Folks, we have long left the discussion about the whereabouts of the BLI forum and have entered into discussing Bachmann vs. BLI vs. MTH.
We have had that discussion many times before. It finally boils down to a personal preference or liking.
Let´s move on now.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL One other note - you must have bought that Spectrum Mountain fairly recently. That loco was on the market for a long time, Bachmann had tons of them for years, made dozens of production runs and sold tens of thousands of them. Sorry you did not get a good one. I will agree the wipers may not be the best design, but I can say that about a lot features on a lot of different brands. Take care, Sheldon
One other note - you must have bought that Spectrum Mountain fairly recently. That loco was on the market for a long time, Bachmann had tons of them for years, made dozens of production runs and sold tens of thousands of them. Sorry you did not get a good one. I will agree the wipers may not be the best design, but I can say that about a lot features on a lot of different brands.
Take care,
Sheldon
Nope, I bought all of the Spectrums that I own (except that DMIR that Bachmann exchanged for my 4-8-2) back in the 2004-2005 time frame when I was first getting into HO scale.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich, here is the other thing about this whole conversation, If I go down the list of every steam locomtive that BLI has made since they started out, the only ones of interest to me are:
The USRA Heavy Mikado - I own two
The N&W Class A - I own one
The Reading T-1 - I own two
The N&W Y6b - I don't own any - have not found any at a price I will pay.
I'm not a collector, I model the C&O, B&O, WM and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL. I don't buy anything outside the theme and era of my layout.
Bachmann on the other hand makes mostly average, typical, some slighly "generic" locos that are either close to locos owned by the prototypes I model (while not perfect the 2-8-0 is close enough for B&O and WM, and with a smaller tender the C&O) or fit in to my needs and desires for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL roster.
So if I can tweek this, adjust that, add a little weight here, at Bachmann prices I am all in. And remember I don't want to pay for sound - I don't like or use it. A cheap decoder I will happily pitch or sell on e-bay, but I would rather locos I buy be DC, or like Bachmann, easily converted back to DC.
Most of my locos are personalized slight for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, but the Mountains and the 2-8-2 conversions are my favorites. This 2-8-2 picture was before the paint shop. I have Mountains with all three types of tenders, and my 2-6-6-2's have long vandy tenders.
I like Proto steam, I have two 2-8-8-2's and two 0-8-0's, again typical work a day type locos that fit my theme and era. And they are great runners and well detailed.
I'm still waiting for someone to make a good Pacific that is not a PRR K4.
I put Bachmann tenders behind all kinds of other locos to give the ATLANTIC CENTRAL that "Family" look, including a few brass Pacifics.
BLI is mostly aiming at the RTR casual, I collect models of famous locomotives, modeler - no offense intended to anyone, but that is not my interest in this hobby. MTH is in the same camp - even more so.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL First rule with all Bachmann steam locos - ADD WEIGHT TO THE TENDER - the tenders are too light to insure good tracking and/or good electrical pickup. The whole idea of lots of pickup wheels is so that when a few wheels loose contact (especially on a rigid frame steam loco on too sharp a curve) there are some other wheels making contact somewhere - the tender maybe. Two ounces of weight weight is a small price to pay for a value like a Spectrum Heavy Mountain - my dollar cost average purchase price for my fleet of nine is less than $90 each! Sheldon
First rule with all Bachmann steam locos - ADD WEIGHT TO THE TENDER - the tenders are too light to insure good tracking and/or good electrical pickup. The whole idea of lots of pickup wheels is so that when a few wheels loose contact (especially on a rigid frame steam loco on too sharp a curve) there are some other wheels making contact somewhere - the tender maybe.
Two ounces of weight weight is a small price to pay for a value like a Spectrum Heavy Mountain - my dollar cost average purchase price for my fleet of nine is less than $90 each!
