So I have a branch line originating in a small town with a few sidings, some service tracks and a turntable. I want to run passenger and freight service to another small town (roughly about 30 feet around the layout) up in the mtns that has a siding and a run around but (most importantly) no turntable. The branch line ends in the mtn town.
So how do I treat the locos for the return trip? Do I run hood units only and just run them "backwards" back down the mtn? Do I run only consist A-A units (FP7s/E8s) back to back for both directions? Or do I just let the sky giant (me) reach down and lift the loco and turn it around (not the option I prefer).
How do you guys operate this? Would seem to be overkill to run A-A units out and back if I'm only pulling a few passenger cars/freight cars. But would look foolish to have a single A unit back all the way down the mtn pulling cars on the return trip. .
Charlie,
Given the nature of your inquiry, this may be better suited for the Prototype Prototype information for the modeler forum. My ...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom, I think the Trains forum guys would laugh at the prospect of turning a locomotive by hand...
Charlie, if you're serving two small towns only 30 miles apart on a branch line, a pair of hood units seems like overkill. One hood unit might even be overkill. :-) Since you aren't likely to need more than one or two cars (a coach and a combine or mail car) for this service, I'd run it with a switch engine (which, depending on your era, might even be a venerable steamer), and run it backwards for the turn home. Or, if it fits your prototype, look into a pair of motor cars that can be m.u.'d back-to-back.
Happy railroading!
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Another thought: Even if you don't have room on the layout for a wye in the mountain town, you can simulate one by running two facing turnouts off the edge of the layout (tacked closed, of course), modeling a wye "in the aisle." I have a similar arrangement on my home layout. Then you'd have a modeled justification for turning your loco by hand.
Broadly speaking, the prototype -- assuming you want some basis to justify the choice you make -- would not use covered wagons on a run that would require extensive movement in reverse for the A unit. True, there's probably an exception to the rule, but I'd say that is rare and you're wanting to model how things usually worked. In some cases they would use covered wagons if nothing else was available, but probably only with two units consisted together so that the cabs are oriented for forward running in opposite directions.
Passengers may also present another reason to have units oriented for forward travel. I'm unsure about whether there's something specific in the rule books, but a A unit operating in reverse does limit visibility for grade crossings and other places where visibility ahead could be important for safety reasons.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Actually there would be no need to turn your freight locomotives..Your passenger units could be a GP7/9 or a RS3 instead of F or E units..
Better would be to run a mixed train up the branch.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Steven Otte Tom, I think the Trains forum guys would laugh at the prospect of turning a locomotive by hand...
Steven,
Yes, they would...and rightfully so. What I meant was the Prototype information for the modeler forum. Sorry for the confusion.
Oops! My bad. Sorry for the misunderstanding, Tom.
This is what the road switcher type unit was designed for. Most engineers prefer to run backwards the first half of the trip so they could be more comfortable on the return leg of the trip. Sometimes switching layouts at certain towns dictated (pre radio days) which way the unit had to be facing. Some roads had road switchers with controls on both sides, which solves your problem.
I've seen pictures of the Soo Line running a single F7 on the White Tail, MT line. Backing one of those up for 135 miles would a real pain in about every joint of the upper torso.
Dick
The most plausible scenario would be a hood-type unit (GP7-9, SD7-9, RS-3, RSD4-5, H24-66) with a steam generator, and possibly dual controls. Running one of these backwards isn't the greatest, but much better than a F or E-unit backwards.
The rear ends of covered wagons didn't have pilots, so foreign matter on the tracks (rocks, trees, snow, automobiles) would be of much greater concern.
In steam days, how did the crews handle this situation? There were quite a few small turntables (maybe 60 foot or shorter) located at the ends of branch lines. In tight spaces, the turntable might be more plausible than a wye, although wyes were popular for not needing to get shoveled out in winter. Or, the assigned steam engine could have had a large light on the tender, and perhaps a pilot to make the reverse run a bit easier. Running backwards was more common than you would think. Depending on the grade, running forward uphill, backwards down might have been desirable, to keep water over the crown sheet of the firebox. If the crown sheet became uncovered, it often led to a very bad day for the crew...
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
CharlieM90 So I have a branch line originating in a small town with a few sidings, some service tracks and a turntable. I want to run passenger and freight service to another small town (roughly about 30 feet around the layout) up in the mtns that has a siding and a run around but (most importantly) no turntable. The branch line ends in the mtn town. So how do I treat the locos for the return trip? Do I run hood units only and just run them "backwards" back down the mtn? Do I run only consist A-A units (FP7s/E8s) back to back for both directions? Or do I just let the sky giant (me) reach down and lift the loco and turn it around (not the option I prefer). How do you guys operate this? Would seem to be overkill to run A-A units out and back if I'm only pulling a few passenger cars/freight cars. But would look foolish to have a single A unit back all the way down the mtn pulling cars on the return trip. .
