Passenger train dilemma: your opinions please.

[hobo9941]

I run whatever trains I want, from various eras, and security keeps out the rivet counters.

[Juniatha]

Hi folks

 

Since you're still ventilating all sorts of possibilities – here's a suggestion that may sound outlandish , slightly , yet I invite you to read to the end - you might be surprised :

Reset your mind for a trip to Europe for this , have Scotty beam you to a city to which more than any other the Pink Floyd monumental music piece applied : 'The Wall' - or it's coming down actually .  

Once The Wall had come down , it wasn't before long extensive revamping and rebuilding started on Berlin's old Stadtbahn that had so far remained much as the former Prussian State Railways had built it before the turn of the century – the former turn of the century , I mean .  Now , with all the up-grading , realigning and making new , electrification came upon the Stadtbahn , spanning over what old tracks of the Reichsbahn had still remained and with wires under tension , soon there appeared an all new white .. uhm .. giant snake-like something of a train sporting a downward pointed nose and a pinky-red stripe that formed kind of a smiling mouth around the front .   It was an ICE (DB for InterCityExpress) that had ventured into the re-united city to introduce modern high speed rail , if slowed by existing worn jointed tracks , sneaking it's way over aching-old switch work alongside Charlottenburg station .   I was a teenager back then and used to talk quite frankly or straight-from-the-shoulder – if I were to try and repeat my comment when I first saw this unspeakable white .. uhm .. giant spe******** the posting would simply go *beep* *beep* *beeeeeeeeeeeeeee…* .  Next time I saw one at platform one in Zoo (Zoologischer Garten , main station of former West-Berlin) .  

That was a time when at the East Side on many weekends there were usually one or two of the notorious 52-80 class Decapods of nine lives running some regular passenger trains and some steam specials would even travel the Stadtbahn full length from East to West , stopping at Zoo along the way – plus there were several ‘Plan-Dampf’ events calling Pacifics to run regular express trains to schedule between Berlin and the former West – as for power it didn’t make any noticeable difference if a regular 132 class Co-Co diesel was up front or one of the Pacifics that DR had kept in full running condition as ‘traditional power’.   However , while these Pacifics were specially ‘preserved engines’ the last few of 52-80 class engines in (East-)Berlin were remnants of regular steam and for some years seemed to deny to abdicate – so , the unthinkable happened :  in preparing for merger of DR and DB , the latter – after having extinct steam once and for all thirteen years ago – got some steam locomotives back on the roster and duly renumbered them into their system as '052' class , a somewhat tongue-in-cheek choice steam fans soon argued :  this had formerly been renumbering class for DB class 50 of 2xxx serial numbers – i e not 52 class engines .  As it was , only very few engines actually got new number plates , for the rest of the lot the order was simply ignored .

One evening , the unspeakable had happened and renewed bright lamps of Zoo train hall shed light on an encounter of the strange kind : an ICE standing at the platform with a 52-80 having come to a halt right across to its head end , returning from a day’s tour that was to finish with an all-length trip over the Stadtbahn .   It was like Yesterday had met Tomorrow , skipping Presence altogether .   In turning to the somewhat unreal white wonder , the slightly absurd situation prompted me to comment like : “Well , if it won’t start for some obscure electrical defect , a 52 can always hook up and tow it away !”   There was some discussion about actual probability and it was finally agreed it should be possible , after all couplings were fully standardized :  the white Virtual could have been towed by a 52 .   There was some laughter and bright smiles on people’s faces looking at the quietly humming ICE across and the warm , simmering 52 next to us .   That tells you what a hopeless steam partisan I was and why I better don’t start modeling :

If some electric high speed network presently discussed will ever come to be realized in America , I might propose a rare scene such as this :  UP’s lively spirit 844 coming to rescue , taking an immobilized latest craze Bombardier Amtrak silver stream line train set over the mainline – not quite as fast , yet reliably sure enough .

 

Regards

        Juniatha

 

[CP guy in TX]

Everybody NEEDS at leat one steamer on their layout :-), even if it's just on static display in a park.

Honestly, there'd nothing like a steam engine to bring a railroad to life. Along with the train rolling, you get the bonus of side rods moving and all that monkey motion of the valve gear movement...

[riogrande5761]

I'm think Jim Griffin had to fabricate the trucks too.  Never seen them in HO but could be wrong.

