start on a flat 4x8 or just cross the Rubicon?

[Anonymous]

I'm getting into this again after a 20yr layoff. Starting with nothing (ex-wife has the entire old train stuff, let's not go there)

my question is whether to start with a simple 4x8 flat top with limted scenery options and track options or just jump right in and blaze away with a bigger layour with an open grid format . . .

I guess my more general quesiton to keep a discussion alive is;

what is the path you took to get to you present layout?

I guess almost everybody started at some point with a flat 4x8, but you basically had to scrap it to move to the next level right? How much heartbreak was that. (the most general comment is around what does it feel like to 'start over' with a new layout?).

As I look at track plans and ideas, I want to start bigger and better than a simple 4x8. I'd like 22" at least curve, I like track switching and many track options, it just seems hard in 4x8. On the other hand, jumping into an open grid layout seems to "lock me in" to the layout I pick. What if I change my mind in a year?

Oh well you get the gist of my question, comments? opinions? advice?

Thanks

[Isambard]

I'm interested in seeing the responses since I've been deliberating this same question for several years, having gotten back into the hobby after 45 or so years. I have big dreams of a mountain layout, spiral tunnels, steep grades and all that. I have the space, if only I can clear out years of accumulations. However I question how much time (as well as money) I can spend per day/month/year to preparatory activities eg room lighting, renovations), planning and constructing, as well as kit building, scenery etc. While I am thoroughly enjoy model railroading again I do want to continue enjoying some other aspects of life outside the hobby. As I look awed at those magnificent layouts in the pages of MR I have to ask myself "Do those people do anything else in their lives?" (I see the answer must be yes sometimes, in some cases they have wivesand children). Those layouts typically represent thousands of manhours of work (and womanhours too) over some number of years.
It would be interesting to see the results of a poll asking how much time do individuals spend per month/year on model railroading, including reading, researching, buying, building, running etc as individuals alone, in groups of friends or clubs, and how long have they been at it?

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by plane_crazy

I'm getting into this again after a 20yr layoff. Starting with nothing (ex-wife has the entire old train stuff, let's not go there)

my question is whether to start with a simple 4x8 flat top with limted scenery options and track options or just jump right in and blaze away with a bigger layour with an open grid format . . .

I guess my more general quesiton to keep a discussion alive is;

what is the path you took to get to you present layout?

I guess almost everybody started at some point with a flat 4x8, but you basically had to scrap it to move to the next level right? How much heartbreak was that. (the most general comment is around what does it feel like to 'start over' with a new layout?).

As I look at track plans and ideas, I want to start bigger and better than a simple 4x8. I'd like 22" at least curve, I like track switching and many track options, it just seems hard in 4x8. On the other hand, jumping into an open grid layout seems to "lock me in" to the layout I pick. What if I change my mind in a year?

Oh well you get the gist of my question, comments? opinions? advice?

Thanks

I'm in a similar situation, except that it's been nearly 40 years since I had a layout in my late teens, although I've been an "armchair" modeler all along. I recently came into possession of a useable basement, the fulfillment of all my teen-age fantasies (those that didn't include girls, anyhow).

I wonder if you aren't putting the cart before the horse, trying to decide on a layout size and a trackplan before you decide which facets of the hobby interest you most (e.g. several trips to Europe got me interested in passenger train switching, a couple of boyhood years in Mojave, CA, sparked my interest in helper operations).

Having had a 4x8, I don't want to repeat that. Not when I can have 36" radius curves and run 20 to 25 car trains. OTOH, designing and building a sizeable layout represents a considerable commitment of time and money and I want to make sure I'm satisfied with the overall concept before starting anything. I'm finding that now that I have the room to build what I want, the problem is defining the theme sufficiently well to be reasonably certain that it would provide ongoing interest. Actually, it's more than defining the theme since I've come up with several attractive options, it's deciding on the theme that stands the best chance of maintaining my interest while still being practical.