That's another reason why I called the Spectrums "crappy". You are right, Sheldon, the tenders are way too light. When I pull my other Spectrums out of the round house, I will add weight to the tender as you say.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, I know how this is going to sound, I will be as polite as I can. How did the copper wipers get bent in the first place? I have nine of those (three are the C&O version) - I bent one wiper one time and learned that was a handling issue with the loco. If they don't get bent, they work fine. If you handle the loco carefully and it does not de-rail - they don't get bent. First rule with all Bachmann steam locos - ADD WEIGHT TO THE TENDER - the tenders are too light to insure good tracking and/or good electrical pickup. The whole idea of lots of pickup wheels is so that when a few wheels loose contact (especially on a rigid frame steam loco on too sharp a curve) there are some other wheels making contact somewhere - the tender maybe. Two ounces of weight weight is a small price to pay for a value like a Spectrum Heavy Mountain - my dollar cost average purchase price for my fleet of nine is less than $90 each! A search of this forum will find a thread where I expained all my little bachmann tune-up tips that make good locos into great locos. My BLI Mikado tip - don't buy one unless you have serious kit building skills - you might need them like I did. Sheldon
Rich,
I know how this is going to sound, I will be as polite as I can. How did the copper wipers get bent in the first place?
I have nine of those (three are the C&O version) - I bent one wiper one time and learned that was a handling issue with the loco. If they don't get bent, they work fine. If you handle the loco carefully and it does not de-rail - they don't get bent.
A search of this forum will find a thread where I expained all my little bachmann tune-up tips that make good locos into great locos.
My BLI Mikado tip - don't buy one unless you have serious kit building skills - you might need them like I did.
That's a fair question. My answer is that, like all of my locos, I handled the 4-8-2 Heavy Mountain very carefully. I had initially bought it at one of my LHS and, for all I know, it may have been returned damaged by someone else. The copper fingers kept on catching in the driver wheels, so I finally returned it to Bachmann when it started stalling. I blame it on poor design. None of my Proto or BLI steamers had such crappy wipers.
As for the BLI Mikado, I have one of those and it is a pleasure to operate. No problems, ever.
As far as your Bachmann tune up tips, I wish I had read them sooner. You say from good to great. I say maybe from crappy to good. I remain unimpressed with the Spectrum steamers. They come in a poor third to BLI and Proto.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL: Rich, Which Bachmann locos do you have that as you say "suck"? did you return any of them to Bachmann for your free repalcement? Send them to me and I will fix them right up for you. Sheldon For starters, I had a C&O 4-8-2 Heavy Mountain. The copper fingers kept on getting tangled up in the driver wheels. The thing would always start and stop, intermittent power. So, I send it in for repairs to Bachmann. They call back and say that they no longer stock the parts so it is not repairable. Pick your free replacement. The only thing they had in stock for me to choose from was a DMIR 2-10-2. Oh wonderful. Just what I don't need or want. A 2-10-2. And a DMIR to boot. But, what could I do? So I took the stupid loco and it sits in a box. I need to get the others out of the round house and run them to see what the other problems are with the Spectrums. As I recall, they started and stopped and started. They act like they are part of train sets where you might expect that. The one Spectrum that I like is a C&O 2-6-6-2. Never have had a problem with that one. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: Rich, Which Bachmann locos do you have that as you say "suck"? did you return any of them to Bachmann for your free repalcement? Send them to me and I will fix them right up for you. Sheldon
Which Bachmann locos do you have that as you say "suck"? did you return any of them to Bachmann for your free repalcement? Send them to me and I will fix them right up for you.
For starters, I had a C&O 4-8-2 Heavy Mountain. The copper fingers kept on getting tangled up in the driver wheels. The thing would always start and stop, intermittent power. So, I send it in for repairs to Bachmann. They call back and say that they no longer stock the parts so it is not repairable. Pick your free replacement. The only thing they had in stock for me to choose from was a DMIR 2-10-2. Oh wonderful. Just what I don't need or want. A 2-10-2. And a DMIR to boot. But, what could I do? So I took the stupid loco and it sits in a box.
