BLI Outlet Direct // Refurbs/ seconds What do you think?

[Anonymous]

A first time post;

Had to jump in because I actually called on these "seconds" last week. The numbers available are not that significant. Try to get a ATSF 4-8-4 through BOD. You won't because they don't have any. Only one heavy Mike was available and 3 or maybe 4 of the AC4's. Considering they probably sell THOUSANDS of units monthly, the percentage of seconds is probably inline with traditional retail. 1-2% is typical for a quality product.

Doubt you will find the unscrupulous dealer ordering up 50. They probably don't have that many in all of their stock of seconds. While their channels may not be consistent with what you are used to seeing in the MRR world, the picture is probably not as bad as some of these posts would like to suggest.

Wanted to get into the hobby since I was a kid, but never had the time/space/financial resources over the years. Suddenly in the span of a month I own a second hand 4x8 HO layout(lots of switching on this one, but didn't come with anything else) a new DCC system, 3 new locos including a couple of steamers and a fast growing fleet of rolling stock! Yeah, I got it baaaaad[:)]

Anyone with website pointers to a 2 layer shelf layout that I can leverage to fit my new 3rd stall in the garage?[:P]

[Anonymous]

Still no one ordered a BOD locomotive!?

Remember if you do, please share your experience with us.

[darth9x9]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon


I gotta agree. BLI has announced and brought more locomotives to market faster than anyone has ever done it. ........
Andre

They have to do it fast as their competition is going to bring out better quality sound units very soon. It will just be a matter of time before everyone realizes that BLI is the Tyco of sound units. Watch.......wait.........and listen.

[AggroJones]

rororo : "Here's one-Last years P2k geeps were dumped on the consumer, and then everyone had to get replacement plastic gears from them and do it themselves, or send them in."

I think I got one of those. The gears in the rear truck of my Geep keep jamming up.

"Where did you come up with the fact that BLI has so many returned engines "

I hear lots of stories. Published, on forums, and in person.

"Do you have an insider at BLI ?"

I'm not at liberty to say. It might blow his cover.

"Seems like you got a bad unit , and your mind is made up."

No, I have 3. All have somthing not as it should be with them.

[Anonymous]

aggro jones ;; your post was specific in that BLI has so many screwed up loco's , that they had the nerve to try to sell off their returns/refurbs/ seconds , or whatever you want to classiffy them as. Don't turn my post around, I did not state Bachmann or others have an outlet mall/store/ whatever. They unload merchandise just like every other company. Whatever way they can. You suggest in you post as if this is some awful tactic. I don't want to argue with you about the way manufacturers clean up their messes. Think about it ,and you'll see many ways that are used to get rid of under performing merchandise/ or screw up's in manufacturing.Here's one-Last years P2k geeps were dumped on the consumer, and then everyone had to get replacement plastic gears from them and do it themselves, or send them in. Probably thousands of defective engines. They all do it , one way or another. At least BLI isn't misleading anyone. BLI defects, I'm sure they have their share. Where do you suppose Bachmann and P2K get rid of their refurbished units ? If nobody is stating they have refurbs/seconds, from them for sale, I would have to believe that they are being misrepresented as brand new from resellers. Or else you can be naive and believe they don't have any . Where did you come up with the fact that BLI has so many returned engines ? Do you have an insider at BLI ? My LHS owner sold a lot of them,and had only 1 complaint/defective unit from an customer ,which was then properly fixed. Seems like you got a bad unit , and your mind is made up.

[AggroJones]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rororo

" IMHO This whole Outlet thing speaks badly of BLI. This says they have so much damaged, returned and screwed up locomotives that they have to make a program that sells them off so it's not a total loss for the company. You don't see Spectrum gathering all their mistakes and selling them off at discount. At BLI, sooooo many locomotives have been returned, they try to make up for some of this lost money by selling the junkards through an outlet. "
Aggro jones - you can't be serious. All you have to do is open your eyes next time you go shopping. Outlets are everywhere. If you want perfection ,or have reservations, spend the money for Brand New /Full Warranty. The idea that Bachmann or others ,don't pawn off their returns/re-worked /defective items somehow ,isn't too perceptive.