I suppose I could just start listing givens and druthers a la John Armstrong.

Givens, Druthers and the Women Who Love them:

Givens:
The basement is under a house in rural Maine, dry and relatiively easy to prepare for a layout. The location may make it problematic to gather an operating/construction crew. One of the mental discussions I'm having with myself is whether or not to design primarily for solo operation.

I'm an SP and Santa Fe fan by nature and upbringing (California). I'd like to incorporate both (perhaps a la John Signor in Great Model Railroads 2004 but in a time frame 10 -15 years earlier). However, I've also acqured some acquaintance and interest in New England railroading and the rather interesting series of junctions, interchanges and passenger operations characteristic of the region in the early 50's . Mikados are a lot more layout friendly than Cab-Forwards as well and New England style railroading probably is a better operational fit for me. Still, there's nothing like a GS-4 4-8-4 or a Santa Fe 3800 class 2-10-2.

That item immediately above is probably the biggest problem I'm having in deciding what to do, especially since I made the common mistake of gathering a rather eclectic collection of motive power that needs to be sold off to provide funds to procure appropriate equipment. Oh well, at least I'm not the first to do that and won't be the last.

Druthers:


Passenger train switching
Helper operations (although I could give this up for passenger train switching)
Moderate length passenger trains (not to exceed 6-7 cars)
Long freight trains (> 20 cars)
Way freight operation
Train frequency appropriate to a secondary main line


The Women Who Love Them:

Construction will be such that the first section built will be operable with "portable" staging yards at either end and construction will be "progressive" so that once the first area is built, the layout can provide operation while further construction moves forward.

Andre

P.S. Of course, I could always take up knitting, but then that beautiful basement would go to waste.

[Anonymous]

I'm getting back in after about 25 years. My last layout was 4x8 HO TYCO :) I started out this time with an "L" shape from 2 hollow core dorrs, becasue I already had them. But after much web surfung and asking a lot of questions, I'm going with a Shelf based "N" Scale layout. I get's me out of the 4x8 box and gives me a layout at 52" high. At that height it looks more realistic, and is easier on my already bad back. Currently it's (2) 10' x 2' sections arranged in an "L" I'm building it in such a way that allow for further expansion later of either end or the middle, and it is also removable which is important because right now I'm in a 2 bedroom apt, and I know it will be moved. I'm going with 1x3" benchwork, supported by Home Depot 18" brackets, topped off with 1" foam. On top of this I'm using Woodland Scenics Foam Grades and Risers. Theres my 2cents. You may want to build a simple door based layout to let you run trains and try out ideas, then progess to something more permanent and larger. Let us konw what you decide. There are a boatloat of good ideas on these boards. Many have gone before and have the scars and the trophies to show. Dave

[Anonymous]

After reading my last post , I must appoligize for many spelling errors, hey, it's late. Dave

[Anonymous]

I'm getting back into the hobby after a break of 8 years or so. I took the saw to my old 4x8 last weekend, now that the room where it was is cleaned out (but not until after I ran a few trains to make sure the old gear still works). Started building a U-shaped L-girder benchwork (7x9.5') last Saturday, and just put the finishing touches on it tonight. Next up is cutting the joists.

Fortunately, I built the original layout open-grid and screwed everything together, so I've been able to salvage all the wood, which is all 1x4s and 1/2" plywood top. The two long sides became the L-girders across the back wall, with 9" or so extensions to fill out the extra length. I cut the top in half to remove it, and it'll be cut up to become the base for my yard and/or staging tracks below the benchwork once I finish cleaning all the old roadbed and junk off it.

So yea, it was kinda tough to take the saw to the old layout, since I did put a couple of years work into it. But the prospect of a clean slate, longer mainline (my primary interest is watching trains run and pass each other, with a bit of local way-freight action), and the fact that I could reuse just about everything made it less painful. I just waited until I bought all the new wood I needed so I could start construction of the new benchwork as soon as the old was torn apart so I didn't have a whole lot of time to think about what I was doing.

