Thank you everybody for your thoughts, tips and suggestions.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Unless we are talking Carribian blues of the ocean, any other water I have seen is relatively NOT blue.
The river near me is a muddy shade of brown, Ponds have more of a greenish tint to them, even the small one I have under a waterfall in my front yard. I gave up trying to totally eliminate the algae, just eliminate enough so the pump for the waterfall works. How the dirt gets in there, I'll never know, but that makes the bottom brownish too.
Lakes I have seen, on a bright sunny day driving past Lake Erie, it appeared blueish on the horizon far away, but up close, not so much. As mentioned probably a reflection of the sky on a clear sunny day.
From far away the Pacific ocean looks like a blue haze descending from the higher country of the middle of Oahu to the lower North side, but up close, not so much blue.
I would stick with a brownish-greenish base to be under the liquid water as in some of hte fine photos here.
I don't have any real water on my layout, just a gullly with a underpass under the tracks. I used a greeenish-brownish base as gulllys tend to be muddy.
Just my thoughts and observations.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Mikec6201 Here are two pictures of the same lake. First one is my mistake, waaaay to blue. Second pic it how it looks now....Mike
Here are two pictures of the same lake. First one is my mistake, waaaay to blue. Second pic it how it looks now....Mike
Whoops! That looks like a glacier-fed lake in spring! Water can be that blue, but I don't have a photo of it with a train...this is the closest I've got: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=343654
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
Thanks for your very kind assessment, jmbjmb.
There wasn't much "technique" to choosing the colours: the brown is a "dirt" colour picked off a Walmart paint chart, and was used (as a wash, after thinning with water) for all of my basic landforms (plaster over screen). Before the colour was applied, the whole layout looked like it had been hit by a blizzard. Here's an area that's not yet been sceniced but, mercifully, has been coloured:
The grey/green was also chosen as a scenery colour - mainly for background trees which were roughed-in using blocks of white upholstery foam. Some of it was dipped in the paint, but brush painting was more effective and more economical, too, and not so messy:
I also used the same colour to represent distant hills. These are simply Masonite, painted on the "rough" side, and dusted with some ground foam. Because this is a coved corner, it was easy to bend the sheet and slip it in behind the already-installed scenery - I had left a slight gap between the scenic plaster landforms and the wall, a rare example (for me) of planning ahead.
For the water, both colours were used unthinned.
I think that water (and scenery) colours are very subjective: pick what looks best to you - it helps to have a look at your prototype, of course - but try to really "see" that at which you're looking. I think that I was fairly lucky, but I my sense of colour seems not too bad - it suits my tastes, at least. I don't think that any of this is too difficult, though - while I've been model railroading, on and off, for over fifty years, this layout is my first real attempt at scenery, first use of ground foam, first use of polyfibre, and first try making plaster "water". I did make some trees quite a few years ago, using twig armatures, with dyed sawdust foliage applied over steel wool "branches". And I tried resin water, which turned out well-enough, although it was expensive, took ages to set, and stunk-up the whole house. The range of better products available nowadays gives us all a better chance of getting decent results first try. And if you're unhappy with your first try, determine why, then have another go at it.
Wayne
doctorwayne, your Maitland river has got to be the most realistic river I've seen modeled. The color is great. All the techniques for modeling "blue" water don't come close to capturing a river as much as you did. Achieving that color is a technique that should be in a MR article much more than the standard "paint the bottom black and brown around the edges" technique. The cold latte brown you show is what the rivers I grew up with looked like when they were clearing up a few days after a rain. Right after, they were similar but much redder in color.
The water in my version of the Maitland River (southwestern Ontario) is based on the colour of the Grand River (southern Ontario) in spring flood, and it's definitely not blue:
It does clear-up somewhat as it enters Lake Erie, though (the real Maitland flows into Lake Huron, while the Grand does flow into Erie), but it's still not blue:
Here's a view of the same area from above (photo courtesy of Secord Air Services):
Chippawa Creek is a shallower water course, and I represented it using the same dark grey-green paint as shown in the previous photo.
