I model pretty much the same era (1940s-50s) but the "transition" is a little different--the transition from electric locomotives to diesel-electric on a previously all-electric interurban, as well as the transition from a passenger railroad to a freight-only railroad. I'm kind of modeling "backwards in time"--first I only had diesels, then I added a couple of electric box motors, then a couple streetcars, and recently got a couple of interurban passenger cars. The prototype I model (Sacramento Northern) stopped carrying interurban passengers in 1941, stopped streetcars in 1946 and bought their first diesels the same year, dropped electric power in 1953, and abandoned most of the right-of-way I'm modeling by 1966. Now, admittedly I still have to install trolley poles and electric overhead, but I still run the freight motors and streetcars because, well, they're fun. At some point I'll hang overhead and evict the diesels once and for all...but if I model the 1946-1953 period, I can operate both!
CTValleyRR Awwwww, Man! And all this time I thought we were talking about the time I had both DC and DCC locos on my layout! Sheesh.
Awwwww, Man!
And all this time I thought we were talking about the time I had both DC and DCC locos on my layout!
Sheesh.
Great response!!
CZ
Here's a 2006 MR Forum thread, Years of Steam and Diesel, where the primary thought was when steam conversion was completed to diesel.
Here's the original questions...
AirborneI Love the steam era, and like early diesel. Is there a location where I can find out the years I should be modeling if I want to have both on my layout? In addition which locomotives I should be displaying?
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
selector AltonFan: I know about the exclusion of steam locomotives from New York City, but this is the second time that mention was made of a Chicago ordinance banning steam locomotives in the city. I have trouble believing such a ban was enacted in Chicago because steam locomotives continued to be used within city limits at least as late as 1957, when the C&NW finally stopped running steam powered commuter trains. (And, IIRC, the occasional steam locomotive operated within city limits into the 1960s.) OTOH, it is my understanding that smoke and/or fire concerns motivated the C&NW to purchase Ingersoll-Rand boxcab switchers in the 1920s. So, does anybody have any concrete information on an anti-steam locomotive ordinance passed in Chicago? As for steam being an "almost 18th century technology," I'm not prepared to go that far, but by the time dieselization began in earnest, steam locomotive technology had just about reached its practical limits. I used this as a guide, plus another site mentioning the Kaufmann Act. I don't know of a city-wide ordinance in Chicago. http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/steamtown/shs4.htm Steam engines of all kinds were designed and built in the late 1700's, and development of the various competitors to Stephenson were all built in the very ealry 1800's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotives See first few paragraphs after the index. in blue. Yes, there were many advances that made them more powerful, heavier, and hungrier, and the bulk of those were in place by about 1930. Crandell
AltonFan: I know about the exclusion of steam locomotives from New York City, but this is the second time that mention was made of a Chicago ordinance banning steam locomotives in the city. I have trouble believing such a ban was enacted in Chicago because steam locomotives continued to be used within city limits at least as late as 1957, when the C&NW finally stopped running steam powered commuter trains. (And, IIRC, the occasional steam locomotive operated within city limits into the 1960s.) OTOH, it is my understanding that smoke and/or fire concerns motivated the C&NW to purchase Ingersoll-Rand boxcab switchers in the 1920s. So, does anybody have any concrete information on an anti-steam locomotive ordinance passed in Chicago? As for steam being an "almost 18th century technology," I'm not prepared to go that far, but by the time dieselization began in earnest, steam locomotive technology had just about reached its practical limits.
I know about the exclusion of steam locomotives from New York City, but this is the second time that mention was made of a Chicago ordinance banning steam locomotives in the city. I have trouble believing such a ban was enacted in Chicago because steam locomotives continued to be used within city limits at least as late as 1957, when the C&NW finally stopped running steam powered commuter trains. (And, IIRC, the occasional steam locomotive operated within city limits into the 1960s.)
OTOH, it is my understanding that smoke and/or fire concerns motivated the C&NW to purchase Ingersoll-Rand boxcab switchers in the 1920s.
So, does anybody have any concrete information on an anti-steam locomotive ordinance passed in Chicago?
As for steam being an "almost 18th century technology," I'm not prepared to go that far, but by the time dieselization began in earnest, steam locomotive technology had just about reached its practical limits.
I used this as a guide, plus another site mentioning the Kaufmann Act. I don't know of a city-wide ordinance in Chicago.
http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/steamtown/shs4.htm
Steam engines of all kinds were designed and built in the late 1700's, and development of the various competitors to Stephenson were all built in the very ealry 1800's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_locomotives See first few paragraphs after the index. in blue. Yes, there were many advances that made them more powerful, heavier, and hungrier, and the bulk of those were in place by about 1930.