[(-D]

---joe

[Anonymous]

Hey Plane crazy, [#welcome] welcome back into the hobby and welcome to this forum. I too was in the same boat as everyone else. Got back into the hobby after a couple years. I had kept my dad's 4x8 in the basement and when I got back in i decided to bring it out again. With the 4x8 out I ran trains and just had fun, but still trying out new things. Ii built a small yard and a small switching area. I found I stayed in the basement longer. Then I built and 4x2 and added a bridge to it. I would run passenger trains, tourists steam trains, and every kind of freight imaginable. What this did was give me a taste of everything that MRR had to offer.
When I was ready I expanded thee layout. What I did was linked two 4x8 by 2x4 to give me a donut shape. I added a yard and some switching. I operated it for a while wasn't happy then presto layout was expaned again. This was just essentially a larger form of the last one. I had about 95% of the track laid and decided I hated it. So now I'm building it over again. This time larger. Much larger.

On to how this pertains to you, and the most important part. EXPERIMENT. Start on a small scale then build up. That 4x8 can be turned into a part of a larget layout. If you learn you like to have larger yards like I do turn that 4x8 into a yard. Use Ez track to make changing things later on easier. Nail down stuff so tearing it up isn't a problem and don't be afraid to change things if you don't like it. Don't make things permanent until your 100% sure of it. Remember your perefect layout won't be built until you build many others. Happy Modeling

Andrew

[Hawks05]

at your age i'd say jump right in with the big layout. and it can always change as time goes on. you don't have to stick to one particular layout. me being a teenager and a high school student i only have a 4x8. plus i'll be going away to college in a year so i don't want anything real big until i get out of college, if i'm still interested. i better be, i've invested a ton of money into the hobby.

so, i'd say go big with your layout. and if you want to change something as time goes on you can. just build the benchwork then starting thinking of some ideas.

[Big_Boy_4005]

If you have been in the hobby for a while, even if you have been away, it seems pointless to start with a 4x8. If you have the space, and the time and money, just go for it. Model railroading is just like any other skill. Even if you haven't done it in a while, you don't go back to the very beginning. Plan a full project, and build in stages. But whatever you do, HAVE FUN!!!

[Anonymous]

My layout is about 12' x 13' with two three track staging, 2 ovels, one main yard, and three small towns. One town is at the end of a branch line. I use all eight or ten drive wheel steam locos. My trains are 8 to 13 cars long, THAT'S THE I LIKE THEM. I also use helper service as THAT'S THE WAY I LIKE IT. That's two eight wheeled locos with 8 to 13 cars.

This layout is for my enjoyment. Don't build a layout that is bigger then you can maintain. Train running is fun - not cleaning track or having to nudge the loco every ten feet. Get out of the chair and build. If it isn't right, don't fret just do it over, but when your in the mood. Get something running because that will keep up the interest. If your not sure about a project, think about it for a couple of days but keep running. Don't let the thinking and planning stall you from building.

In 50 years of modeling, I've never seen a layout that was built exactly like the drawing. Some have major changes and others have minor changes but they all had changes.

Don't worry if your locos and cars aren't all in the same time frame. Operate 1919 tonight and do 1990 tomorrow night. Run what you like.

I have a sign in my train room "If you don't like the manner in which these trains are operated, please notice the mistletoe attached to the owners shirt tail".

'Nuff said

Have a blessed day and remember SANTA FE ALL THE WAY

Bob

[fiatfan]

Hi, Jim

First, welcome back. I took the plunge about a year ago after having been away for about 15 years.

I have a 12X8 room in the basement and the first thing I did (after room preparations) was put some track down and run some trains back and forth. After finding out how amazingly well the new equipment runs, I couldn't wait to get more track down.