I ain't never heard of any Bachmann or P2k outlet myself. Never seen any special page announcing discounts for returned and damaged goods from them like BLI has done.

I didn't say Bachmann and others don't pawn off returns/defective/re-worked items, I said it seems like BLI must start this public outlet because they have so many messed up items.

[Anonymous]

" IMHO This whole Outlet thing speaks badly of BLI. This says they have so much damaged, returned and screwed up locomotives that they have to make a program that sells them off so it's not a total loss for the company. You don't see Spectrum gathering all their mistakes and selling them off at discount. At BLI, sooooo many locomotives have been returned, they try to make up for some of this lost money by selling the junkards through an outlet. "
Aggro jones - you can't be serious. All you have to do is open your eyes next time you go shopping. Outlets are everywhere. If you want perfection ,or have reservations, spend the money for Brand New /Full Warranty. The idea that Bachmann or others ,don't pawn off their returns/re-worked /defective items somehow ,isn't too perceptive.

[Anonymous]

Bummer I missed the Athearn sale. Wouldn't mind getting a bunch of hoppers at a discounted price because of damaged boxes or misprinted sides - gonna strip them down and repaint them anyways.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AggroJones

You don't see Spectrum gathering all their mistakes and selling them off at discount.

Oh, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy?

Well, some manufacturers sell scratch-n-dents to distributors at low cost who pass them on to hobby shops as such. That's pretty common. Damaged packaging is the most common.

In the past (and maybe now, hmmmm), some more nefarious stores sold recons and seconds as first-quality.

More often you see these show up via different kind of "outlet," vendors at shows that work out special arrangements.

Then again, others have blow-off sales. You used to be able to buy damaged goods from AHM/IHC at their Philly office. Athearn just had a huge damage sale. And MDC (pre-Horizon), for a long spell, was selling seconds via their web site.

So, in reality, the only thing BLI is doing that is slightly different is being very upfront about it.

And I respect that.

Rob

[Anonymous]

Oh boy, you've opened a can of worms now! I can see the debate forming right now - "What is 'modeling' and do you actually 'model'?" lol

[Anonymous]

Whats the big debate,this could be a good deal for someone who knows how to fix things up. If you are not one of these, just don't buy one!! There end of debate, now you can come up with something new too debate to death, no wait lets make it a POLL! (ya that the ticket a poll, then we can debate that too. )
Does anyone on this forum do any modeling.or do you just sit on here and debate so you can get more stars?????

[dknelson]

This practice is not new. Back in the 1960s many of the brass importers had "quiet" ways of dealing the factory seconds at reduced prices. NWSL was especially known for this, which is how I got a beautifully made Cotton Belt 4-4-2 for about $50 (the motor was outrageously poor). And AHM used to sell three for the price of one broken engines cars and buildings. I used to buy lots of their "funeral sale" stuff and some of it looked like it might have been dumped in the port on unloading -- there was rust. For really bad stuff they had a deal called Roundhouse Rubble - a box of broken trains for $10.
Walthers used to sell its seconds and returns cheaply at their retail outlet -- especially back when the manufacturing was right there in the same building.
And from time to time I have seen huge stacks of, say, misprinted Athearn kits for sale dirt cheap, such as hi cube boxcars where the printing was only on one side, etc. But the key phrase there is "dirt cheap" -- and nobody was really stuck as they got exactly what was described to them.
Now, if Broadway Limited would rip the guts out of these engines and sell them very cheaply purely as mantlepiece models I would by some. But their stuff seems so reliant on hi tech that I'd be leary of this offer at least as it has been described above if I wanted them to run.
Dave Nelson

[Don Gibson]

5 Day RETURN privelege - What then?? Refund? Exchange?? Credit slip???

NO WARRANTY - on sombody else's problem?

REFURBISHED - By service 'Technitions' . Have you had good experience with service 'Technicians'?

SIGHT UNSEEN - Baaaad!

MOST Retailers with 'scratch and dent' sales get rid of at COST. Same for manufacturers.
IF their DEALERS won't take them, perhap's they know something we don't..

