I knew that you had steel benchwork, Chuck, and it was, in part, the impetus which helped me to decide to use steel brackets to support the upper level of my layout. I don't think they're required for the layout itself (probably 1"x2" with a 3/8" or1/2" plywood top), but I'm pretty sure they'll be useful for supporting the 4' double tube fluorescent light fixtures which will be used to illuminate the lower level.
Oh, I may be lighter than you, as your brackets would certainly support my weight.
As for the OP, I am assuming that his upper deck is attached to the ceiling joists. As long as the bolts for the brackets aren't place too close to their bottom edge, they should have no problem supporting the weight. On the other hand, if the floor above is already sagging.....
Wayne
doctorwayne You should then be able to use concrete for scenery, and lay atop the benchwork while applying it, without fear of deflection caused by inadequate support. Wayne
You should then be able to use concrete for scenery, and lay atop the benchwork while applying it, without fear of deflection caused by inadequate support.
Doc, your walls must be a lot stronger than mine are - or else you're a lot lighter than I am
I already support shelves up to 24 inches wide from steel shelf brackets. These are shelves with 3 levels of track, plus scenery. The brackets (on 16 inch centers) are good for a couple of hundred pounds each, as are the slotted tracks to which they attach.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
If you think that you need support for the front edge, the threaded rod is probably the easiest solution.
However, I'd change the benchwork support structure to something more robust. A fabricating shop could make you the required number of supports from 1" or 1 1/2" angle iron, welded together at a reasonable cost: all that you require is a simple "L"-shape. Make the vertical member long enough so that it can utilise the full depth of your ceiling joists for attachment, and have them drill each of the upper ends with two holes suitable for bolts. Once these are bolted in place, you can build whatever benchwork you wish to place atop the horizontal members. If those pieces are welded in place with the flat side up, a hole or two drilled in each will allow you to run a screw up from the bottom and into the wood of the benchwork, holding it in place.
I have similar brackets to support the yet-to-be-built upper level of my layout. They'll attach to the wall studs with lag bolts, and will also support underslung flourescent light fixtures, which will light the lower level.
I would be more inclined to use threaded rod. I feel that it is far more stable for downward support as well as any upward movement that any cable/ wire won't do. Also, if you bump a cable it will shake the entire framework vigorously as compared to the same on a solid rod. If for some reason you need minor adjustments, it is much easier done merely by readjusting the anchoring nuts on the treaded rod. Anchoring cable or wire isn't as simple and adjustments can be tough to do. Wir or cable is more likely to stretch than a rod also. You could sleeve the threaded rod w/ clear plastic flexable tubing so that it may not be as noticable and also not cut or scrape your skin if you hit the sharp thread..
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
IIRC, somebody supported an upper deck by hanging it from the ceiling with threaded rods. Some were disguised inside redwood trunks. The weakest part would be the threads of the attaching/adjusting nuts.
Chuck (Modleing Central Japan in September, 1964)
gandydancer19: I had a problem with supporting my upper level at the front. What I wound up doing was using 1/16th inch diameter music wire attached to the front and angled up to the rear. The trim board at the top is actually a 1x4, and the music wire is attached to a small turnbuckle fastened to that trim board.
I had a problem with supporting my upper level at the front. What I wound up doing was using 1/16th inch diameter music wire attached to the front and angled up to the rear. The trim board at the top is actually a 1x4, and the music wire is attached to a small turnbuckle fastened to that trim board.
How strong is that? I don't like foam scenery, so I'll be using hydrocal...which is heavy. You do give me a bit of an idea, though - perhaps vertical piano wire would help take the weight while not being as obtrusive in photos.
I wouldn't hang on it, although I am fairly confidant that it will support what I am doing.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Thanks for fixing the links.
In your first photo, the rear support for the upper level is the vertical member extending from the ceiling. The diagonal extending from the ceiling is not needed, nor is the brace shown in brown. The front edge of the upper deck is fully supported by the vertical member beneath the front edge.
I'm not sure that I understand the second photo, as it appears to be the upper deck again, but without support for the front edge, unless, of course, it's triangular braces disguised under the scenic profile - that would work, but I'm not convinced you'd need the diagonal brace from the ceiling here, either.
You've sorta lost me (not too difficult to do) with your third photo, and I no longer have the original article to which I could refer, but my recollection now of the mushroom design is, as you said, two levels but not viewable from the same side. There must be other nuances to the design, because what I'm seeing is something like this cross-section, below, where both upper and lower decks are fully supported.
I just googled mushroom-style layout and see that my sketch is generally correct, but that I neglected to include the high-level floor for the operators working on the upper deck.
LION puts Mushrooms in SOUP!
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
doctorwayne trainboyH16-44: Okay, ideas? Criticism? Well, for starters, I can't see your photos. Beyond that, my vague recollection of the mushroom design was that it's supposed to be self-supporting: fastened at the rear to a wall and cantilevered out towards the aisle, with no legs at the front edge. As I recall, the supports were triangular-shaped plywood gussets. It might refresh my memory if you could figure out the issue with the photos, though. Wayne
trainboyH16-44: Okay, ideas? Criticism?
Okay, ideas? Criticism?
Well, for starters, I can't see your photos.
Beyond that, my vague recollection of the mushroom design was that it's supposed to be self-supporting: fastened at the rear to a wall and cantilevered out towards the aisle, with no legs at the front edge. As I recall, the supports were triangular-shaped plywood gussets. It might refresh my memory if you could figure out the issue with the photos, though.
Fixed links to be clickable, this is the only forum that I have to remember to do that on...
A mushroom design is one where the upper deck is facing a different direction from the lower deck. In my case, the lower deck is viewed from the inside of the peninsula while the upper deck is viewed from the outside.
gandydancer19 I had a problem with supporting my upper level at the front. What I wound up doing was using 1/16th inch diameter music wire attached to the front and angled up to the rear. The trim board at the top is actually a 1x4, and the music wire is attached to a small turnbuckle fastened to that trim board.
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
The upper level is 7 foot long modules built in a box frame style with a sheet of Luan on top and a one inch blue sheet on top of that.
trainboyH16-44 Okay, ideas? Criticism?
Okay everyone, here's my dilemma. I didn't fully think about my design before I started building it and now I've run into the problem of not actually having enough room to support my upper deck from below in a few places, so I'd like to run a couple ideas by you and see what ideas you have in turn.
So my first idea, which will work on one side of the mushroom but not both, was to have 2x2" supports coming directly up from the floor to meet the bottom front of the benchwork for the upper deck and support it using the kind of plywood supports Mike Danneman is using, while the rear would be supported by 2x2s coming down from the rafters in the ceiling, like so:
http://hostthenpost.org/uploads/e8c3bb3375cd1c3858b4aa0d93aba672.jpg
Now, on the other side there's only space for a support at each end of the peninsula, so there would be about 10 feet between the two supports. It would be fully supported from the ceiling, like so:
http://hostthenpost.org/uploads/9247aa775e61f28c651077918b8e5cba.jpg
The shelf itself would be composed probably of 3/4" ply cut into 1x4s making a frame, and vary in depth between 16" and 24".
Here's a screenshot of the plan for the upper deck:
http://hostthenpost.org/uploads/656c85720e84b4034902e3e4ceaa742f.jpg
One thing to keep in mind is that Farr Creek Bridge will cause a depression in the framework, and the left side is the one that is harder to support from the floor.