I don't have a track plan drawn up and probably never will. I dug out some old buildings and set them on the table and laid track to them. I built in some minor switching difficulties which requires me to move a car about 30 feet (actual measurement) to get the car from the yard to an industry whcih is three feet (again, actual measurement) from the yard.

I just took the door off the room last night so I can bring the table around the remainder of the room. I will put in more track to allow me to actually send a train to a destination rather than make up the train and then break it up and put the cars back in the yard. The trains will leave town to the left to get to a town on my right and vice versa for the other side.

As you can see, there is not a lot cast in concrete here. Just some general ideas on what I like to do and what I am doing to make it happen.

My advice to you would be (as someone menntioned above) is to put some track down and let the rest grow. It has worked very well for me. I realize many people like to plan everything out but if I spend too much time planning, I won't get anything done.

Whatever you decide, you've already made the most important decision! Welcome back!

Tom

[der5997]

Started with the 4x8. Next was a location move and a usable basement. So, grid benchwork after some reading about what to do. Didn't like the restrictions of cookie cutter layouts. (personal preferences here, don't want to start a war.) Next was another baseemnt with custom built curved wall, and holes in wall to an adjoining room. More grid benchwork and really sturdy L girder for a peninsula. The adjoining room had a suspended loop with a lift up section.
Now it's a shelf around what would be a bedroom in a normal person's home. [8D]

[BRAKIE]

Ya know the 4'x8' is a funny vermit..You can make a transporation system or a glorified train set loop.I have had only 3 such layouts over the years..My type of layout is the industrial switching layout or if I have the space a around the walls with a peninsula based on branch line or better still a short line..
Now,if one uses the space wisely on a 4x8 then he/she can have a transportation system base on a branch line or short line..I found that a 22" radius and #4 switches works quite well for these types of layouts..Of course one should use 4 axle units and nothing more then say a 60' car.Better of course would be 40' and 50' cars..
Scenery on a 4X 8 need not to be dull.Use a view block for depth and separation of sides.Use detailed buildings and scenes.You see you want to draw the viewers eyes away from the size of the layout by having the viewer focus on the details and scenes.You will be surprise how the eye can be fooled into thinking something is bigger then it is.
Now since you are experience in the hobby and if you have the room then
bypass the 4X8 and go to the size that fits your area.

[mondotrains]

Hi Jim,
I'm so glad you asked the question because I love telling my story.

I started with a 4' by 8' layout back in 1953, at the age of 5. I ran American Flyer trains around in a circle, over and over, until I eventually got bored.

Fast forward to 1994....just remarried, close to being downsized from my job, and looking for a hobby to fill my time. I built another 4' by 8' layout, this time in HO scale but within 9 months realized it was too limited. So, I added a yard attached to that 4 by 8 section, then added some staging, and after a couple of years, realized I had missed many opportunites. I had a single-track mainline but wanted a double-track main. My sidings were generally too short which made switching difficult. I wanted a larger yard and a turntable, which my layout couldn't accommodate. I had also begun with Atlas on-top-of-the-table switch motors and had all the block controls, again made by Atlas, on one panel. I had read about Tortoise switch motors which mount under the table and also wanted to have control panels located strategically around the layout, with block controls and toggle switches handy at the various towns.

I then met some guys with dozens of years in the hobby and one of them took a scale diagram of my train room, which I drew on graph paper, and a list of my "wants", and came up with a great new plan. Therefore, the best advice I can give you is to find someone like I did and begin designing your layout. It's no different than sitting down with an architect when designing a new house. There are infinite possibilities and he/she needs to know your requirements (and dreams) so that they can be worked into the design. Of course, like a home, you may have to compromise somewhere but that's okay. As long as you meet most of your desires.