[twhite]

Just curious--is the QSI surge problem in the BLI locos only on DCC? I have several BLI locos that I run on just DC and don't seem to have any trouble with them. Of course I've had to lower their starting voltage from 8.5 to 6 volts so that I have good speed range control. As to the factory-second problem, myself, I'd be a little leery, unless I wanted to have a whole fleet of a certain prototype at a reasonable cost. But even then, I'd have second thoughts about a Factory Second. However, bashing BLI this soon in the game isn't the answer, I think. A lot of us have been wanting sound at a reasonable price for a long time. If BLI is rushing a lot of product to market, it's probably only because of initial response. Right now, I'm very happy with my BLI's, my only wish is that they start including a few more railroads in their steam production.

[Anonymous]

Has anyone out there bought an BLI outlet locomotive yet? I was stongly considering a Cab-forward from there. Now I'm having second thoughts.

Please, if anyone has bought one tell us your experience.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by darth9x9

Hey AntonioFP45,

As we discussed before, as more competition among manufactures increase (Life Like, Atlas), it should force BLI to produce a better product and drive down the cost. Only time will tell.

[#ditto] Darth9x9

My friend, Cmarchan, did make a valid point when he and I were discussing the "Pros" and "Cons" of BLI and Soundtraxx.

PRO - BLI: Cmarchan pointed out that BLI does have the advantage in that their locomotives are designed "From the ground, up" for sound. Electronic components are value matched to each other. The sounds from the BLI diesels are clear and can even be even loud to the point where it's annoying.

Con - BLI: Zero choice in horn selection. You have to take what they give you. A sticky point for an increasing amount of modelers. As we become "spoiled" by this technology, more modelers are nitpicking about horn accuracy (yes, I'm guilty)

PRO - SDTRXX: Soundtraxx decoders provide a wider variety for steam and diesel sounds. Eight different horns for diesels! With the upcoming Tsunami, an equalizer will be available for tweaking sounds.

CON - SDTRXX: Labor intensive: Locomotives require modifications that can involve cutting, milling and repeated testing steps. Installer is responsible for matching components (dropping resistor, speaker, LEDs, etc). Good baffling is a must or the sound produced is a toy like joke! If a modeler uses outside installers (Litchfield Station, Tony's Train Xchange), shipping and labor charges are involved.

Competition will likely help the advancement of sound. [:D] It's doubtful that BLI is sitting still in the quality control department. As for buying "Refurbs", I'm like one of the posters above in that I need to see it just as I would an applicance in a department store's "Scratch & Dent" section.

NO WARRANTY?!!!! No Thanks!! I understand that BLI has lost money in warranty claims but at $138 to $300 A POP for these locomotives they're AS IS??? [:0]

Sorry guys, I've been around the block a few times and IMHO, this is BAD BUSINESS. [B)][B)] Looks more like an attempt to recover losses than "helping modelers on budgets. But, it will be around as long as there are modelers making the purchases.[:P] I'm sure that many of the units are decent runners, but for this kind of investment on a tight budget-------This compares to going for a stroll............ in the moonlight.........across a field with a "few" land mines planted. Odds are you won't step on one......but do you want to take that chance?[B)][:p][:0][;)]

Peace out!

[darth9x9]

Hey AntonioFP45,

As we discussed before, as more competition among manufactures increase (Life Like, Atlas), it should force BLI to produce a better product and drive down the cost. Only time will tell.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Reading some of the other threads on steam locomotive manufacturers and the never ending thread on the Digitrax yahoo groups list about the QSI power surge problem, it is clear that the BLI luster is fading fast. Dealers are reporting failure rates in the 35% range. My own experience has been very dissapointing. BLI have stired up the modelling world with the introduction of the sound equipped DCC locomotive, but it seems that many of us that have tried them are somewhat unhappy with the resulting product. I don't know if they are rushing too much to market to try and beat out the other sound equipped entrants coming on stream later this year, but they are damaging what was a huge surge of popular support and interest from the modelling community.

Simon, so well stated!

As posted on past threads, I used to fantasize years back of HO locomotives equipped with sound. Seems like Broadway, like any typical American business, is trying to recoup on its product investments quickly so it stands to reason that there will be flaws, more research and development followed with needed improvements.

