Hi,
my name is Max and I'm an armchair model railroader from the Netherlands.
With a more than casual interest in computer programming and a lot of spare time.
So I decided it was time to program a virtual version of John Allen's Timesaver to be used on Windows 7 pc's.
But before I start releasing beta's of the application I have one rather important question:
am I free to use John Allen's name and the name Timesaver for an application like that?
I intend to release the software as freeware, so I won't be making any money of it - perhaps a
donate button somewhere to cover any expenses, but that would be all.
Any suggestions ?
Regards,
Max Roodveldt.
"Ain’t it just like the night to play tricks when you’re tryin' to be so quiet?"
Max- Welcome to Trains.com!
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
My Blog
Wow, what a question. I run into this kind of question a lot in the art world believe it or not. It always seems to be a two-part question to me.
Ethically, it seems okay...John Allen had no wife or kids so it's not like you'd be taking income potential from his heirs, unless he left rights to his brother or something like that. Ethically, you could ask someone who knew him and I suspect the answer might be that he would be tickled pink his timesaver had moved into the 21st Century; by all accounts he was a very, very generous man.
Legally, I am not a lawyer, but I've seen his name and the timesaver name all over the place, but I've never heard of anyone getting sued over it. Maybe someone at Model Railroader magazine could give you an informal opinion inasmuch as they deal in copyright issues on a daily basis.
I will say that, if you're really not trying to make money, I certainly respect you for being concerned enough to ask the question. Good luck to you, and I will be the first to try out your beta version if you'll let me.
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
I agree with St. Francis above. I don't recall seeing copyright symbols liberally spread over articles and diagrams showing the Timesaver and the name John Allen. He is so well known and distributed throughout the hobby in the west that he is like a fixture. As long as you were using their common/conventional names, and did link the concept to its author by name, I don't see what else you should do to be scrupulously ethical and legal about it.
Good for you, Max, for finding yet more things about model railroading to do, and that of using a computer to make software that will help the rest of us to enjoy the hobby another way. Good luck...I hope you get lots of good feedback and support for your efforts.
Crandell
Try this URL:
http://www.precisionlabels.com/shunt/jpage300.html
Click on S&ARR
@Lion - thanks for the welcome - it's good to be here.
@St. Francis - thanks for your kind reply and yes, I'll ask Model Railroader what they think about it. And I've put you on my list regarding beta's.
@Crandell - I've seen several Timesaver clones on the internet with all kind of names, but I felt that if I did a virtual Timesaver based on John's ideas I might as well call it a Timesaver...
@Billy - thanks for the link.
Here's a screenshot of what I'm working on:
Cheers,
Max.
Sometime after MS Train Simulator came out, someone built a Simulator version of the Timesaver - I have a copy of it somewhere. I also had a copy of a simple version of the timesaver that (IIRC) ran under Basic. Both versions were downloaded off the internet. I don't ever recall seeing anything about any repercussions as a result. So there is definitely a case that similar items have been done before.
I would also be interested in beta testing your version, if possible.
John
"You are what you eat," said a wise old man. Oh Lord, if it's true, I'm a garbage can.
trollw Sometime after MS Train Simulator came out, someone built a Simulator version of the Timesaver - I have a copy of it somewhere. I also had a copy of a simple version of the timesaver that (IIRC) ran under Basic. Both versions were downloaded off the internet. I don't ever recall seeing anything about any repercussions as a result. So there is definitely a case that similar items have been done before. I would also be interested in beta testing your version, if possible.
Me too, it sounds fun!
@John and John - thanks for your replies.
I've just put the question forward to Model Railroader magazine hoping they can supply me with a conclusive answer.
In the mean time I'm writing a little "How to" and as usual it's taking me more time than programming the application.
Once finished I'll supply a download link - if that's allowed here.
Looks like a lot of fun, please add me to your Beta List.
Thanks,
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
How timely(!) so to speak; this just came in my email from MRR....you can see MRR hasn't stopped making or trying to make money on this in all these years:
mrpdf031.html?utmsource=SilverpopMailing&utmmedium=email&utmcampaign=MRNews120105final&utmcontent=
Which is fine of course because they paid Allen for the original article and presumably the rights thereby when the article was first published...keep in mind they own the rights to the article, not the timesaver.
Looks like you have a good start by the way on your software version.
Hi St. Francis,
I've downloaded that same package more than a year ago - perhaps even longer - it's what got me started in the first place.
I just got an answer of one of Model Railroader's editors stating they don't have any copyrights on the name ''Timesaver'.
