mostly ran regional and commuter equipment through his modeled town of Bree, but being at the cross roads of the Greenway and the Great East-West Road, long distance trains called there daily, although it was not a terminal. The North Star Express (east and west) was headed by a set of A-B-A F7s and the markers were carried by nice observation cars. Since neither the Blue Mountains nor the Lonely Mountain was modeled these were represented by hidden tracks. The trains did not have to turn since I had two train sets: one protected the eastbound schedule, the other the westbound.--- The King's Express was the north-south train running from Gondor to Fornost. Passing through Bree it had only one sleeper, one dining car, and three coaches. It was pulled by an A-A pair of Alco PA1s. The markers were on the last coach. When this train arrived at Fornost, cars and locomotives were moved about and laid up for the night, but nothing could be turned as there way no loop, wye or turntable. (The car cleaners had to turn the seats for the next trip.) On its southbound leg the PAs were pulled off in Hollin, and additional sleepers and an observation car was added. GG1 locomotives pulled the train through the tunnels of Khazad Dum and thence on to Gondor under the wire at a much higher rate of speed than the Alcos could put out. [Fornost was on the layout---Holin and Gondor were not, and were represented by a turning loop under the table.
What you do on your railroad is dictated by what you have to do it with. You get to make up the story and then get to run the trains as you see fit.
Penn Station in New York City uses Sunnyside Yard in Queens NY via tunnels under the East river. A balloon track turns trains for both Amtrak and New Jersey Transit today, It was built to do the same for the Pennsylvania RR
On my layout a reverse loop was installed and works great for turning the entire consist. Well worth the revision to the original plan.
Good Luck
John R.
Turning a passenger train one car at a time on a turntable is a very slow process. In 1968, a derailment on one leg of the St Paul Union Depot wye forced the GN/NP passenger trains to be routed directly into the depot. The GN just pulled their train back wards to Mpls and wye'd it there. The NP took their 14 car NCL apart and used the depot company turntable, then re-assembled the train. Almost a 3 hour delay before they left St Paul.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Seeing the response mentioning reversable seats reminds me of an excursion trip I took nearly 40 years ago. While the engine did a runaround. the little old ladies flipped their seat backs. The looks on the faces of the under 30 crowd was priceless. "What are they doing." Then they figured it out.
Have fun,
Richard
Here is a Balloon track in Vancouver. You can see the Via rail coaches being pulled around the round house. It was then a about three miles back to the station. It looks to be late 1970s.
Here is the same place in 1916. Balloon track and all.
Double click for super size.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
If a wye or reverse loop was not available, a turntable could be used to turn head end, observation and other passenger cars that had a front end. Prototype RR did this. Coaches often had seats with seat backs that could be flipped so these cars would not have to be turned.
I have seen photos of cars on a standard turntable, mostly those with a rear observation deck. Others were just sorted to get them in the right order going the other way. I think this was done mostly on smaller roads. As mentioned above, balloon tracks and sometimes wyes were used on larger roads.
A lot of passenger railroads used balloon tracks or wyes.
I have drawings of the Santa Fe coach yard in Chicago and they used a balloon track in the coach yard.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hi all!
At times, I can see the need to turn equipment 180 to set them up for the reverse direction. I currenly am thinking wye to turn engines and/or cars if needed. I have never seen a prototype turn-table for passenger stuff, but it probably exists. Any thoughts?
ctclibby
Todd Hackett
Libby, Montana 59923
I take only pictures then leave footprints on railroad property that I know is not mine, although I treat it as such...