Fast Clock - Am I missing something here?

[bearman]

I am trying to figure out the fast clock and so far I have come up with the following simplified hypothetical:

HO mainline = 60 ft

Real mainline = 50 miles

So, HO:Real = 1.20 ft/mile

Real velocity = 55 mph

Real time = 0.91 hr

So, at a 1:1 clock ratio HO velocity = 66 ft/hr or 13.2 in/min

And at a fast clock of 3:1 then the HO velocity would be 39.6 in/min with total actual time for the 60 ft at 18.18 minutes.

Is this correct or am I missing something?

In this hypothetical the train goes starts at the beginning and goes 50 miles without any stops, switching etc.

 

 

 

 

[ChadLRyan]

As a Locomotive & rolling stock modeller, I have never understood the term fast clock!

Yeah, I figure it means a a timeline that is faster than real life that can be accomplished in a 'set' 'model railroading' session.

I have access to many clocks, but like you-all, I have no idea what to program into such a clock.

This is one of those "in the know" things like newer  TV commercials, that assume we already have been educated:     up-on,    & are masters-at,     that we 'should know all about' since birth...   

Sorry I missed that bus, even the short bus..

I really hope to learn about 'Klokkenschpiels' here in this thread, after all, I'm just a few miles from the Bily Clock Museum, & it is really close to ICE/CP rails in a daytrip jaunt... 

Help us, who are not 'UP' on 'fast clocks'...        

[gandydancer19]

You lost me with your calculations. 

An HO scale mile is 60 point something ft. long.  So you have a mileage ratio of 50 to 1.  I don't think that you can base a fast clock ratio based on those numbers alone.

I don't think you can turn your one actual mile of track into 50 miles with a fast clock.  It seems to me that it would result in a 50:1 ratio.  But I am not that knowledgeable about picking fast clock ratios.

What may work better is if you had a timetable for the RR you are modeling, and it had the two towns listed in it, and it told you how long it took between the towns.  (Arrival and departure times)  Then you could time your train from one town to the next and figure it out.

Tony Koester talks about exactly this in the January 2009 issue of MR, pg. 77.  (I just happened to see the article today as I was looking through it.)  It may be worth your wild getting the issue.

[bearman]

I have that issue, and I will check it out.

[Owendubya]

as i unerstand it, a fastclock takes realtime and  speeds it up so that in operations a run of an hour between stations with a 4:1 fast clock would take 15 min. therefor a 12 hour day woul take 3 hrs. the idea is to move cars realisticly within practical time constraints.

[bearman]

As for my calculations, you are making my point about where I think I am confused.  If I have a 60 ft mainline and that 60 ft represents the 50 miles then a real train going 55 mph would take 0.91 hours to get from Point A to Point B.  Therefore, it would take an HO train at a velocity of 13 in/min to go the entire 60 ft in 0.91 hrs.  Now, if I speeded it up to a 3:1 fast clock, the HO velocity would be 13*3 or 39 in/min and it would take about 18 minutes to go 60 ft.   It is the HO 1:87.1 scale that is throwing my off, hence this thread.  As I indicated, I will check out that article.

[Jamis]

I'll take a stab at this question.  A fast clock for model railroading is a way for the operator to make the mainline runs, or switching moves, "seem" more realistic.  Part if this "fast clock" environment is to make the distance between stations or terminals "seem" longer by taking more time (according to the clock). The ratio of the fast clock doesn't really equate to scale miles or distances.  Even switching moves on a model railroad take less time than on the prototype.  Fast clock operations are most used where the layout is run by timetable or train orders.  This is especially true where there are multiple operators running trains and switching jobs.  The modeler will pick a clock ratio that best suits the size of the layout, the amount of traffic being run, and the number of yard jobs. 

For example, on the switching layout I am working on. there is no timetable, nor multiple trains running.  My operation is based on the size of a single train (5 cars) , the time it takes to switch that train, return to the yard, and the fact that the prototype took an entire shift to do the work.  Therefore, each turn on my layout will take 8 scale hours.  It takes about an actual hour to work the 5 car train consist, so If I were to use a fast clock, I'd use an 8:1 ratio.