Crandell
And if you really want to get picky about it, the first steam propelled ship was in the 16th century. Steam turbines were fairly old technology by the end of the industrial revolution.
m horton the only dual service loco on the NH was the FL9.
the only dual service loco on the NH was the FL9.
Well, I wasn't intending to get into a detailed history of NH motive power, but you're right, although the road operated 60 of them from 1956 until the PC merger. Several of the electrics also had AC/DC capability (catenary / 3rd rail operation). There were also two or three other locos that had dual capability installed by the road as an experiment, although I couldn't find them in my reference just now.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
AltonFan I know about the exclusion of steam locomotives from New York City, but this is the second time that mention was made of a Chicago ordinance banning steam locomotives in the city. I have trouble believing such a ban was enacted in Chicago because steam locomotives continued to be used within city limits at least as late as 1957, when the C&NW finally stopped running steam powered commuter trains. (And, IIRC, the occasional steam locomotive operated within city limits into the 1960s.) OTOH, it is my understanding that smoke and/or fire concerns motivated the C&NW to purchase Ingersoll-Rand boxcab switchers in the 1920s. So, does anybody have any concrete information on an anti-steam locomotive ordinance passed in Chicago? As for steam being an "almost 18th century technology," I'm not prepared to go that far, but by the time dieselization began in earnest, steam locomotive technology had just about reached its practical limits.
selector The argument could be made that the demise of steam was in the wind (so to speak) about the time major cities like NY and Chicago announced that, in order to improve air quality in their cities where coal and fuels of all sorts were used heavily to heat homes, and since internal combustion engines were adding to the effect, steam locomotives would not be allowed within city limits... Steam locomotives were close to 18th century technology. Crandell
The argument could be made that the demise of steam was in the wind (so to speak) about the time major cities like NY and Chicago announced that, in order to improve air quality in their cities where coal and fuels of all sorts were used heavily to heat homes, and since internal combustion engines were adding to the effect, steam locomotives would not be allowed within city limits...
Steam locomotives were close to 18th century technology.
Dan
selector The argument could be made that the demise of steam was in the wind (so to speak) about the time major cities like NY and Chicago announced that, in order to improve air quality in their cities where coal and fuels of all sorts were used heavily to heat homes, and since internal combustion engines were adding to the effect, steam locomotives would not be allowed within city limits. It meant that traction locomotives would have to take over and haul the tonnages into the city interiors. With the devlopment of traction motors, and wondering if internal combustion engines that only needed one operator could be used to generate power, the diesel electric was just around the corner. I think the first diesel-electric appeared in Canada in the '30's, but I'd have to check. Anyway, you could say the transition era began prior to 1900 when the first traction motors were developed, but the 1923 Kaufman Act which banned steamers from inside New York City (I don't know how comprehensive or exclusive/inclusive it was) meant that steamers' range was slowly being restricted. Steam locomotives were close to 18th century technology. Crandell
The argument could be made that the demise of steam was in the wind (so to speak) about the time major cities like NY and Chicago announced that, in order to improve air quality in their cities where coal and fuels of all sorts were used heavily to heat homes, and since internal combustion engines were adding to the effect, steam locomotives would not be allowed within city limits. It meant that traction locomotives would have to take over and haul the tonnages into the city interiors. With the devlopment of traction motors, and wondering if internal combustion engines that only needed one operator could be used to generate power, the diesel electric was just around the corner. I think the first diesel-electric appeared in Canada in the '30's, but I'd have to check.
Anyway, you could say the transition era began prior to 1900 when the first traction motors were developed, but the 1923 Kaufman Act which banned steamers from inside New York City (I don't know how comprehensive or exclusive/inclusive it was) meant that steamers' range was slowly being restricted.
The Kaufmann act was one of the drivers that pushed the NH into early dieselization. Many of their locos were dual diesel / electric, which ran on diesel most of the time, but had third rail shoes for use in the NYC area. Also, the Shore Line was electrified (catenary wire) up to the city of New Haven, allowing pure electric operations in SE CT as well.
Red Standefer looking back on his Cotton Belt career: A brief biography appeared in the fourth quarter Cotton Belt News for1967. C. W. Standefer is called G. W. Standefer in this article that is part of a series on Cotton Belt employees. Standefer is quoted as saying, “When I began railroading all locomotives were fired with coal. It was fed into the box by sheer muscle and skill until some years later when the engines were converted to burn oil. But,” he declares, “the greatest advance in railroading was the innovation of the diesel-electric locomotive.” from Cotton Belt Engineer Chapter 9
CTValleyRR
You make an interesting point by showing that the 'transition era' was not neccessarily a successful era for many railroads.