I deal with the problem by modeling the day to day operations of the D&RGW from the mid-60's to about 1990 (minus the ski train).  I can fairly accurately model the regular passenger operations via the California Zephyr (until 1970), the Rio Grande Zephyr (until 1983) and the Amtrak California Zephyr after 1983.  That can be done with Broadway Limited CZ passenger cars and Walthers Superliner I cars.  I use a brass PCC Pullman Standard combine for the RGZ combine and Intermountain sells the transition Ex-Elcapitan bi-level cars for Amtrak era.

[Flying switch56]

riogrande5761

Regarding the ski train from Denver to Winter Park...  it was the ex-Northern Pacific Heavyweights that ran from the 1960's to 1988.  In 1988 the Tempo cars were acquired from Canada to re-outfit the ski train going forward.  So the modeling period is 1988-2000, FYI.

Unfortunately, ski trains are largely going to be fantasy as far as modeling goes.  If you want to see someone who has actually modeled the Tempo cars in HO, check out James Griffin's Action Road website:

http://www.actionroad.net/LaPlataDivision/LPD.htm

Here is a photo showing his post 1988 ex-Temp ski train cars.

http://www.actionroad.net/LaPlataDivision/LPD/SkiTrain_1994_T29.jpg

 

That's some impressive modeling James has done with those cars. I'm definitely not up to the task of building from scratch now, since I've yet to start on my new layout.

What I would like to do, however, is find trucks to approximate those on the Tempo cars.

 

[Flying switch56]

CP guy in TX

If you want to remain in the modern era, really, no problem. Get a steamer or two, or some classic first generation diesels and run fantrips, VIP excursions and premium rail "tours". Then you can "justify" anything. 

Thanks CP guy. I'll take a look at those videos.

This might also be a good way to take the plunge and acquire some steam power.

[Flying switch56]

Texas Zepher

Southwest Chief:

Just to clarify, the Ski Train used F40PHs instead of FP45s.

For a very brief time  in addtion to the F40PHs it ran behind an SD70e painted Rio Grande.

Hey TZ. I like the look of that SD70ACe at the head of a passenger train. I've avoided getting any of UP's heritage schemes because they were done a few years past the latest date I chose to model, but now I think I'm being just a bit too picky.

Fictional back story: The Union Pacific decided in 1998 to conduct a test run of one of their purposed heritage schemes. A modified SD70M (also an early prototype) was secretly painted in D&RGW heritage gray, black and Aspen gold in a shop near the TTC test track in Pueblo, Colorado. For a few weeks it was placed into service now and then hauling the D&RGW Ski Train. Rail fans were awestruck by the sight; so much so that by the time they remembered their cameras only a handful of blurry and indistinguishable photos had been taken. Then, like Bigfoot or the occasional UFO, the engine vanished and for years was a hotly debated subject (witnesses were sure of what they'd seen while skeptics claimed it was simply swamp gas). The mystery prevailed until UP unit 1989 was unveiled in June of 2006.

Now that I think about it, a fantasy heritage MOPAC passenger train would be interesting to model as well.

 

[riogrande5761]

Regarding the ski train from Denver to Winter Park...  it was the ex-Northern Pacific Heavyweights that ran from the 1960's to 1988.  In 1988 the Tempo cars were acquired from Canada to re-outfit the ski train going forward.  So the modeling period is 1988-2000, FYI.

Unfortunately, ski trains are largely going to be fantasy as far as modeling goes.  If you want to see someone who has actually modeled the Tempo cars in HO, check out James Griffin's Action Road website:

http://www.actionroad.net/LaPlataDivision/LPD.htm

Here is a photo showing his post 1988 ex-Temp ski train cars.

http://www.actionroad.net/LaPlataDivision/LPD/SkiTrain_1994_T29.jpg

 

[CP guy in TX]

Hey Vic,

Happy to respond with by 10 cents worth.

If you want to remain in the modern era, really, no problem. Get a steamer or two, or some classic first generation diesels and run fantrips, VIP excursions and premium rail "tours". Then you can "justify" anything.