[bearman]

That is where I am coming from Owen.

[cuyama]

Fast clocks don't really have anything to do with the speed the model trains actually  run.  That computation is confusing and not really applicable.

Instead, Fast Clocks are intended to make it seem that it is taking longer for the trains to run by speeding up only the clock on the wall. Instead of 5 real minutes to run from one end of the layout to the other, a 6:1 fast clock helps us pretend that it is actually taking 30 minutes. But the model train should run at the same speed relative to its scale environment, Fast Clock or not.

This really only matters, IMHO, in mainline running to a timetable. (But I'm a documented model railroad Fast Clock skeptic). Model switching takes relatively longer than model mainline running, so most people don't bother with Fast Clocks for switching layouts.

Some people like Fast Clocks. I personally don't. I have had plenty of time pressure elsewhere in my life. And since my favorite model railroad operating jobs are switching and yard jobs, a Fast Clock really only adds time stress for me when I personally would rather do the job "right" by thinking about where crewmen would be standing and such.

Byron

[bearman]

Byron...have checked out your site more than once, lots of great information, and I am aware of your opinion.  I do not plan on operating my layout on a fast clock.  I am just trying to get an idea as to how fast to run a train so that it moves at a reasonable pace without taking 1 minute to make a complete circuit  BTW my layout mainline is a little under 55 ft.  With several switching locations along the way I am trying to get a sense about how long, in real time, a full session could last when two trains are running and one has to enter a siding.  This may not make sense to you, but I it does to me.

[BobH13]

There's more to the calculation.  A full session can last as long or as little as you desire. Lots of it depends on the "work" the train/s are intended to do and how fast you want to do it..  Fast clock time is an arbritary number.  You are free to apply any clock time you want to suit your purpose. 

We can compress physical sizes but not time, its a constant. 

 

[bearman]

Only the speed of light is a constant, I think.

[jmbjmb]

Back in the "day" people would pick a simple ratio.  12:1 was often used.  This fit a 24 hour day into a 2 hours ops session that was convienent for folks.  It also resulted in a 5 foot "smile" which was a term for short mile or something like that.  That means your 60 foot main line was 12 smiles long.  Then you would develop a timetable based on that distance.  Over the last 30 years or so the as layouts have gotten larger and people have gotten more interested in prototype paperwork, the ratio has dropped to 8, 6, or 4 to 1.  Some folks even operate 1:1. 

In my opinion the real advantage to a fast clock was when scheduling and operating your railroad, folks could be told to meet at 12:05 on the fast clock rather than having to time things on the second hand on a real clock.  For a small one  person railroad that operates a shift as "run until done," it may not make as much sense.  I don't use one on my current single train branch line.

[tomikawaTT]

Frank Ellison made the first "Fast Clock," by the simple expedient of removing the hour hand from an ordinary wall clock.  That gave him a default 12:1 ratio.  Later clock-modifiers came up with a number of other ratios, some more useful than others.

What confuses people is that the scale speed of their train is NOT affected by use of a fast clock.  Track speed 60 (scale) miles per hour is still just a smidge over one (full scale) foot per second in HO.  To make that work with a hypothetical mainline 60 miles long which is actually only 60 feet long, the 'smiles' would be a foot apart and the train would use a fast-time ratio of 60:1 to cover that 60 dreamland miles in an hour one real minute long.

A real world example - Tomikawa to Haruyama on my layout.  The prototype timetable gives a time between those stations, 7.5 kilometers apart, of nine minutes.  The 1:80 scale reduction of the distance is almost 94 meters (close enough to 300 feet as doesn't matter)  The actual distance is just under 19 meters, or 1:5 the proper scale distance.  The start-to-stop speed is 50kph, and maximum track speed is 70 kph.  If I use a 5:1 fast time clock and operate at proper scale speed I will use up 1.8 real minutes on the run, and the train will appear to be moving at an appropriate speed.  If I used 'real' time the start-to-stop scale speed for a nine minute run would be 10kph - slow even for a Shay!