Nor was it for many of their employees.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
wjstix Although there was a long "transition" period from steam to diesel - the Dan Patch Electric Line used oil-electric precursors to diesels as early as 1908-10, and some railroads (generally small shortlines or logging or narrow-gauge lines) used steam into the mid-sixties - really as noted roughly 1945-60 is the "transition era" in common usage. I think the point where US railroads had the same pct. of diesel and steam locomotives came in about 1953...about 5 years before that, railroads were maybe 90% steam, 5 years after that, about 90% diesel. p.s. "diesels" in railroad terms refers to "diesel - electric" engines. There were a few "diesel hydraulics" in the US, but they weren't very successful.
Although there was a long "transition" period from steam to diesel - the Dan Patch Electric Line used oil-electric precursors to diesels as early as 1908-10, and some railroads (generally small shortlines or logging or narrow-gauge lines) used steam into the mid-sixties - really as noted roughly 1945-60 is the "transition era" in common usage.
I think the point where US railroads had the same pct. of diesel and steam locomotives came in about 1953...about 5 years before that, railroads were maybe 90% steam, 5 years after that, about 90% diesel.
p.s. "diesels" in railroad terms refers to "diesel - electric" engines. There were a few "diesel hydraulics" in the US, but they weren't very successful.
OK -- serious contribution time.
FWIW, the New Haven was completely dieselized by 1953.... and went into receivership about 15 years later. Next came the Penn Central and that was all she wrote. Although much of the blame for that can be laid at the feet of Patrick B. McGinnis, it's obvious that the labor savings and operational efficiencies that came with diesels still didn't allow a railroad like the NH, which earned much of it's revenue from passenger operations, to stay afloat.
Flying switch56 Just on a personal note, the most significant transitional era occurred in my mid teens when I became more interested in girls than model trains. Interestingly enough, the older I got, the more I was drawn back to model railroading. I guess the old adage is true: you never forget your first love.
Just on a personal note, the most significant transitional era occurred in my mid teens when I became more interested in girls than model trains. Interestingly enough, the older I got, the more I was drawn back to model railroading.
I guess the old adage is true: you never forget your first love.
In Scouting, we say you were overcome by the fumes... gas fumes, alcohol fumes, and perfumes!
Vic
Modelling the span between the real and the N-sane...
CTValleyRR!
Good answer!
I think the steam to diesel 'transistion' is clearly the most radical change in the industry. Hence the common acknowledgement that it is THE "transition era". Everything else the OP mentions, although important, takes second place.
Well, once more I find myself in agreement with Richhotrain!
The OP is using "transition" generically, while the MR community uses it as the time period when the Diesel replaced the Steam locomotives. To me, I liken it to the "toy train" use of "post war" - meaning from 1946 thru the late '50s.
Of course many MRs love this period, because they can run brutish steamers alongside colorful diesels and be pretty much prototypically correct. Kind of like having your cake, etc., etc.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
As everyone else before me has already stated, the term "transition era" in model railroad is that period in the 1950's when railroads discontinued the use of steam locomotives in favor of diesel locomotives. That is a pretty much accepted fact.
All of the other changes you mentioned are not really transitional but more in the nature of evolutionary.
Rich
Alton Junction
The steam to diesel change was the most dramatic change the railroads underwent. It was highly visual, very short, wide spread and greatly changed the railroads. While the outer period is considered 1945 to 1960, most roads changed over completely in a shorter time frame. Unlike other transitions, it was not slow nor localized. It's rapid effects were cause partly by WWII. The war delayed the transition and the heavy demands on the railroads and their locomotives made the roads ready for new locomotives. The dramatic cost savings made for complete changeovers.
Contrast this change with the Passenger trains. Passenger trains peaked in the period leading up to WWI. After WWI from 1920 to Amtrak in 1971 passenger service was in steady decline (with a brief revival in WWII). The number of passenger trains declined year after year and many were abruptly dropped when mail contracts were lost. What the railroads turned over to Amtrak was but a small remnant of what had once been and capped a 50 year transition.
Paul
SUX V R40 Rider The steam era alone has different transitions. From wood burning, to coal to oil.
The steam era alone has different transitions. From wood burning, to coal to oil.
Not really. Oil did not replace coal on steam locomotives the way coal replaced wood. Most railroads used the cheapest fuel available, and in oil producing regions, Bunker C oil, a residue from the refining process, was used as locomotive fuel. It had the consistency of mud, and required steam to make it fluid enough to use as a fuel.