There are lots of examples of the prototype doing this even today. Both UP and CPR do this all the time to this day, and the best part is, they both use what were their "signature" locos of the 40's.  UP uses an FEF and a Challenger, and CP uses a Hudson. You're road could use whatever you say was their big steam power back then :-) 

CP ran a few double headers out of Minneapolis with both their 2816 and Milwaukee 261, and a mix and match of CPR and Milwaukee Road Hiawatha passenger cars in 2007 or so. It's all over YouTube, search "2816 and 261 double header".

Also, CP has an ultra premium summertime "excursion" train that uses matched F units and a bunch of old ex-business cars and sleepers.

Want something a little more mish mash?  Check out Southern Railway's steam program from the late 70's into the early 80's. They used whatever equipment they could round up, and it was a colorful fleet, to say the least. They even used steamers from other roads. (CPR Royal Hudson 2839, for example).

Youtube "Southern 2839" and see what I mean as far as a mishmash goes.

These are all real life scenarios, but the beauty of model railroading is that you get to do whatever you say is right :-)

 

[Texas Zepher]

Southwest Chief

Just to clarify, the Ski Train used F40PHs instead of FP45s.

For a very brief time  in addtion to the F40PHs it ran behind an SD70e painted Rio Grande.

[Motley]

Matt,  you are correct sir.

Also, I just preordered those new Intermountain F7 AB set (with sound) D&RGW single stripe.

[Southwest Chief]

Just to clarify, the Ski Train used F40PHs instead of FP45s.

F40PH

FP45

 

[Texas Zepher]

Oh I had another thought, for my era the boy scouts used to take the train to their Jambories.   This gives me an excuse to run those NYC, Pennsy, B&O, IC and other misc passenger cars together in one train way far away from their home rails.   

So perhaps there is something like the Private Car Varnish annual convention in your operating schedule?  Or maybe just a large private varnish repair/storage facility.

[Flying switch56]

Juniatha

Quote : >> I just can't get past the anachronistic sight of running a Burlington Zephyr, Phoebe Snow, or Rock Island Golden State with relatively modern day equipment. <<

Hi Vic

May I drop in a thought from another angle :

You run 1980 - 2000 era - in that time frame there were , still are and hopefully will be so in the future , some groups / clubs / organisations concerned with preserving RR history and achieving admirable work in perservation of historic rolling stock .

Since model railroading necessarily comprises a degree of imagination - what about imagining there is an organisation that has refurbished one or the other of your mentioned passenger trains and runs it on the occasion ?   By chance , the occasion is usually up when you happen to be at the controls of the layout .  I guess that would provide good reason for Phoebe Snow all dressed up classic outfit passing the latest Amtrak , no ?

Regards

=  J =

Hi Juniatha.

That's a very good suggestion. In fact, that has been one of the ways I've rationalized (to myself, anyway) why 40 to 60 year old unmodernized equipment still shares the main with Dash 8-40C's and SD70MAC's (and I will continue to do so to a limited extent ).

After going over all the superb replies in this thread and having done a little soul searching (yeah, I know it's only a hobby, but still...) I've come to realize that what I would really enjoy is running those classic passenger trains in an appropriate setting. It would be great to have a proper terminal and coach yard, and have the opportunity to swap out various cars such as diners, sleepers, etc. And, of course, there's the added attraction of having scenery set in the late 40's or 50's.

I'm definitely sticking with the 1980 - 2000 freight layout. It's something I've been planning on for quite a while now.

However, I'm glad I haven't begun on the bench work yet, since I'm now starting to consider an unconnected 2 tier layout; one level for modern freight and one specifically for vintage passenger trains.

I guess this reply explains the "insane" part in my signature.

[Flying switch56]

Motley

Vic, for the 1990's, I would go with the smooth side streamliners . Walthers has them in the D&RGW. And you can get the Ski Train decals from microscale.

Up to and including the 1980s they had the heavyweights.

Power is up to you, you could go with FP45s, SD45s, even the F7s (like I did).

Thanks again. The RGZ and the Ski Train should both sit nicely within the time frame I'm modeling.

Also, I have an old set of Con-Cor heavyweights that I purchased years ago to model the D&RGW Prospector and considered using them for a mid 80's Ski Train. The problem is, the 80's ST consisted mostly of coaches and modified lightweight baggage cars (if I'm not mistaken), so I think I'll use them for their original purpose for now.

On a side note, until I get the consist right I use PA's to pull those heavyweights as one of my 40's fantasy trains.