I need to get the others out of the round house and run them to see what the other problems are with the Spectrums. As I recall, they started and stopped and started. They act like they are part of train sets where you might expect that.
The one Spectrum that I like is a C&O 2-6-6-2. Never have had a problem with that one.
A search of this forum will find a thread where I expained all my little Bachmann tune up tips - tips that make good locos into great locos.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, Which Bachmann locos do you have that as you say "suck"? did you return any of them to Bachmann for your free repalcement? Send them to me and I will fix them right up for you. Sheldon
Crandell,
I'm not in the "the hobby is dieing" crowd, but both from a business end and consumer/modeler/collector end it has changed, a lot in some ways.
Some of those changes have been great from my perspective, others not so much so. But one simple fact is that the hobby has become more diversified and by virtue of that more splintered - despite the desires of the "kumbaya" crowd.
I get DCC, in fact I use it quite a bit on various friends layouts. But it is not perfect and does not fit my goals.
Since none of these companies seem committed to long term servicing of these products, we the consumer will have to start viewing them as desposable and replaceable - not true back in the day, even with a $25 Athearn blue box diesel I know I could always get parts.
I have nine Spectrum Heavy Mountains, four 2-6-6-2's, eight 2-8-0's, two 4-6-0's and five 2-8-4's that I have converted to 2-8-2's - they all run great - for way less money than anything BLI sells.
OK, some Spectrum locos are known for some "issues" - the earlier N&W J and the earlier PRR K4 in particular - but the newest versions of those are fine and all can be made to run fine - and they don't cost anywhere near what BLI locos cost.
I don't have either of those, they don't fit my theme. I don't have the 2-10-2, it exceeds my wheelbase restrictions, and I don't need anymore drag freight locos anyway. But I have heard nothing but good about the Spectrum 2-10-2. And I am planning on getting an N&W J for a kit bashing project - when done it will be a streamlined, oil fired ATLANTIC CENTRAL 4-8-2.
So tell me what your Bachmann issues are, bet I can fix them - or tell you really EASY fixes.
I know, they don't make all those "flashy", famous locos - big boys and cab forwards and such.
Well I think the new EM-1 changes that a bit, at least in this part of the world.
I'm not bashing BLI products - other than the lack of DC versions - I'm bashing how they do business.
I understand the QC challenges these companies face, but BLI could do nothing for my mikados - Bachmann always steps up with replacements.
Sorry, but I am not going to jump on the 'Let's Bash BLI' wagon.
I own seven BLI steamers. 5 run flawlessly, and the two that didn't BLI fixed.
I own five Spectrum steamers and they all suck but one.
I own three Proto Heritage, and I loove all three. They are among my best steamers.
I am not interested in acquiring any more steam engines, but if I did, I would look to BLI first.
Sheldon, your observations suggest to me that I managed to enter the hobby at the tail end, or near to it, of a golden age of sorts. DCC was just a few years old and gaining strength (and I understand you have no need of it...just that a growing number have grown accustomed to it if they entered the hobby about the same time as I did). At the same time, BLI and Life Like were bringing some very nice steamers to market (Paragon and Heritage respectively), and the hobby in general was robust. Now, I'm not going to cross over the floor of parliament and join John's party (steady, Andre!!), because the hobby still looks to me to be on a pretty solid footing. But in respect of this topic, and with BLI comprising the bulk of my stable of locomotives, I can expect replacements to get scarce in the short term if I have problems. If you are correct, and some other entity will pop up with a virtual storefront and the same locomotives (plus or minus), then the hobby is as you say....going to carry on apace.
Crandell
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Which brings me to my second problem with them - PRICING GAMES. First we "announce" the new model, then we take pre-orders at or near retail price, then we sell 80% of the units produced at those prices, then we dump the rest dirt cheap. You may feel good about such a purchase - I don't. And I think it undermines the value of the product and the brand name in the long run.