The sand bar and muddy water in the first two photos was done using the same "dirt" colour that I use for my basic landforms. Both colours are flat interior latex house paint. "White water" effects were done with Polly Scale Reefer White, and everything got three coats of high gloss water-based urethane, applied with a brush.
Here's an aerial view:
The same techniques were used to create this inlet of Lake Erie:
...and as seen from above:
Negro Creek (southern Ontario) is close to "black water", but uses the same dark grey/green. Surrounded by trees and underbrush, it's barely visible at ground level:
...but can be seen from the air:
All "water" is Durabond 90 patching plaster, applied, for the most part, over plywood.
Unless it:
water should be either dark green or muddy brown in appearance. Even if the water is clear, the "color" will often times come from depth of the water or the underlying deposits (rocks, soil, vegetation) in the water.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
My thoughts on blue water.Water is gloss medium over a mix of Cobalt Blue,Black,with a touch of Thicket a greenish colour.This is my version of the Grand river which splits my home town (Grand Rapids) in half.The normal colour of the Grand is NOT a colour I want on my layout.
This area is still very much under construction so the photo took a quick trip through paint.
If you look back at all the pictures, you'll see something no one has mentioned - the vegetation along the shores. This is really a key item. Not only does it hide the edges, it also provides something which reflects off the smooth surface. I like to apply tall grass and other foliage after the Envirotex is set. It does like to "creep" up the edges of the water surface, so I can hide that with other scenic materials later. Overhanging trees have a nice appearance, too.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Flashwave Geared Steam: GP-9_Man11786: An additional complication is my choice to model South Carolina, where we have lot of black water rivers. In these rivers the water is uniformly coffee-colored due to tannins from decaying leaves. This is somewhat unique to the Deep South however. "Oh black water, keep on rollin" THAT'S what that line's talking about! Okay, makes sense.
Geared Steam: GP-9_Man11786: An additional complication is my choice to model South Carolina, where we have lot of black water rivers. In these rivers the water is uniformly coffee-colored due to tannins from decaying leaves. This is somewhat unique to the Deep South however. "Oh black water, keep on rollin"
GP-9_Man11786: An additional complication is my choice to model South Carolina, where we have lot of black water rivers. In these rivers the water is uniformly coffee-colored due to tannins from decaying leaves. This is somewhat unique to the Deep South however.
An additional complication is my choice to model South Carolina, where we have lot of black water rivers. In these rivers the water is uniformly coffee-colored due to tannins from decaying leaves. This is somewhat unique to the Deep South however.
"Oh black water, keep on rollin"
THAT'S what that line's talking about! Okay, makes sense.
catfish do not jump btw, they are bottom feeders.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
technique I tried for "zero depth" water for 8x8 diorama contest that worked really well.
"water" area painted with black, dark green, and sand along bank, allowing over spray to blend colors.
I then gave water area a thin coat of gloss medium glue to make it water, I know, you're thinking been there, done, that, nothing new here, but here is where it takes a curve.
While I thought the colors were good, and the glue's transparent layer gave me the look of depth I wanted, I wasn't happy with the overall appearance, it didn't look wet. The high gloss reflective surface was not there.
Not sure what to do to fix it, I set this project aside and turned my attention to a passenger car that I had painted a couple of days before, and as S.O.P., I filled the airbrush cup with Future floor stuff to spay the car to prep it for decals.
Suddenly my brain farted out, "hey this stuff is just super high gloss clear acrylic paint" so I gave my not so wet looking water a shot of it, figuring it can't make it any worse, and set it aside to dry.
Long story short, it worked great, my water now had the luster it needed!!
I guess my brain was overloaded with gas that week, because it said, " when you use this stuff on your floor, you just squirt it out of the bottle and spread it around with a sponge-mop because it's self leveling".