'Scale time" and a fast clock are only appropriate if you are operating to a timetable.  For any other operating mode, just run your train at an appropriate scale speed and put time on disregard.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - operating TTTO 24/30)

[Weighmaster]

I don't need a fast clock.  I have discovered since retiring that about eight hours have mysteriously disappeared from each and every day (not counting naps)...Gary

[trainsBuddy]

My quick 2c on the original question. I've never used fast clock, but in a nutshell, fast clock only applies to the one dimension - time. It does not affect the other aspects, such as speed. The point of fast clock is to simulate 8 hours in say 2 hours operating session ( 4:1 ratio, or 15 minutes real time for each hour simulated time). However, it's not the same as hitting fast forward on a VHS tape and watching everything happen faster. Your trains still going at the prototypical scale speed, not flying at 4 x speed. So while you are simulating faster clock, your still stay with "real-time" scale speed. The point of this is that instead of saying you got from station A to station B in 15 minutes, you'll say it took you an "hour".

If you want everything be fast, than you'll have to soup up your diesels to run at 200m/h scale speed instead of 50m/h. But that's not all; you'll have to run around the layout 4 times as fast too, yet pretend that you are casually walking

 

[ChadLRyan]

Yeah, perhaps that is why I can't understand it, in the literal sence.. Time & scale distance is an incontraversial conundrum withougtout a quantative soloution in my present sense.. 

Thanks for the open discussion, I have learned quite a bit from the examples & it does shed light on the concept. Thanks, appreciate it!

[wp8thsub]

One concept that is often missing when discussing a fast clock is that it's perhaps best as a scheduling tool more than an attempt to speed up operations.  If a train working at a realistic pace takes a real-time hour to do its work, and the fast clock is set at 3:1, the schedule should allow at least 3 fast hours.  The way  I look at it on my own layout is that the fast clock adds some perception of time passage for mainline runs, and provides a convenient means for yard crews to judge call times for either building trains or expecting arrivals (i.e. the session may not always start at the same time on the actual clock, but the schedule can be built around the fast clock that can start running with the same time at the beginning of each session).  It shouldn't exist to induce stress or convince operators to run faster.  High ratios like 12:1 start to get pretty silly in my opinion, and the more I run on various layouts the more I think 3:1 or maybe 4:1 is as fast as the ratio can get before it becomes a bit too hard to suspend disbelief.

[BobH13]

FYI , I do know that time's not really a constant.. but in our world, for all practicle purposes, it is :)

[ratled]

 Bear the fast clock is more for operational based sessions/running of trains as already mentioned.  I think you stated your real objective in "I am just trying to get an idea as to how fast to run a train so that it moves at a reasonable pace without taking 1 minute to make a complete circuit"

There is a worthy read by Joe Fugate http://siskiyourailfan.net/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?2337.0    that has this chart in it

Using 50' box cars, pick a point on the RR and see how many cars go past that point in 3 seconds

5.5 cars = 60 mph

4.5 cars = 50 mph

3.5 cars = 40 mph

2.5 cars = 30 mph

1.5 cars = 20 mph

1 car     =  10 mph

0.5 car =    5 mph

Not rocket science accurate but will get you close enough

There is another worthy read that also has a good chart here http://www.gatewaynmra.org/designops.htm

There are other formulas out there too but they all meet the same objective.  Find one you like and make it work for your RR.

 Also, don't confuse these with the term Smiles (Scale Miles). It is a similar thing but not the same animal for what it sounds like you are looking for.

I hope this helps

ratled

[cv_acr]

ChadLRyan

Yeah, perhaps that is why I can't understand it, in the literal sence.. Time & scale distance is an incontraversial conundrum withougtout a quantative soloution in my present sense.. 

Think of it like Fahrenheit and Celsius, or meters and feet. Both measure the same thing (temperature or distance) just using different scales.

A fast clock doesn't make your operations faster, it just measures the time on a different scale.