Oh, and I just saw on Intermountain's web site, new releases, they are going to release the single stripe D&RGW F7s. I'm probably going to order a set.

http://www.intermountain-railway.com/currentflyers.html

Those are perfect. I think I'll order an AB set myself.

[Juniatha]

Quote : >> I just can't get past the anachronistic sight of running a Burlington Zephyr, Phoebe Snow, or Rock Island Golden State with relatively modern day equipment. <<

Hi Vic

May I drop in a thought from another angle :

You run 1980 - 2000 era - in that time frame there were , still are and hopefully will be so in the future , some groups / clubs / organisations concerned with preserving RR history and achieving admirable work in perservation of historic rolling stock .

Since model railroading necessarily comprises a degree of imagination - what about imagining there is an organisation that has refurbished one or the other of your mentioned passenger trains and runs it on the occasion ?   By chance , the occasion is usually up when you happen to be at the controls of the layout .  I guess that would provide good reason for Phoebe Snow all dressed up classic outfit passing the latest Amtrak , no ?

Regards

=  J =

[Motley]

Vic, for the 1990's, I would go with the smooth side streamliners . Walthers has them in the D&RGW. And you can get the Ski Train decals from microscale.

Up to and including the 1980s they had the heavyweights.

Power is up to you, you could go with FP45s, SD45s, even the F7s (like I did).

Oh, and I just saw on Intermountain's web site, new releases, they are going to release the single stripe D&RGW F7s. I'm probably going to order a set.

http://www.intermountain-railway.com/currentflyers.html

[Flying switch56]

Motley

Flying switch56:

 

Motley:

 

 

riogrande5761:

 

Motley:

 

 

Thanks for the info Michael. I was unaware that FP45's were still in use as late as 2000. It looks like I have much more research to do.

As for the F7 AB set, I'd be much too tempted to use PA AB for motive power, as unprototypical as that would be (I just love those PA's).

Vic

 

Vic, here is a couple of shots of my ski train...

Michael. Those are some beautiful models and excellent looking scenery.

I'm tempted to throw together a truncated version of the Ski Train, but I'm a little stumped on which cars to use. I've seen a number of photos depicting the "Tempo" cars used on the prototype and, to me, they seem to be a cross between corrugated and smooth side. The upper half resembles a smooth side car, but the flutes on the lower half are not nearly as pronounced as those on a car built by the Budd Company.

In your opinion, which car type (Budd or smooth side) would you recommend to assemble a fairly decent looking ersatz mid 1990's Ski Train?

Vic

[Motley]

Flying switch56

 

Motley:

 

 

riogrande5761:

 

Motley:

 

 

Thanks for the info Michael. I was unaware that FP45's were still in use as late as 2000. It looks like I have much more research to do.

As for the F7 AB set, I'd be much too tempted to use PA AB for motive power, as unprototypical as that would be (I just love those PA's).

Vic

Vic, here is a couple of shots of my ski train...

[Flying switch56]

Motley

riogrande5761:

 

Motley:

 

That's why I model the D&RGW. I already have the ski train. And I want to get the Zephyr, but nobody makes it anymore. I wish BLI would release another version!!

 

 

Well, unfortunately unless you have custom painted brass cars, afaik, a Ski Train in HO will have to be fantasy.  The real Ski Train cars of the 1960's thru 1988 were old heavy weight passenger cars acquired second hand (ex WP/NP/GN can't remember which).  All the plastic is bogus.  If you don't mind that - so far I don't have enough spare cash to buy fantasy if I know about it ahead of time - trying to reserve what little funds I have for prototypical stuff.

 

 

I'm modeling the Ski Train around year 2000. When they had the streamlined cars. But I'm using an F7 AB set as my power instead of the FP45s.

Thanks for the info Michael. I was unaware that FP45's were still in use as late as 2000. It looks like I have much more research to do.

As for the F7 AB set, I'd be much too tempted to use PA AB for motive power, as unprototypical as that would be (I just love those PA's).

Vic

[Flying switch56]

Texas Zepher

Vic, be careful there .... I would say that is more an equipment list rather than a consist.