Today's mailman brought a very welcome present - a copy of the november 1972 issue with the original 'Timesaver' article - my own copy got lost in time.
So I'm gonna release betas of the sofware in a couple of days - just watch this forum...
If you plan to make it freeware, have you considered making ti opensource?
lordscarlet If you plan to make it freeware, have you considered making ti opensource?
No, I haven't - but that's just because I don't know nothing about it. I always thought opensource something for much larger projects - like Linux or something like that.
Would you care to tell me what could be the advantage in this case ?
Max Roodveldt lordscarlet: If you plan to make it freeware, have you considered making ti opensource? No, I haven't - but that's just because I don't know nothing about it. I always thought opensource something for much larger projects - like Linux or something like that. Would you care to tell me what could be the advantage in this case ? Cheers, Max. The advantage would simply be that if someone else was interested in modifying or extending the code, they could. I don't know if anyone would, but it means in 3 months, 1 year, or 5 years when someone like you wants to come along and rewrite it for whatever operating system is relevant, they have somewhere to start. Hopefully they can just tweak a few things, but perhaps start over in another language. The alternative is that someone decides they want to, say, add a 3D view. They can just add that to your existing software. It's not for everyone, and I'm not saying it's something you have to do, but it is an option if your goal is to just get it out there for people to use to the fullest extent possible.
lordscarlet: If you plan to make it freeware, have you considered making ti opensource?
The advantage would simply be that if someone else was interested in modifying or extending the code, they could. I don't know if anyone would, but it means in 3 months, 1 year, or 5 years when someone like you wants to come along and rewrite it for whatever operating system is relevant, they have somewhere to start. Hopefully they can just tweak a few things, but perhaps start over in another language. The alternative is that someone decides they want to, say, add a 3D view. They can just add that to your existing software. It's not for everyone, and I'm not saying it's something you have to do, but it is an option if your goal is to just get it out there for people to use to the fullest extent possible.
Any update on how the program in coming along? I'd like to download it, I need something to do at work.lol just kidding, I don't play games at work, certainly nothing MRR related-I don't want non MRR's to think trains are a bad thing.
I don't have one (yet) but, will this program be able to run on a tablet or smart phone (or whatever they are called these days? It'd be a great way to kill time while waiting for flights...or while in the air.
Is it easy to have different track arrangements? I could see one trackplan might get old after a while, but cycling through several may keep this classic 'fresh'.
I wish u well with this project...maybe it could be a subject for a MR article? Maybe the next project layout will be a virtual one?...Wow, I just thought of that, and think that might be one of my better ideas here.lol
http://delray1967.shutterfly.com/pictures/5
SEMI Free-Mo@groups.io
Dear delray1967,
Yes and no - the playing part of the project is finished but I discovered I really need an editing part to enable the user(s) to create his own situations. And it is this editor that's giving me a lot of headaches - John Allen's basic rules are very difficult to program...
I don't have a smartphone either - or a tablet. I'm still using a Nokia 6100.
But the application is written in C/C++ on a Windows platform but I don't know if it's portable - yet...
No - not yet, but considered...
As others have noted, a free online Timesaver has existed for many years. http://www.precisionlabels.com/shunt/jpage320.html
The same site has the more interesting (to me at least) virtual Inglenook:http://www.precisionlabels.com/shunt/jpage330.html
(I'd suggest reading the instructions for either of these before beginning. They are pretty easy, but RTFI will avoid some frustration)
As far as building a variety of one's own virtual switching layouts and operating them, Trainplayer is relatively inexpensive and very easy to use.http://www.trainplayer.com/
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
a couple of months ago I promised you a virtual Timesaver.
As usual it took much more time as expected but here's a link
http://roodvmax.home.xs4all.nl/
Please take a look and let me know what you think...
OMG MAX!!!! That is cool....really, really nice presentation...crystal clear, easy to use. Installs and works great....very clever!
Nice to see good ole American ingenuity at work.......oh wait! you're Dutch! Ha ha ha!
THANKS!
Dear St.Francis,
I'm glad you like it - enjoy...
Awesome!
I downloaded it, no problems. I am using Vista platform. Works wonderful.. That is a nice piece of work. Once again, someone found a way to push the limits of this hobby. Great Job!
And THANK YOU!
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
WOW !
glad you like it...
Nice work. Sorry, but I do like the original better:
http://www.precisionlabels.com/shunt/jpage320.html
Partly I like it better because of no download.