I do hope that modelers don't get turned off as a result of the problems. Hopefully as product quality increases, so will the popularity of sound

.[:)][:D]

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mdtell

Geez guys. Why are you so down on BLI. They are not flooding the market with refurbished stuff or broken stuff being passed off as new. They indicate that they have a limited number of outlet items (not all of their products are listed on the Outlet Direct site) and they give you five days after you receive it to return it if it doesn't work. If you don't want to buy the outlet stuff, don't, but why ba***he manufacturer. If you buy their product new, they stand behind it. What more can you ask for? I, for one, like their stuff and want them to keep producing many more items.

I gotta agree. BLI has announced and brought more locomotives to market faster than anyone has ever done it. Apart from their predilection to favor Pennsy, you gotta admire that. When did the first J1e hit the market? About 2 years ago? Since then, they've done the A, the M1, the Pennsy T1, E7's, USRA heavy Mike, On30 C-16, the 3751 class, and the J1. The UP MT-73 is due out soon as is the C&O T-1. There are F's and SW's in the pipeline as well as E3/E6's and a Santa Fe 3800 class 2-10-2 (with the one off 2-10-4 #3829). And now the K4 and Alco RSD-15.

People who are complaining should have been around in the 50's and 60's when there was very little new coming out except for brass (always limited production). BLI is shaking up this hobby like no other manufacturer has ever done. I'm willing to cut them a little slack.

Andre

[mdtell]

Geez guys. Why are you so down on BLI. They are not flooding the market with refurbished stuff or broken stuff being passed off as new. They indicate that they have a limited number of outlet items (not all of their products are listed on the Outlet Direct site) and they give you five days after you receive it to return it if it doesn't work. If you don't want to buy the outlet stuff, don't, but why ba***he manufacturer. If you buy their product new, they stand behind it. What more can you ask for? I, for one, like their stuff and want them to keep producing many more items.

[the-big-blow]

SWILL describes what they are trying to give away.

[AggroJones]

IMHO This whole Outlet thing speaks badly of BLI. This says they have so much damaged, returned and screwed up locomotives that they have to make a program that sells them off so it's not a total loss for the company. You don't see Spectrum gathering all their mistakes and selling them off at discount. At BLI, sooooo many locomotives have been returned, they try to make up for some of this lost money by selling the junkards through an outlet.

[Anonymous]

Bob
In June I went down to San Bernardino to watch the 3751 come out the station for a re-didication of the passenger station. It looks even better than the BLI model, Ha Ha off course and puffs four times per rev.
When I was in the service at Norton AFB, I visited the 3751 in the local park many times, but never dreamed I would see it run. Living out here, I got to watch it go to railfair twice and the Grand Canyon trip last year.

Enjoy you model of this engine as it is fairly well detailed and looks good. I will weather my engine up some to make it look more in service.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bangert1

TEFFY
I noticed you stated as follows:
I own three BLIs and am very happy with them. You're right - the two 4-8-4's chuff three
times per revolution but the NYC Hudson works great .

In one of my previous Subjects in the past two weeks. I proclaimed BLI had sent me the replacement chip for the Santa Fe 4 -8 -4 and the new chip corrects the problem with the chuff. All you have to do is call BLI Technical support and ask for the chip. It takes about two minutes to replace the part. The tender sheet is removable by hand and the chip is replaceable. If you want it to sound correct, Call BLI. I had complained to them about the sound the first day the engine arrived and they have fixed the problem. The same is true if you purchased the PRR J1. The J1 did not chuff correctly and I was probably one of the first to receive the replacements since I had stayed in touch with BLI on this problem.

I model the Santa Fe also, like you seem to from you sign off.

I saw your SUBJECT and called them but it was after 5:00 PM eastern time so all I got was the answering machine. I forgot about calling them again until last Friday but it was so hectic I didn't have time until it was to late. I plan on calling them first thing Monday before I come to work.

Almost all of my locos are Santa Fe prototype, even the ones that have my private road decals. I like the family appearence. I also think that ATSF steam is just plain pretty. They always had balanced looking locos except for that discusting (SP) 2-10-10-2.

Have a blessed dya and remember SANTA FE ALL THE WAY

Bob

[Anonymous]

TEFFY
I noticed you stated as follows:
I own three BLIs and am very happy with them. You're right - the two 4-8-4's chuff three
times per revolution but the NYC Hudson works great .

