I am lucky to own 2 of them, one was given to me 40 so years ago from my grandfather and found one yesterday in a local train shop. The one given to me is in a black and red paint and the one bought yesterday is in green and black.
Not sure about Bachmann, but the AHM/Rivarossi 4-4-0's are V&T locos.
Back in the day of the original Mantua General, it was a common item in the "help" columns in the model press for alternatives to the not-so-flexible shaft between the tender motor and the gearvox in the loco.
Buster Keaton's movie is on Youtube. Great train shots. And it's actually quite good. I've not seen the Disney one, but they really tried. There's a section on it in one of the books I have, about hiding the modern appliances as best they could - if you note in the Disney version there's a large covering between the drivers - hiding the brake cylinder and brake shoes which the Civil War era General did not have.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I ran three Mantua Generals, one slightly modernized and the others mechanisms under brass boilers off the Ken Kidder Mogul, and they were really good runners. Of course, the later models had a traction tire on the left (insulated) side.
Deano
You could probably do quite well with a version of the old tried-and-true Tidewater Central. It was designed for a 4'x6' space, but could easily be lengthened. It has a couple nice locations for bridges, and the spurs could be located as on the original, or they could be changed to suit. The 18" radius curves would be fine for the Mantua/Tyco General and appropriate cars. Code 70 track would help the appearance, but would not be crucial.
Note that the Mantua/Tyco model was a pretty close replica of the General in its post Civil war appearance, but several model locos in this discussion are not quite correct for the General, even though they may have been sold with Western & Atlantic lettering. I believe the Bachmann and Rivarossi/AHM 4-4-0 designs were based on Virginia & Truckee locos, and represent bigger and newer locos. That probably wouldn't make much difference to an 18-month old!
Good luck!
Tom
Pitt,
To The Forum's.
You might be interested in this short You Tube video of a Civil War era. layout. There are also more on the right side, also building small layouts. Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B5A-AgRGxU
Take Care!
Frank
I have always had interest in model railroads and real interst in the Civil War. I was talking about the movie "The Great Locomotive Chase" with someone noting that I am relatred to William Pittenger who wrote the account of this gret chapter in Civil War history.
This prompted me to dig out my old HO train set only to find that the set I had was indeed the Tyco version of the General and 4 W. & A. R. R. cars! It ran at least but needed cleaning which I promptly did and has spured my interst in building a Civil War model layout.
My 18 month old Grandson loves trains and now I can't resist the challenge! Does anyone on this forum know of a layout that would fit what I am trying to do? I am looking for a layout that would be 4' X 8' and could go even a little bigger.
Doesn't have to be 4' X 8' but would really like to get started on this ASAP.
Justin, did you ever get one. Ihave one that I'm not using. I'll let you have it. It's a Mantua, but part of the drive shaft has been lost. The motor is working but would need to be cleaned and oiled.
Charles
I believe Buster Keaton's movie is in the public domain (could be wrong). Copies of varying quality are available on the Web with a quick search. Disney's movie is still under copyright; you will have to (or should) buy it.
The rebuilt General is in a museum, see John Reid's thread for more information.
Fred W
I did not watch the movies. What would the conversion involve? There could be a good enough. How noticeable would it be with no conversion?
Justin
JLK Would it work to modify a old-time Bachman 4-4-0 to look like the General at the time of Andrew's raid?
Would it work to modify a old-time Bachman 4-4-0 to look like the General at the time of Andrew's raid?
Are you trying to be accurate? Or imitate the movies? As was mentioned, the General was heavily rebuilt after the Civil War. At the time of the raid, the General was actually an older outside frame design, and didn't look much like a classic 4-4-0. The movies used the rebuilt version with inside frame. SMR did a very realistic model of the before-rebuild General in O scale/gauge a few years back.
Whether it will "work" depends upon you and the desired results. Almost anything is possible. Whether it is desirable depends upon how much work you want to put into the conversion/bash, and how faithful the final result needs to be to prototype. Are you willing to build a new frame? A new superstructure? Or just have a passing resemblance to the later General?
For more information about the General (and other Civil War engines), I strongly recommend joining the Yahoo Civil War Railroads Group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Civil_War_RRs/). The message archives and files have a lot of great info on the General.
my thoughts, your choices
Darth Santa Fe richg1998: I have a couple Tyco steamers but they are oversize. More like OO scale. Don't forget, it is your railroad. Rich If you mean the "old time" 4-6-0 and 4-8-0 steam engines, they are oversized. The General is properly HO scaled.
richg1998: I have a couple Tyco steamers but they are oversize. More like OO scale. Don't forget, it is your railroad. Rich
I have a couple Tyco steamers but they are oversize. More like OO scale. Don't forget, it is your railroad.
Rich
If you mean the "old time" 4-6-0 and 4-8-0 steam engines, they are oversized. The General is properly HO scaled.
I never said the General is over size. I have the Tyco 4-6-0 and 4-8-0.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
richg1998 I have a couple Tyco steamers but they are oversize. More like OO scale. Don't forget, it is your railroad. Rich
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Bach before Model Power bought out Mantua, I bought the upgrade can motor from them and installed it in my General. Much better motor.Runs nice on DCC.