As far as worrying about the future and whether that new layout will be what you want or will you change your mind and have to start over, I'm going to get philosophical on you.
Remember.....it's the journey, not the end result. What I mean by that is that I'm having tons of fun building structures, adding scenery, weathering rolling stock, etc. The great thing about this hobby is that there are so many different things to do. If some time down the road, I either get tired of this layout or it becomes obsolete relative to my wants, I will start over again. It was not very painful to tear up the last layout because I knew I was going to build a much better one. When you think about it, the only thing that gets "thrown away" is the benchwork, and even much of that can be salvaged, like the legs and L-girders. I literally ripped up my 18' by 16' layout in about 3 days and had my new benchwork up in another 4-5 days. Once the track laying began, I completely forgot about what I had discarded. And I can tell you that once I had the mainline completed, and was watching passenger trains run in one direction and a freight going by them in the other, I never looked back.

As much as I enjoy my current layout, we may be building a new house soon. You can bet your life that the new plan is already in my head. It will have ALL the attributes of my current layout but this time, with more space planned, my staging will be expanded and I will make sure that NO track is difficult to access. I'm tired of worrying that one of those turnouts that's inside a tunnel might develop problems.

Welcome back to the hobby and enjoy the "journey".

Mondo

[IRONROOSTER]

like most, I started with a 4x8. In the spare bedroom, it lasted until my first child was born. Over the next few years due to moves I had a 6 x 6.5, 8 x 10, 4 x 8. About ten years ago I got a room in the basement 11 x 18 which has a layout I'm currently building. One advantage of having several layouts is that I was able to decide what I wanted in a layout.

If you're not very sure what you want, I would start small. One approach would be to get two 4x8 sheets of plywood and have the lumber yard cut them down the middle into 2x8. Arrange them so that they form an 8 x 12 layout. This will allow you to build a layout with wide curves, a yard, and several spurs. Then run some trains and see what you like doing. With table top you can rearrange the track easily.

Enjoy
Paul

[randybc2003]

Re-start w/ a 4x8. If you have been out of the hoby for 20-40 years there have been some changes. Try one of the MR project RRs. Try the new techniques. (Stacked Styrafoam, even sculptamold vs plaster on screen or hardshell. New Control systems, etc.

[darth9x9]

I would recommend starting with a 4x8. Many of the 4x8 track plans I have seen in the last few years are meant to be expanded as skills/time/space permit. Kalmbach has a few books dedicated to such track plans.

[Anonymous]

I would agree with starting with the 4X8. Maybe keep in mind when design a track plan to allow for expansion. Maybe a spur the ends at one end of the layout. That way you can experiment techniques and get good at them or make those inevitable mistakes which would be confined to 4X8 feet instead of more. With the spur you could add more bench work and use the spur as a type of interchange. Just a thought.


Jeremy

[Don Gibson]

ALL LAYOUTS:
need a track plan that fit's within one's room limitations
need a track plan that' fit's within one's budget limitations
need a track plan that fit's within one's construction skills
need equipment that integrates within the track limitations.

For example: The common 4 X 8 needs an additional 3' on all sides to walk around to operate, as does a Ping pong table, and a Pool table. Do you have 10 X 14 ?
If not, a 1.5' or 2' X 8' industrial switching or N gauge layout can be even more fun.

[johncolley]

I am in a simlar position except I built a great operational layout in too small a space, so I have redifined what I want and am in the process of tearing it out. I suggest visiting as many club and home layouts as you can to see what you like, and what you don't like. I want big curves (48" to 72" radius) and turnouts #10's and #8's)for my 14 car streamliner and 60+car freight. So I am turning to Free-mo modules, plywood frames and a 2" foam deck. Even an 8 ft. module is light enough for one person to handle, work on, and set up.

[CNJ831]

One of the biggest mistakes you can make in this hobby as a newbie (or a returnie) is to attempt a layout far beyond the scope of your current skills and knowledge. I've seen more grandeous layouts started, then abandoned, by beginners than I'd care to count.

Start with something managable in size to practice or reestablish your modeling skills on. It's also quite easy to design a simple trackplan that can be expanded later on to much larger dimensions if you are pleased with your initial results.

CNJ831