In one of my previous Subjects in the past two weeks. I proclaimed BLI had sent me the replacement chip for the Santa Fe 4 -8 -4 and the new chip corrects the problem with the chuff. All you have to do is call BLI Technical support and ask for the chip. It takes about two minutes to replace the part. The tender sheet is removable by hand and the chip is replaceable. If you want it to sound correct, Call BLI. I had complained to them about the sound the first day the engine arrived and they have fixed the problem. The same is true if you purchased the PRR J1. The J1 did not chuff correctly and I was probably one of the first to receive the replacements since I had stayed in touch with BLI on this problem.

I model the Santa Fe also, like you seem to from you sign off.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by andrechapelon
]

I've bought refurbed/second items before. Never had a problem with them. In fact, my lawnmower is one such item. It's now in it's seventh summer of use.

Andre

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by darth9x9

This is going to be very bad for BLI - how long do you think it will take an unscrupulous dealer to buy the refurbs and sell them as new??? Everyone will suffer as a consequence. This is definitely a bad move for the industry.

Well, the first clue for BLI will be when they get a bulk order for 50 or so units of varying prototype. That's a sure red flag that someone is looking to resell them. It wouldn't surprise me for BLI to refuse an order above a certain number of units. Ordering them in onesy-twosey lots to be sent to different addresses is a pain in the rear end if it's an attempt to hide the intent to resell. In addition, the packaging can be marked in such a way that it is impossible to hide the fact that the item is a refurb/second OR the item itself can be marked in an unobtrusive spot, or both.

Then there's this. In this day and age, how long do you think it would take for the word to go out that someone is trying to palm off refurbs as new and for the warning to go out? A reputable dealer has a reasonable return policy on defective items. How do you know any dealer will refund your money or replace an item (BLI or otherwise) unless you've done business with them before or have heard nothing substantially bad about them in the model press or at this forum?

Personally, I really don't see this a big problem. Anyone trying to "get rich" quick by selling BLI seconds as new would be better off investing in yak's milk futures or buying "prime" agricultural real estate in Central Florida - from me, preferably. There's not a big enough market to make that kind of fraud more than marginally profitable. Of course, I will admit that criminals generally tend to have marginal intelligence so there may be some knuckle dragging moron that tries it. I certainly wouldn't. Were I to take up a criminal career, it wouldn't be one selling BLI seconds to the great unwashed.

Years ago (roughly 40 or so if memory serves), there was a series of cartoons in MR by a fellow who signed himself HASmith. The one I most vividly remember is of a guy hiding behind the corner of a building and opening up his trenchcoat as he intones to a startled passerby, "Psst, buddy. Wanna buy a hot Mikado?"

I don't know if I ever will take up BLI's kind offer. Right now I'm not in the market for anything on their refurb list, so the question's moot at present. However, I don't have alarm bells going off in my head about buying a refurb, either. If they offer something I could use one more of, I probably would try them out.

I've bought refurbed/second items before. Never had a problem with them. In fact, my lawnmower is one such item. It's now in it's seventh summer of use.

Andre

[Anonymous]

I'M SORRY I FOUND THE WEBB SIGHT THROUGH GOOGLE.

QUOTE: Originally posted by AggroJones

QUOTE: Originally posted by JimdeBree

I noticed that BLI added this to their outlet store web page:

"***A 5 day product evaluation period is provided on all BOD purchases (5-day period calculated from date of receipt of product). Products that do not operate properly may be returned within this period only. Return shipping costs are the responsibility of the purchaser. ***"

But it takes more than 5 days to reach the west coast. How do they handle that? Lets say I purchase one, then it takes 8 days to get to me. My friggin' product evaluation period is crushed.

NOTICE THAT IT SAYS "5 DAYS FROM CALCULATED DATE OF RECEIPT OF PRODUCT." I'm sure that if you call them and tell them when it was received they probably wont give you a hard time.

Have a blessed day and remember SANTA FE ALL THE WAY

Bob

[darth9x9]

On the first page of the web site, look down the left column and the 11th option is Outlet Direct. Here is a link as well:
http://www.broadway-limitedwest.com/bod.htm