I grabbed my little diorama, squirted out a puddle on the water, spread it around with my finger (the only tool "handy" at the time), and let it dry. the result was the same as the spayed version the day before.
here are the results
In fact, I liked the results so much that the ponds in my earlier pic have since also received the "Future" pour and spread treatment.
This is a close-up of an HO-scale beaver swimming in the swamp of my layout. I used paint to tint the layers of Envirotex. For the final pour, after I poured the Envirotex, I stuck a toothpick into some light green craft paint and swirled it around. The result was unevenly-distributed green "pond scum."
Musket Minatures makes the beavers, by the way. For the one that's swimming, I cut the legs off and filed the bottom flat, creating a "waterline" beaver. I glued it on top of the next-to-last layer of Envirotex and then did the final pour around it.
Geared Steam GP-9_Man11786: An additional complication is my choice to model South Carolina, where we have lot of black water rivers. In these rivers the water is uniformly coffee-colored due to tannins from decaying leaves. This is somewhat unique to the Deep South however. "Oh black water, keep on rollin"
-Morgan
small "frog" pond
with suprise visitor
kind of a time lapse of small pond.
You must be modeling the low country -- water as black as cold coffee. I'm modeling the up state and often the Broad River there ran red. People wouldn't believe it if I made a river that color on my layout, so usually I try for a shade of green.
GP-9_Man11786 An additional complication is my choice to model South Carolina, where we have lot of black water rivers. In these rivers the water is uniformly coffee-colored due to tannins from decaying leaves. This is somewhat unique to the Deep South however.
None of the examples given above are a good representation of deep south black water, you need to experiment by painting before you pour, sandy color around the edges then gradually to black. Make a couple of test dioramas and compare to some pictures of your local waterways. I would use Modge Podge instead of WS, but that's a preference.
South Carolina
Here is the resulting 'water' in a river scene I built a few years back. It is a painted bottom with sprinkled pebbles and some sand, three layers of epoxy, and a topping of stippled gel gloss medium. The epoxy was tinted as I described earlier, and to make it a bit murky or opaque, I added a pinch of plaster of Paris to the last pour.
This is my latest water, completed about a week ago. Same method, but this time painted grey and blue on the bottom. In the far distance, the water is actually salt water in the Strait of Georgia on the east coast of Vancouver Island. I had set the diorama up on the railing of my ocean view balcony. I left most of the vertical edge of the 'water' visible in this cropped image, at the bottom, so you can see its thickness and true colour.
Here is a close-up of gloss medium on silver Mylar wrapping paper:
An HO Prieser horse
Harold
Harold,
You would have made a great science teacher....but then again maybe you are?
Great work!
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
hminky That is why water is blue. That is a metallic cardboard "silver" balloon. An application of that idea: Even experimented with mylar sheeting: Visit: http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/scenery/ballon_pond/ Thank you if you visit Harold
That is why water is blue. That is a metallic cardboard "silver" balloon. An application of that idea:
Even experimented with mylar sheeting:
Visit:
http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/scenery/ballon_pond/
Thank you if you visit
Very nice work! You've got the "reflected surroundings" concept dead on!
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
sfcouple MikeFF: On the basis of the reflection of sky theory, I painted the ceiling of the layout room blue. I actually painted the whole room blue and them worked it progressively lighter down to the almost white at the horizon. If I'm on schedule, which is seldom, I'll get the river done this winter and see what it looks like. Scenery maste rGeorge Sellios took several attempts to get the water in his harbor right, so I guess you just keep experimenting. Mike..that sounds cool. I'm getting ready to paint a wall for a backdrop and I really like your idea of a lighter color near the horizon. I'd love to see some photos when you are finished, thanks for a great idea. Wayne
MikeFF: On the basis of the reflection of sky theory, I painted the ceiling of the layout room blue. I actually painted the whole room blue and them worked it progressively lighter down to the almost white at the horizon. If I'm on schedule, which is seldom, I'll get the river done this winter and see what it looks like. Scenery maste rGeorge Sellios took several attempts to get the water in his harbor right, so I guess you just keep experimenting.