For people who complain about the fast clock making things rushed, the clock is not the problem, the problem is with your scheduling. If your clock rate is 4:1, and it takes 15 real minutes to do something, then you need to schedule at least a fast-hour (4 x 15min) to do that activity. You schedule the same amount of time, just measured on a different scale.

All our scales for measuring things such as time and distance are all essentially arbitrary anyway. Minutes and hours only have meaning because some time long ago we all agreed what length of passage of time constitutes an "hour".

[trainnut1250]

While opinions about fast clocks do vary, all the layouts I operate on (including my own) use them. 

Clocks/time are essential for using a schedule.  If the passenger train cant leave the station before 10 AM, it means something very specific to that train and other trains on the railroad.  If there is a meet at 11:30 it means something to the trains involved and to other trains in the area.  Without the clock, this type of chess game wouldn't be possible.  Most operating layouts do spend a lot of time fine tuning schedules so that tasks such as switching have enough time to work and feel comfortable for the operators.

Whether you need a fast clock for this is up to you.  I find that real time gets pretty silly as well in that a train may wait in the station 4 minutes of real time rather that say 15 minutes of fast time.  15 minutes just feels more realistic to me......Fast clocks also impart a sense of the day passing...it gets to be afternoon in just an hour and a half rather than all day...for me this is a subtle but noticeable change (even if it is artificial) in the way the session feels as the "fast day" unfolds

Check out discussions of Time table and train order operations (google or search here) for a more thorough understanding of the ideas involved....

Guy

[bearman]

ratled

 Bear the fast clock is more for operational based sessions/running of trains as already mentioned.  I think you stated your real objective in "I am just trying to get an idea as to how fast to run a train so that it moves at a reasonable pace without taking 1 minute to make a complete circuit"

 

Bingo! I thought the fast clock was the basis for what I was trying to get at, which is why I framed the post as a fast clock post.  Thanks for the links, I will follow up and thanks everyone else for your comments. 

[rghammill]

Think of a fast clock as scaling time in relation to a railroad timetable. It's primary use is to help maintain a schedule between trains. I've operated both with and without. On those without, we basically have a sequence of trains that will run in the session, and the dispatcher (usually the owner), decides when each train will run.

The fast clock doesn't typically have a direct relation to speed or distance. In fact, you would have to do a lot of planning before building your layout if it were. In most cases, not only are distances shorter between towns on a model railroad, the amount of compression is inconsistent. For example, you might have three towns, each spaced 20' apart. But on the prototype, the actual distance might be 8 miles between the first two, and 12 between the second two. If the clock was related to distance, then you'd have to vary the speed because the ratio between modeled and prototype compression is different.

There are several factors that make a fast clock desirable.

• We don't have prototypical distances between towns
• We don't run at prototypical mainline speeds
• We want to run more of a prototype day's worth of trains in a shorter period.
• We want the schedule to relate to time in a similar manner to the prototype.

There are other reasons, but that's sufficient for the discussion.

Even though our mainline trains typically run at much lower speeds, our distances are compressed more. Thus, we need to compress time to some degree to help maintain schedules. In most cases, we're only talking a few to maybe a dozen towns. So this aspect isn't as noticeable as the next.

The fast clock reduces the time between trains. We all come to an ops session together, and want to run trains together. Passenger trains on the area I model are primarily commuter. There are a few in one direction in the morning, two that come through four hours later at about noon, then several in the opposite direction in the evening. The four hour waits for a train to run in the meantime are only an hour  using a 4:1 fast clock. Assuming the passenger train takes 5-15 real minutes to run, and they run a scheduled freight that takes another 15+ minutes to run, there isn't a lot of waiting around.

Another statement that is often made is that switching doesn't scale. In other words, it takes the same amount of real time whether you run a fast clock or not. While it's certainly true that we don't want to speed up the switching along with the clock (in fact, most of us still do it much faster than the prototype), we typically model fewer industries, a much fewer cars than the prototype. Again, on the prototype it wasn't unusual in my place and time for the local freight to have 30 cars and it would take 12 hours to run the day's work.].