I would say a normal large consist was more:  Power   F9AB steam generator, F9B
combine
diner
dome coach
dome coach
dome coach
dome lounge
coach
coach
dome observation

Or
GP40, steam generator, F9B
combine
diner
dome coach
dome coach
coach
coach
dome coach
dome observation

A small (more normal) consist was F9A, steam generator, F9B
combine
diner
dome coach
dome coach
coach
dome observation.

The last run on March 17, 1983
F9AB, steam generator, F9B
the same as above except one more dome coach directly in front of the observation.

Thanks TZ. Apparently I have several choices of trains to model in differing eras as I assemble my ultimate RGZ. That comes in very handy.

Vic

[Flying switch56]

riogrande5761

My pleasure, but shouldn't it have given you diesel rather than gas?

Well, in either case, it's a lot better than getting a case of the coal (apologies for the "rough" mental image...as well as the painful pun).

It looks like your info from the web matches whats in my books, like Never On Wednesday etc.  RGZ is a nice train.  BLI threatened to do RGZ versions which would be the CZ cars without the CZ name boards, and the diner and dome-obs would be without the antenae.  So far that hasn't materialized so we'll have to be happy with the CZ cars for now.

Modeling in N scale (which I probably should have mentioned earlier) I've had to resort to car/kit bashing more times than I can count to get close approximations of prototype equipment. Though I go by the "close enough" rule, I'd still like to own a prototypically correct model of the RGZ, brass or otherwise.

Vic

[Motley]

riogrande5761

 

Motley:

 

That's why I model the D&RGW. I already have the ski train. And I want to get the Zephyr, but nobody makes it anymore. I wish BLI would release another version!!

 

 

Well, unfortunately unless you have custom painted brass cars, afaik, a Ski Train in HO will have to be fantasy.  The real Ski Train cars of the 1960's thru 1988 were old heavy weight passenger cars acquired second hand (ex WP/NP/GN can't remember which).  All the plastic is bogus.  If you don't mind that - so far I don't have enough spare cash to buy fantasy if I know about it ahead of time - trying to reserve what little funds I have for prototypical stuff.

 

I'm modeling the Ski Train around year 2000. When they had the streamlined cars. But I'm using an F7 AB set as my power instead of the FP45s.

[riogrande5761]

Tex,

What you list are only "latter day" examples, post 1980.  The first one you list is a typical large consist during the last couple years of operation of the RGZ.  Personally I dislike the home built pilot the D&RGW fabricated in 1980 following a grade crossing accident.  Shame they couldn't have found a stock F7/F9A pilot to replace the damaged one with like the Colorado RR museum did.

I've got numerous books including Never On Wednesday and Zephyrs thru the Rockies and even the power MU consist you list (F9A, SG, F9A, F9B) order was typical of cold weather consists during the last few years.  When the RGZ started, a typical power consist could have only F9A/F9B or even F7A(#5761)/F9B on short trains and no SG.  As the RGZ ran into the mid 1970's, it tended to run larger and larger in size with the typical F9ABB power, and the SG moved from the back of the power consist to between the two F9B units.  Mid-week Zephyrs ran with fewer cars, perhaps 5 cars, and weekend trains would swell to 7 or 8.

There were two P-S Combines.  At the start of the RGZ in 1971, one of them still had skirts and both had the dorm windows still.  Soon, the one with skirts lost them so both had no skirts.  One had the dorm windows blanked out by about 1975 while the other maintained the dorm windows into the Anschutz era.  AFAIK, Palace Car Company (PCC) imported at least two version of these Prospector combines.  I have two versions (one as delivered and ran until about 1971/72 with full skirts and dorm windows, and the other 1975+ with the blanked out dorm windows and no skirts).  While its great to have both cars, the most typical combine of the RGZ era I don't have.  I believe Division Pt imported all versions but at $500+ each they were too expensive so the PCC versions will remain.

[Texas Zepher]

Flying switch56

Honestly, I think the Rio Grande Zephyr would be a beautiful train to model (love all those dome cars).

Consist from a web search:

• EMD F9 locomotives (A-B or A-B-B)

• Steam generator car rebuilt from an ALCO PB1

• Combine 1230 or 1231

• Coach - Silver Aspen

• Coach - Silver Pine

• Vista-Dome Coach - Silver Bronco

• Vista-Dome chair car - Silver Pony

• Vista-Dome chair car - Silver Colt

• Vista-Dome chair car - Silver Mustang

• Vista-Dome dormitory-buffet-lounge car - Silver Shop

• Diner (48 seats) - Silver Banquet

• Vista-Dome buffet-lounge-observation - Silver Sky

Vic, be careful there .... I would say that is more an equipment list rather than a consist.