Do what the SP did. Use GP9's set up with dual controls (i.e. there were engineer's controls on both sides of the cab). SP's "Del Monte" in later years usually ran with 3 cars and a single dual control GP9 like SP #5623 (later 3005 and then 3189). No need to to turn at all.
SP 5623 in Niles Canyon: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=171886&nseq=4
Toward the bottom of this page, is a pic of SP 3005 (nee 5623) shown ready to depart San Jose for Monterey running long hood first: http://wx4.org/to/foam/sp/san_jose/long_haul/del/monte.html
Andre
I grew up at the end of just such a branch on the Southern. They just went forward one direction and backward the other. In the last few years of the branch, they took out the run around and blocked the train before heading down the branch. So the locomotive could be on either end or in the middle of the train depending on the pickups and setouts.
The early passenger service was via a mixed train instead of a separate passenger run, but perhaps you could use it as justification for a doodlebug.
A view from a slightly different perspective:
Prototype. Katsuda-sen, Fukuoka-ken, Japan, 1959. Left main at Yoshizuka, ran to two coal mining communities. Passenger was (usually) DMU (diesel multiple unit. RDC was a Budd brand name.) Freight ran behind C11 class 2-6-4T-kettles that ran bunker first out, smokebox first in. Occasionally a DMU was replaced by a steam-powered mixed train.
Model. Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo runs from the mainline interchange at Tomikawa through two towns (one with a small coal mine, both with freight stations) to the big colliery at the end of the line - on a route with 4% grades laid down using a snake for a straightedge through terrain that would be challenging to a mountain goat. Usual motive power - a motley collection of teakettle tank steamers. Off-hours passenger runs are handled by a 4-wheel rail bus. Nothing is ever turned at either end of the line - the management considers it more important to keep water over the crown sheets on the grades.
If you suspect that the former was a major source of inspiration for the latter, you got it in one.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The end of the branchline at Sparta, Greece consists of a passenger depot, run-around track, a couple of spur tracks (no industries), an unused (or rarely used) armstrong turntable, and abandoned enginehouse or car barn.. I observed a train consisting of back-to-back doodlebugs. No turnouts were thrown. The train came to the station and the crew moved to the opposite end of the train to take the train out. Leaving Sparta:
WSOR 3801 wrote, "The most plausible scenario would be a hood-type unit (GP7-9, SD7-9, RS-3, RSD4-5, H24-66) with a steam generator, and possibly dual controls. Running one of these backwards isn't the greatest, but much better than a F or E-unit backwards."
One important consideration there is steam generator. This is picky but-- I imagine many modelers want to run a small minimal train so they put a passenger car or two after an F-unit. But most F A-units did not have steam generators to provide steam for heat, lights and air conditioning to passenger cars. The steam generator was in the B-units. Do you want to run a head-end- car and coach with a big long E unit? (Actually E-units often used on shorter trains that did not warrant multiple F-units.)
So even running in "correct" direction, a passenger train pulled by single F unit might raise a question.
Modern cab-unit locomotive with supplemental power car to service passenger cars:
An F unit with a steam boiler would have a short steam exhaust stack. It wasn't unusual of an FB unit to have a boiler for use by an FA unit with steam controls. An FP unit would come equipped with boiler..
The Wabash had a branch line that used either a switcher or geep and put a boiler in the combine and piped it out the door to the steam line for heat in combine/coach combo mixed train. For ac it was open windows. The combine also served as the caboose.
leighant One important consideration there is steam generator. This is picky but-- I imagine many modelers want to run a small minimal train so they put a passenger car or two after an F-unit. But most F A-units did not have steam generators to provide steam for heat, lights and air conditioning to passenger cars. The steam generator was in the B-units. Do you want to run a head-end- car and coach with a big long E unit? (Actually E-units often used on shorter trains that did not warrant multiple F-units.) So even running in "correct" direction, a passenger train pulled by single F unit might raise a question.
In the original post, he did say FP7-E8. FP7s were 4 feet longer, to give room to hold more boiler water.
E-units in mountainous territories didn't do very well, those unpowered axles cutting into tractive effort. E-units weren't very useful for hauling freight either, so when most passenger service ended, most E-units went any as well. A few survived hauling commuter trains and executive specials.
The main issue with steam generators in F units was lack of space to put the boiler water. SOU modified their F3s, putting the main air reservoirs on the roof to give a bit more space underneath to hold water. They later purchased FP7s. B-units had plenty of room where the cab would be in an A-unit to put a large tank to hold more water.