Although some otherwise coal-burning lines did use oil for smoke abatement, most lines used oil only in oil-producing regions. Engines were often converted if they were reassigned to areas where the other fuel was prevalent.
But then, even the coal-burning lines converted to oil with dieselization.
SUX V R40 Rider Then the introduction of diesel and diesel electric and its many transitions, which are still going on today.
Then the introduction of diesel and diesel electric and its many transitions, which are still going on today.
I wouldn't characterize the continued refinement of the diesel-electric locomotive a transition. I'd say, from about 1960 on (the "second generation" of diesel-electric locomotives), there have been no real breakthroughs in locomotive technology; only tweaks and improvements, the general principle remaining unchanged.
I tend to believe that even if diesel fuel is eventually replaced by something else, it will probably still be fueling a power plant generating electric to drive traction motors geared to locomotive drive wheels.
Having said all that, when modelers speak of "the transition era" they generally mean the period following World War II when diesel-electric locomotive replaced steam.
jeffrey-wimberly In model railroad terms the transition era in question is the transition from steam to diesel. For many it serves as a reckoning point backward and forward, before and after. Once most of the railroads started the transition to dieselisation they almost never looked back. Norfolk and Western held out the longest but finally they too changed over to diesel power.
In model railroad terms the transition era in question is the transition from steam to diesel. For many it serves as a reckoning point backward and forward, before and after. Once most of the railroads started the transition to dieselisation they almost never looked back. Norfolk and Western held out the longest but finally they too changed over to diesel power.
The biggest reason that we call the shift from primarily steam to all diesel the transition era was that, even more than the kind of locomotive, the infrastructure underwent tremendous changes. Turntables and the traditional roundhouse weren't the best answer for diesel maintenance, so specialized rectangular shops replaced them. (EMD didn't build shops, but they could sell you plans for one optimized for maintenance of their products.) Overhead coal, oil and water supplies were replaced by ground level fuel and water (for train heat boilers) connections. And the list goes on...
Norfolk and Western tried to, in the words of long-time Trains editor David P. Morgan, "Dieselize without diesels," investing heavily in infrastructure improvements. What finally killed N&W steam was the loss of external suppliers of such things as air compressor and valve gear parts. N&W built steam locomotives - but not from raw ore.
In Japan, the transition era was later (last steam in regular service on the JNR, 1975) and was mainly from steam to catenary, with diesels (mostly diesel-hydraulics) left to pick up the crumbs.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - the pivotal year of the Japanese transition era)
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
99% of the time, it refers to the 1950's, when railroads were still running the last of their steam locos alongside shiny new diesels. And passenger trains were still shiny and sleek.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
Most model railroaders transition era is steam to diesel. The steam to diesel takeover was the largest transition the railroads went through. Many changes were brought about and thousands lost jobs and the railroads were never the same after wards. Some roads dieselized so fast that they bought from every available builder and learned some very costly lessens in the mean time. Other roads did so in a methodical way that proved very profitable to them. Coal hauling roads were slow to change. They felt that they were cutting their own throats when they were getting fuel from their own mines and what was sold was profit. Others invested heavily on the dying steam engine in the later years. I bet none of them thought they would be paying $4 a gallon for fuel while there were still first generation diesels on the rails.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
I'm a bit confused what is meant by the transition era of railroads.
As an amateur historical researcher I love chronological timelines. I feel they tell the brief story of what happened and and most importantly when it happened. If someone wants to look further into the details of that moment in history timelines are also a great introductory tool.
As such I looked for and found a chronological timeline of the history of railroads all the way up to 2010. It seems there are several different transition eras in railroading. This is where it is a bit confusing when I see model railroaders talk about the transition era.
Then there are the many transitions of rolling stock. Including but not limited to when the caboose stopped being used. Reefers alone went through a transition of insulated with stray or hay with huge blocks of ice to a fan blowing across the ice with better insulation in the cars to the more modern coolant systems used today.
And what about the material the track was made from. It transitioned from iron, which would curl up, rip through the wood bottom rail cars and kill hundreds of people in the process to the more reliable steel that no longer does that.
Then there is the transition periods of passenger rail service. It wen through a huge transition on May 1, 1971 when Amtrak official began operation. Happy belated 40th birthday Amtrak.
So when model railroaders speak of transition era exactly which one are they talking about?
One additional caveat the railroads which operate mainlines are currently going through another transition mandated by the federal government. It started in 2008 and has to be completed by 2015.