Which brings me to my second problem with them - PRICING GAMES.
First we "announce" the new model, then we take pre-orders at or near retail price, then we sell 80% of the units produced at those prices, then we dump the rest dirt cheap. You may feel good about such a purchase - I don't. And I think it undermines the value of the product and the brand name in the long run.
Yeah, sorta reminiscent of what Walthers does in their monthly catalog, isn't it?
Ed
Atlantic Central,
Good grief, you told it like it is..................... As a retired business analyst, I've followed some of the companies you mentioned and "sad to say", you are pretty much right on.
Years ago it was more about the hobby than about greed and lawsuits. There certainly was competition, but pretty much everyone evolved into their own niche and there was certainly enough customers to go around. Todays competitions are certainly not friendly, and there are those that would delight in putting their peers out of buisness. Ha, and that goes for so many other business lines as well.
I have a number of BLI models, and am pretty pleased with them. Yes, I had one or two problems, but they resolved them and all is well. I understand BLI has been on a roller coaster since its start, and I for one hope they survive. But like you said, if they don't, someone will be stepping in to take their place sooner or later. In short, if the demand is there, the supply will eventually rise to it.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I have been is this hobby a long time, 40 plus years now. And had exposure to the business side of it very early on - my first hobby shop job was at age 14.
I can tell you it was never like this until recently. In fact, it was never like this until Bob Grubba, Mike Wolf and people like them got involved in it.
It use to be just the oposite. Athearn and MDC worked together to help each other tool and produce their products. They had a gentlemens agreement to not butt heads directly in the products they offered.
Athearn made HO trains for Lionel, Cox and others. MDC and Athearn sold their product unbuilt to small vendors line KarLine, BevBel and English's who offered less popular custom lettered versions.
Nobody was sueing anybody, over anything.
Today we can't even get those two mentioned above to stop fighting over who invented what - like Al Gore and the internet.
What many of you newer people don't get is it does not matter if BLI goes out of business. They don't own or make anytihng - they are just a distribution channel for a few China manufacturers. Someone else will take their place and that tooling will still produce models - maybe better models that are offered in more versions and marketed in a better way since it is clear BLI does not really have the capital to be in the manufacturing business - they are just in the import speculation business.
Athearn and Bachmann are in the import manufacturing business. Those companies both clearly have control of their source of supply, not the other way around like Broadway.
MTH may have enough money and control, but has no idea about the HO market, or is so arrogant he thinks he can reshape the market to suit himself. Good luck with that.
Over the years lots of companies have come and gone, and lots of products have been sold under a succession of names as that has happened. If BLI goes belly up tomorrow, in a year someone will be selling that stuff.
This hobby has changed, and that's fine, things change. But all these high tech, high dollar, RTR toys are not what got me interested (they did not exist 40 years ago) and don't interest me now - I like to build things.
BLI or MTH, I would not miss them one bit.
I've also only been to the BLI forums a few times. It's mostly because I only own one BLI product.
Although it's one of my best steam engines now, my Brass Hybrid Dreyfuss 4-6-4 had a lot of problems when I got it. It would be a shame if BLI went out of business (which I don't think they will), but a step up in the QC department would help them out I think.
_________________________________________________________________
I wish the hobby in the HO scale had not been so predatory or litigious over the short time I have been involved. My very first loco as an adult was the BLI NYC Hudson....loved it, and was fortunate to have it as far as I was concerned. But upon reading the documentation, there was an insert saying that due to a court case between QSI, the resident decoder maker, and MTH, BLI could not supply the locomotive with a decoder that uses BEMF. To this day, it still lurches to a start because it is the one engine I didn't bother to upgrade when QSI announced the upgrade chips in 2006.