For what it's worth: Duluth and Northeastern RR ran out of Cloquet, MN to interchange with DM&IR at Saginaw, MN. about 11 miles away. I rode this train once in the 1960s. The 2-8-0 pulled the train to Saginaw pilot first. When we arrived at Saginaw, there was a wye, but the steamer was not turned on it. It coupled to the cars the DMIR left at the interchange and the locomotive ran backwards all the way to Cloquet. To the best of my memory, Cloquet did not have a turntable in the 1960s, but I believe there used to be. I don't know if there was a wye in Cloquet. A crewman told me that this was the way they usually did it. Additional note: when the train reached a main highway, the train stopped for the crossing. A crewman explained to me that the grain trucks traveling that highway either did not or had trouble stopping for the crossing, so the train did. Ain't shortline/branchline railroading interesting? -Lloyd
Well those folks can laugh at me all they want because I’m not blessed with the space they have for a turntable or a wye. I run steam engines only and even though there were plenty of prototype short lines that ran steam engines tender first on the return trip, I didn’t want to. If you can have unprototypical off campus features like staging and fiddle yards, why not an off campus wye or turntable. Go ahead and laugh. I‘m not listening and don’t care,
PATRICK A FLORYIf you can have unprototypical off campus features like staging and fiddle yards, why not an off campus wye or turntable. Go ahead and laugh. I‘m not listening and don’t care,
Not sure what you are meaning, but turning a locomotive by hand, on or off the layout, when there is no room for a turntable is perfectly acceptable.
It is your railroad.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
PATRICK A FLORYWell those folks can laugh at me all they want because I’m not blessed with the space they have for a turntable or a wye. I run steam engines only and even though there were plenty of prototype short lines that ran steam engines tender first on the return trip, I didn’t want to. If you can have unprototypical off campus features like staging and fiddle yards, why not an off campus wye or turntable. Go ahead and laugh. I‘m not listening and don’t care,
Puzzling -- you resurrected a nine-year-old thread to be righteously indignant about something that no one said?
Do what you like on your layout.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Tom, what is so “rightful” about laughing at turning engines by hand? My layout is 11” wide, how wide is yours? Better include staging and fiddle yards in the unprototypical feature comedy show, just to be consistent. And be a little more sympathetic to those of us that don’t have basements to fill with railroad.
cuyama Puzzling -- you resurrected a nine-year-old thread to be righteously indignant about something that no one said? Do what you like on your layout.
Alton Junction
PATRICK A FLORYTom, what is so “rightful” about laughing at turning engines by hand? My layout is 11” wide, how wide is yours? Better include staging and fiddle yards in the unprototypical feature comedy show, just to be consistent. And be a little more sympathetic to those of us that don’t have basements to fill with railroad.
Who is Tom?
I am having a hard time following your thoughts.
Has someone insulted your modeling efforts or operational methods? If so, I am sympathetic that happened. I have had some rude visitors to my layout(s) in the past, and I have been aggravated by the experiences.
Have fun with what you are doing. You make the rules for your railroad.
I have not had a layout for 3 years, so you are doing better than I am.
Let me get this straight.
In 2011 Steve Otte made an innocent joke to Tstage (Tom) comparing model railroaders to Railfan Foamers because Tstage initially and mistakenly posted a link the Trains forum and not the MR Prototype forum.
Patrick, who previously only made 6 posts in 7 years in the forum, chose to resurrect this thread to tell us he is offended, and make two posts about it.
Patrick I'm going to suggest that in these days of Coronavirus, mass unemployment: you have other things weigh on you. Surely Steven Otte nor Tom would not make fun of folks who couldn't afford or have space to build a muliti thousand square foot railroad empire.
I draw your attention to two threads: Jeffreys Trackside Diner, which is frequently off topic and where we share our troubles, which are considerable, in some cases, or the How the Virus Has Affected Me.
Come to either and tell us what is really bothering you.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
This is why I stopped posting about my bathtub layout.
Rich
BigDaddyLet me get this straight. In 2011 Steve Otte made an innocent joke to Tstage (Tom) comparing model railroaders to Railfan Foamers because Tstage initially and mistakenly posted a link the Trains forum and not the MR Prototype forum.
Henry, I read back through the thread, and I do believe your deduction is the correct interpretation. Thank you for figuring this out and posting the explanation.
I hope we find out what is really going on, your diner suggestion is good.
SeeYou190I hope we find out what is really going on
As long as Rich doesn't post any pics of him sitting in his bathtub, with a layout floating on 2" foam
Hi all
Not all branch lines are equal all depends what they where built for.
However if you are running locomotives that need turning up a branch line then the branch line needs a means of turning them this could be a triangle, turntable or even a balloon loop.
The solution will be one of those three. the branch line that leaves my home town and travels some 300 km dates back to the steam days when built it was very busy at that time at the end of the line there was a turning triangle land hungry yes but cheaper than a turntable.
If your branch is running loco's that need turning then you must have a means of turning them. No single ended loco's run up the mentioned branch now, but the turning triangle is still there not sure a loco could safely navigate it but it is still there as part of the station yard.
0-5-0 switcher should be avoided as much as possible less chance of breaking something that way.
regards John