I would say a normal large consist was more:  Power   F9AB steam generator, F9B
combine
diner
dome coach
dome coach
dome coach
dome lounge
coach
coach
dome observation

Or
GP40, steam generator, F9B
combine
diner
dome coach
dome coach
coach
coach
dome coach
dome observation

A small (more normal) consist was F9A, steam generator, F9B
combine
diner
dome coach
dome coach
coach
dome observation.

The last run on March 17, 1983
F9AB, steam generator, F9B
the same as above except one more dome coach directly in front of the observation.

[riogrande5761]

Flying switch56

Oh man, thanks for giving me GAS* riogrande5761.

Honestly, I think the Rio Grande Zephyr would be a beautiful train to model (love all those dome cars).

Consist from a web search:

• EMD F9 locomotives (A-B or A-B-B)
• Steam generator car rebuilt from an ALCO PB1
• Combine 1230 or 1231
• Coach - Silver Aspen
• Coach - Silver Pine
• Vista-Dome Coach - Silver Bronco
• Vista-Dome chair car - Silver Pony
• Vista-Dome chair car - Silver Colt
• Vista-Dome chair car - Silver Mustang
• Vista-Dome dormitory-buffet-lounge car - Silver Shop
• Diner (48 seats) - Silver Banquet
• Vista-Dome buffet-lounge-observation - Silver Sky

And, of course, there was also the Rio Grande Ski Train...

* GAS = Gear Acquisition Syndrome; a term some of us musician types use to describe the feelings of, "Now I just have to get me one of those!" I'm sure it applies to some model train enthusiasts as well.

Vic

 

My pleasure, but shouldn't it have given you diesel rather than gas?

It looks like your info from the web matches whats in my books, like Never On Wednesday etc.  RGZ is a nice train.  BLI threatened to do RGZ versions which would be the CZ cars without the CZ name boards, and the diner and dome-obs would be without the antenae.  So far that hasn't materialized so we'll have to be happy with the CZ cars for now.

[riogrande5761]

Motley

That's why I model the D&RGW. I already have the ski train. And I want to get the Zephyr, but nobody makes it anymore. I wish BLI would release another version!!

Well, unfortunately unless you have custom painted brass cars, afaik, a Ski Train in HO will have to be fantasy.  The real Ski Train cars of the 1960's thru 1988 were old heavy weight passenger cars acquired second hand (ex WP/NP/GN can't remember which).  All the plastic is bogus.  If you don't mind that - so far I don't have enough spare cash to buy fantasy if I know about it ahead of time - trying to reserve what little funds I have for prototypical stuff.

Of course we know about the BLI Zephyr cars.  Speculators bought up much/most of the remaining stock and are trying to get double MSRP out of them on fleabay.  Kind of criminal if you ask me.  I guess that means if BLI does a 4th run, you better just pay retail?  Or is someone in cahoots with BLI to ensure a sell out of another run?  I missed out on the Silver Colt and Silver Pine - which I need to have all the RGZ cars, but I can still run a decent prototypical RGZ with at least 7 ex-CZ cars plus the combine (have two PCC brass P-S "Prospector" combines - still need to be painted).

My railroad is modern era. But, the railroad owner is a bit of an eccentric,

Well to me you would have to be either young or eccentric to model modern era.  Maybe I'm becoming like the old farts I watched growing up now but the modern wide cab diesels don't float my boat, nor ditch lights, nor graffiti on cars, nor conspicuity stripes.

 

[Motley]

That's why I model the D&RGW. I already have the ski train. And I want to get the Zephyr, but nobody makes it anymore. I wish BLI would release another version!!

[Medina1128]

My railroad is modern era. But, the railroad owner is a bit of an eccentric, and he loved riding trains when he was a young'n. So, he's amassed his own fleet of beat up passenger and freight stock, had it refurbished and runs them on railfanning trips. Ticket sales are brisk so he's managed to offset most of the costs. Most of the buildings in the town I model were built in the 30s and 40s so they'd still be correct.