On most model railroads, 30 cars is a respectable through freight. On a model railroad, a 12 car local might take most of the session to run. This matches the prototype well because while the actual work takes the same amount of real time, the amount of work is less than the prototype, so the clock makes sense. A local freight also gets the same benefits as other trains when running between towns.

Another major factor comes into play operating in the Timetable and Train Order era. Trains are typically required to clear the mainline for first class trains for a period of time (say, 15 minutes), before the first class train is scheduled to leave the prior station. A local freight may be given orders to work a certain section of track, but they must know the schedule, and pay attention to the clock, so they can take a siding at the correct time, and then wait for the scheduled train to pass.

The fast clock shouldn't really add pressure to the session. It's a tool to help maintain the order of trains. If you always feel that you are unable to meet the schedules then you probably need to reduce the ratio of the fast clock. 

All of this adds interest and more prototypical operation is possible because of the fast clock.

So the fast clock won't have a direct relationship to distance or speed, although you may want to identify a good speed to run passenger trains between your towns to maintain the schedule. But it's primarily designed for the bigger picture of how the work relates to a day's work.

Randy

[wjstix]

One thing to keep in mind is the fast clock idea developed back in the early days of the hobby. Back in outside-third-rail O scale days, it was pretty hard to get trains to run reliably at slow speeds. On large club layouts you rarely saw wayfreights or a lot of yard switching. It was mainly running mainline passenger and freight trains to a timetable.

To make up a timetable using a regular clock, it often got down to having trains scheduled to leave at say 7:47:15pm (15 seconds after 7:47PM) and run to the next station - which was supposed to be many miles away, but only took 60 seconds to get to. The train might end up doing it's entire run in say 10 minutes.

Using a fast clock made it easier to schedule, because you could use whole minutes,  and made it 'seem' to take a longer more realistic time. Using a 12:1 fast time clock meant the train's first stop wasn't one minute after leaving the starting point, but 12, and the entire run took one hour, not 10 minutes.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

When I was a kid making a fast clock was simple. Remove the hour hand from a clock and use the minute and second hands for hours and minutes. Not that simple anymore.

[BroadwayLion]

There is no way the LION could possibly use a fast clock on his layout.

The layout operates strictly on 1:1 time. LION stands in the tower with his TRAIN REGISTER, and dispatches the trains according to these requirements. About one train out of the terminal every five minutes. [The LION'S trains are automated, and will run the layout at their programed times and will return to the terminal about 20 minutes later] Yes the real Broadway Line on the NYCT is much longer, and it takes more than an hour for a train to run its circuit, but like the LION, trains leave and return to the terminal on a five minute headway.

Now the LION is forced to admit to you that he has NEVER run the railroad's 24 hour schedule, no, not even once. But once I have finished setting up the last two trains for automated service, I will indeed give it a try. There are "Pause Buttons" all around the layout, I can stop the action to fix derailments, or even to go to bed and come back another time. The pause button stops all of the trains, it stops the time and the STANDARD CLOCK.  So I can pick up exactly where I left off. For all I know it could take me a month to run the REGISTER even once.

To be honest, it is just more fun to simply run the trains!

ROAR

[andrechapelon]

Whether you need a fast clock for this is up to you.  I find that real time gets pretty silly as well in that a train may wait in the station 4 minutes of real time rather that say 15 minutes of fast time.  15 minutes just feels more realistic to me......Fast clocks also impart a sense of the day passing...it gets to be afternoon in just an hour and a half rather than all day...for me this is a subtle but noticeable change (even if it is artificial) in the way the session feels as the "fast day" unfolds

Saw your presentation on the Willoughby line at the LDSIG/OPSIG meet at Harry's Hofbrau in San Jose this last Saturday. Now I can put a face to your screen name. Neat layout, BTW.

Having ridden trains in both the UK and Continental Europe, 4 real minutes is actually plenty of time for a passenger stop. However, if you're the passenger, you'd better be on the platform when the train pulls in. Even if you're not, you probably only have to wait an hour for the next train going to your destination.