A can motor from a old computer CD drive would fit. Same size shaft in the motor.
I did that with a Bachmann old time 4-4-0. Fine tuned the loco and tender, all wheel pickup in the tender, and a much better runner with DCC decoder, also.
Harold Minky has a site with making the Bachmann a better runner.
Back in the 1960s, the same metal steam locomotives would be sold as Mantua in kit form and Tyco as ready to run (including a train set version of the General with passenger and freight cars). That was back when Tyco was not as disdained a name as it was to become. It was more or less the exact same stuff just a different marketing name. (Over time more and more plastic found its way into the kits, so that one finds Mantua 4-6-2s and 2-8-2s all metal, and with plastic cabs and metal tenders, and then plastic cabs and plastic tenders.)
The General was a reasonably easy Mantua kit, since it did not have the valve gear complexities of the Mantua 4-6-2 and 2-8-2. The link from the motor in the tender to the locomotive itself was the tricky part and many modelers attempted improvements with varying degrees of success. The tender was quite heavy and the trucks did not roll all that well, so a fair degree of the engine's modest tractive effort was expended just pulling itself around. Fortunately the Mantua/Tyco freight and passenger cars were small and light. It may well be that the factory assembled train set versions of the General were more precise in their drive train assembly than your average kit, but it has been too long since I have examined any of them to say for sure.
Another problem the General had was that the tender was so filled with the motor that if the mechanism was not made to run smoothly before final assembly, the rather small motor would be worked very hard and get quite hot. If the person assembling the kit did not make sure the driver and side rod mechanism was smooth as silk before final assembly the motor was somewhat prone to burning out.
The after-market Cary boiler drilled and tapped to fit onto the General chassis, mentioned above, is of course a totally different, and much later, prototype. I seem to recall it came close to a Milwaukee Road prototype of the 1890s era -- a very sharp looking engine but rather a "late" 4-4-0. The Bachmann engine mentioned above is their more or less generic 4-4-0. Also nice looking and a post Civil War appearance.
Be aware that if what you seek is an accurate model of The General, the Mantua/Tyco model uses the current appearance of the engine as its prototype. The General was heavily modified after the Civil War into its current appearance, possibly in the 1870s or perhaps after the war due to damage. Its original appearance from the 1850s when it was built was rather different in many particulars. There is a famous photo showing a badly war damaged 4-4-0 that is sometimes claimed to be The General -- it is named Hero by the photographer but it is not clear whether he was giving the engine's name, or describing its status as a hero engine.
Somewhat off topic but if engines that look like the General interest you, I hope you have seen two movies: Buster Keaton's classic silent film The General -- sometimes described as the closest we will ever come to seeing actual film of the Civil War -- and Disney's surprisingly accurate The Great Locomotive Chase. The equipment in both films is quite authentic.
Dave Nelson
Mantua's original General is all cast metal with the motor in the tender and a flexible drive shaft to the loco. Mine is from the 60's and could hardly pull its own weight. Replaced the boiler with a more modern Cary casting and the extra weight was appreciated.
I have a Bachmann HO 4-4-0 train set that I bought years ago for a Holiday layout around the Christmas tree. On box, the word Jupiter appears on the sides of the tender as in bigpainoguy's photo. However, on the actual tender, the number 119 appears on both sides of the tender and the word Jupiter does not appear anywhere. The passenger cars carry the Union Pacific road name.
Bachmann made the 4-4-0 train set in both HO scale and N scale, and it came in a variety of road names but not the Western & Atlantic. So, with the Bachmann set, you would not be literally running the General of Civil War fame.
Bachmann is currently offering "Union" and "Confederate" 4-4-0 train sets. I cannot speak to the quality of the current Bachmann train sets, but the older set that I have and bought new, was totally unreliable, starting and stopping for no apparent reason right out of the box. So, now, I just use the DC power pack to test new locos on a DC powered track before I install decoders for my DCC layout.
I have always heard that Mantua made a good product, but I have no experience with it. If I am not mistaken, Mantua is planning to release their 4-4-0 model in the Western & Atlantic road name. However, others have commented that Mantua has "threatened" to release that model for quite some time now but has never done so.
I have not heard such good things about Tyco, but I will leave it to others to address that quality issue.
Alton Junction
And another thing, are the Tyco locomotives any good?
Bachmann makes a nice HO "General"; it's comparable to one of their 4-4-0 "Jupiter"s and can be had for about $90 new or as always you can pick one up off E-bay for half or less than that.
My "Jupiter' looks & runs nice, pulling the 5-car consist of the White Pass & Yukon passenger set, although it 'sparks' from time to time, hence its new monniker, "Sparky".
Mantua's steam engines are usually good, but the Generals have been around a while, so you'll more than likely have to give it a good cleaning and oiling before it'll run really well. The Mantua General is metal, so it should be able to pull decently.
I haven't ever run one myself, so others here may be able to give you better advice.
Does anyone know where I can get a HO scale "General"? There are some Mantua ones on Ebay but are they any good? Thanks in advance.