On the basis of the reflection of sky theory, I painted the ceiling of the layout room blue. I actually painted the whole room blue and them worked it progressively lighter down to the almost white at the horizon. If I'm on schedule, which is seldom, I'll get the river done this winter and see what it looks like. Scenery maste rGeorge Sellios took several attempts to get the water in his harbor right, so I guess you just keep experimenting.
Mike..that sounds cool. I'm getting ready to paint a wall for a backdrop and I really like your idea of a lighter color near the horizon.
I'd love to see some photos when you are finished, thanks for a great idea.
I like to add the haze to distant backdrop hills/ trees as well. Even though you may paint the backdrop hills, mountain and distant trees that will be sharp in contrast, it really looks good to "fog" or haze those distant features. I will find this easier done by airbrushing thinned wash of white, blue or gray mix. Many times some closer forground tress etc I will clear/ wipe w/ a paint brush to remove the fogged paint to allow to show much sharper. Additional forground items can always the painted or touched up later as scenery is done toward the backdrop.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Yup, water can appear blue, green, brown, or clear - or any mix you can imagine. As indicated, the sunlight definitely plays a part in the water's appearance "colorwise". I recall being at Lake Taho years ago and was amazed at the various colors - and the clarity. What looked 2 ft deep was closer to 10 feet.
Anyway, in coloring your water you might want to experiment with undercoats of various greens/browns/blues and then layers of the clear water material over that. Obviously there are lots of variables, so I would recommend some experimenting on a smaller scale first.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
MikeFF On the basis of the reflection of sky theory, I painted the ceiling of the layout room blue. I actually painted the whole room blue and them worked it progressively lighter down to the almost white at the horizon. If I'm on schedule, which is seldom, I'll get the river done this winter and see what it looks like. Scenery maste rGeorge Sellios took several attempts to get the water in his harbor right, so I guess you just keep experimenting.
Mike
I would urge you to mix two parts medium grey paint with one part blue, and paint the bottom of your river with that. When it dries, add some black to the first mix, not much, and paint a broad band near the middle of the first layer, but vary its edges a bit, not jagged, but flowing. If you wish for a deeper look, use black to make a thinner streak dead center, but also flowing.
Once that dries, use painters' tape to dam any open edges, and then use your medium poured over the painted bottom, trying for no layers over about 1/8" thick. Two layers should be lots, but you may want more. Also, if you want a more natural look for brackish water or water with silt and organics suspended in it, you can dye your medium with a little dollop, say 1/8 tsp, of Hauser Medium Green from the crafts section at Wally's, the small plastic bottles of acrylic liquid craft paints, and add about half as much again, just a tiny drop, of yellow paint to that. Your water will look like slower moving summer water. Otherwise, leave it clear.
Over the cured surface of your medium, paint a thin layer of gel gloss medium, looks white like cold cream and comes in a white jar often, like Nivea Cream. Spread it, and then turn your foam brush on its side and gently stipple. Turn the brush handle to different angles.
The gel medium can take several days for the last of the whitish peaks to go clear, so don't be alarmed.
For low angle photographs of your lake or river, you should hope that you have a white or a slightly sky-blue reflection showing on your stippled surface. From a canoe or a boat, even standing on a bridge, as you look further away from your position, the water will be a stippled reflection of the sky. Only looking down, with your back to the sun, will you see brownish lake water due to tannins, maybe greenish river water.
You should have brought your fishing gear!
Crandell
I use Envirotex, too, and I add a bit of paint to lightly tint the water. This makes the water "optically thick" and avoids the clear-as-glass look. For shallow running water, you probably want it to look crystal clear, but deeper ponds and lakes look better if you can't see clearly to the bottom.