I have a copy of a 1955 SP employee timetable for the Los Angeles Division. It only  shows scheduled departure times at intermediat locations rather than arrival/departure times as a public timetable would for passenger trains. Train #98, the eastbound Daylight is scheduled to depart Burbank Junction at 4:32 PM and Glendale at 4:42. The mileage between Burbank Junction and Glendale is 5.5 miles.  I do recall, as a kid, seeing #98 arrive at Glendale. From what I remember, the arrival of #98 was pretty lively and it wasn't stopped for more than 2-3 minutes before whistling off for LAUPT. It's 5.7 miles from Glendale to LAUPT and #98 was slotted to arrive LA at 5 P.M.  Of course, Glendale's a bit special, I suppose since no passengers would entrain at Glendale for LA nor detrain if arriving on #99 from LA. Perhaps a better example would be #2, the eastbound Sunset Limited, which was allotted a 4 minute stop at Colton, arriving at 9:20 PM according the page showing the Pomona Sub and a departure time of 9:24 on the Beaumont Sub.  The Golden State also shows a 4 minute station stop at Colton.  Trains #6 & 40 (Argonaut and Imperial) were allotted 7 minutes, but both those trains had head end work.  #6 had 10 minutes at Indio and #40 had 14.

Passenger train stop times can vary all over the place. #'s 98/99 made stops in Salinas as did the Coast Mail #'s 90/91. The Daylight stop was just to detrain/entrain passengers. The Coast Mail would have done considerable work at Salinas, which could involve actually picking up or dropping off cars and could take 1/2 hour or more. I rode the Coast Starlight from LA a few months ago. I barely had time to walk from my coach to the bus stop in front of the Salinas station before the train started moving again.

I wish I had a 1950's employee TT (or even public one for that matter) for the Coast Division. The Daylight, Lark and Coast Mail all had switching done in San Jose and sections went to Oakland. It also doesn't require a busy station for passenger train switching. The San Joaquin Daylight had a Sacramento section, which was switched in/out at Lathrop (basically in the middle of nowhere back then).

I'm a regular operator on a layout that doesn't use fast clocks. We essentially run a sequence of trains for a 2 1/2 hour op session. We tried TT&TO, but the layout's not big enough to make that realistic. Passenger trains are run, but there's no switching. All station stops are 3 real minutes. If you're running the Del Monte from Pacific Grove to San Jose (staging), there are 5 station stops (Monterey, Ord, Castroville, Watsonville Jct and Gilroy.). It can take 30 actual minutes to complete the "schedule".  The layout's a twice around oval with a branch (Monterey Branch). It's about 2 scale miles from PG to San Jose (it's about 80 miles in the real world).

Local freight jobs generally take about 1 1/2-2 hours to complete depending on the work to be done. Given the limitations of space on a model railroad, this isn't bad considering the total length of the session. A fast clock wouldn't really add anything to the operation. The really interesting jobs are yardmaster, dispatcher and local freight crew. While track warrants are time stamped, it's just for reference. In any case, we're using warrants to run a railroad that was actually run by TT&TO back in the era we focus on.

It's almost impossible to set up a meet on the layout. I managed to do it once, but only because the Del Monte had 9 actual minutes worth of station stops before it would run the risk of a cornfield meet with the Ord Turn. Even then, the Ord Turn only managed to make it from Watsonville Jct to the east switch at Elkhorn.  The west switch at Elkhorn is about 5 feet from Watsonville Jct yard limits (where the Ord Turn originates) and the Elkhorn siding has a capacity of 10 cars plus a pair of GP's or F's.

I can see that a fast clock might be useful in some circumstances, but the lack of one certainly doesn't detract from the fun, especially when the emphasis is on local freights and the layout is too small to support TT&TO.

 

Andre

 

[hardcoalcase]

I certainly see the the fun and challenge in running against a timetable, so unless one has a loooong mainline, a fast clock makes sense. 

For me, I think the concept of "sequence scheduling" is a good place to start.  This way, trains are run according to a defined order, not a scheduled time.

Maybe I'll take up a fast clock after I retire!

Jim