Anyway, BLI has taken some very serious body blows since then. They are currently in litigation with MTH, and I have no clue where that stands....they are about 15-18 months into that one already. They lost several tooling sets for their best/most popular locomotives to MTH when the parent tooling company lost in litigation (do we see a pattern here) to MTH. BLI hasn't appeared at several major train shows, and now this? As I stated, I find it hard to be optimistic. I hope I can be called Chicken Little in time...I will happy abide by it.
I won't miss their forum, only went there twice. All it seemed to be was a complaint department on one hand and a love fest on the other for their products.
My BLI/PCM experiances have been very mixed.
I have one of their original run N&W Class A's - excellent loco right out of thebox - I love it.
An ABBA set of "stealth" F3's - also great.
Two Reading T1's, also from the "stealth" offering days, one was missing parts, they supplied, and both needed a little work to be perfect. - I'm happy.
Two USRA Heavy Mikado's - not so good. Two different runs, made in different factories, both had problems with drivers going out of quarter. BLI unable to supply the correct parts - I fixed them - by rebuilding them from the ground up like building a Bowser kit.
Overall not a good track record in my mind. Admittedly, I don't model the NYC or the PRR so much of what they have offered in steam is of no interest. And when it comes to diesels I don't need to pay their prices (I got the F3's on closeout - VERY CHEAP) when older Proto covers most everything my roster desires.
Quality issues aside - there are two problems with BLI that keep me away.
First - They can't make up their mind if they are interested in my business as a DC modeler or not. First all DCC/sound, then "stealth" option, then Blueline, than no Blueline, then a few few "stealth" offerings?
Even if we go by the latest MR survey, 53% of us still use DC - Athearn, Bachmann, Intermountain, Proto, Bowser/Stewart, and other still offer DC versions or non sound versions easily converted back to straight DC.
But BLI just can't decide. Which brings me to my second problem with them - PRICING GAMES.
After my first experiances with buying BLI, I decided never to pay more than about 60% of retail - If I can't find it for that price, I will do with out - ESPECIALLY since now I have to rewire most of what they offer.
I can't say if they are in trouble or not, but they are not on my future purchase radar at all. Seems to me their business model says they have been in trouble since the day they opened the doors - but what do I know, I only ran a train department in a hobby shop, worked in this business a decade or more, and have ran my own businesses for most of my 54 years.
Now I am interested in about 6 Bachmann B&O EM-1's........
I imagine their business is just fine.
They had several really big hits the last couple of years IMHO.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
I don't necessarily see any connection between taking down the forum and going out of business.
I have several BLI steamers as well as several of their diesels, and I count them among my favorites.
I have had a few problems with some of their steamers, in particular the ATSF 2-10-2 and 2-10-4. But those issues have been favorable resolved by their Customer Service department which is very responsive and attentive.
Does anyone have any credible information about the status of their business?
I wish I could be optimistic about this, but.................... And like Tom, it would be a great shame if they went under. I have enjoyed their steamers immensely, and found only very rare problems with QA. In fact, I would like to think that they don't have that much more of a QA problem than anyone importing stuff from high-faluting toy factories across the oceans. I see other companies getting slagged on other forums for the same problems.
Fact is, Matt could only get to the forum maybe once or twice a week to look in and answer questions. It needed more volume in posts of a different kind if it was to run well, and he couldn't give it the attention it needed.
Yea, that happened sometime between 8 AM and 1PM EST today. I enjoyed that forum. Although it didn't have much traffic at times, there was pertinent information exchanged.
A lot of recent postings seemed to center around the problems BLI has been having with QA. I hope that BLI will be able to eventually sort those things out. I'd hate to see them go under, as they have supplied a number of steam locomotives for my NYC roster: (1) Mikado, (2) Hudsons, (1) Mohawk, and (1) Niagara.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Green Just noticed the BLI forum has been closed. Kind of a shame considering they had a lot of valuable information specific to BLI products.
Just noticed the BLI forum has been closed. Kind of a shame considering they had a lot of valuable information specific to BLI products.
I think they were tired of it being used for problems and not general information about the hobby.
CZ