Maxed out, a question for operators

[wm3798]

 

The weisenheimer in me would offer the simple solution of replacing your HO track with N scale, allowing you to more than double your capacity!  But understanding that things being what they is, that's not likely to happen.

One thought might be to see if there's a way to shorten the yard a bit, but add a few more tracks.  It's always better to have more tracks than longer ones, in my estimation.  I believe the solutions offered so far regarding rotating the industries to be served makes the most sense.

My layout represents some major bridge traffic in addition to the local stuff, so I have to account for 4 primary destinations off the layout to the east, as well as two to the west.  This on top of a modeled subdivision with its own yard and industries, and a number of on-line switching opportunities.  So I need a lot of tracks just to sort the transfers going from Point A to Point B (or C, D or E).

The tracks on the far left are the two mains with a long controlled siding at far left,  next are two long A/D tracks, where local trains are broken down and built.  To the right of that is the Piggy Back ramp track, with a second for overflow and/or auto racks, which is also the first of 10 class tracks.  It gets pretty busy in there, but so far this arrangement has worked pretty well. 

Oh, and just make you HO guys jealous, all 16 tracks fit on a platform around 30" wide!

The A/D tracks are long enough to build a 25 car train with 2-3 locos and a caboose, too.

Lee

[jmbjmb]

Here's a thought, though it may or may not work in your situation, but I'm using it to help design my ops scheme and even to help with track planning.  I do a simulation in excel by setting up a spreadsheet showing the industries I expect to serve and the average carloads shipped and received by each over the course of a week.  I also factor in the empties to be picked up.  By making realistic assumptions on how much an industry needs I can then get an idea of how many cars are needed in trains serving that area.  The interesting part, unless I'm thinking about some high volume industry or a dense packed industrial park, is how often and for how long many of those tracks actually stand empty.  There hard part isn't designing in how to handles all the car movements, but designing in enough business to make operations interesting without resorting to puzzle switching.

At least since my favorite modeling is a branch line, I don't have to justify a lot of car movements.

[jacon12]

 

"The key is to learn the best industry rotation that fills your needs."

Larry, you're right.  I'm using a car card and waybill system that works quite well but I've added a couple of industries here and there, move things around a little so I redid all my waybills to reflect the new stuff.  Now I just have to fine tune it.

Jarrell 

 

BRAKIE

Jarrell,Why wabash your yard?

Here's what I do on my switching layouts so I won't wabash myself..

I rotate industries that is switched.After all it can take up to two days to unload a covered hopper or tank cars into silos used for production.It can take up to two days to manually  unload a boxcar..It takes time to unload cars and get the empties released and on pickup orders-remember a car may be unloaded today and may not be picked up by a local crew under the next day or in some cases two days after the car is released. Also recall some industries won't recieve cars every day.

The key is to learn the best industry rotation that fills your needs.

[BRAKIE]

Jarrell,Why wabash your yard?

Here's what I do on my switching layouts so I won't wabash myself..

I rotate industries that is switched.After all it can take up to two days to unload a covered hopper or tank cars into silos used for production.It can take up to two days to manually  unload a boxcar..It takes time to unload cars and get the empties released and on pickup orders-remember a car may be unloaded today and may not be picked up by a local crew under the next day or in some cases two days after the car is released. Also recall some industries won't recieve cars every day.

The key is to learn the best industry rotation that fills your needs.

[trainnut1250]

Jarrell,

Sounds as if you are setting up the operations scheme for your layout???

From my experience, I would say that you will go through lots of trial and error to get the flow right for your particular layout.  On my own layout and others that I operate on, I have fine tuned and watched others fine tune the schedule and train patterns to make things work more smoothly.  This process is never done....

I would agree that part of the answer to your current situation is to cut down on the size of the trains that come into the yard.  Most of the layouts I run on have 5-10 car trains.  We have lots of fun setting out one car as opposed to five.....

Once you have a rough plan in place, get some buddies over and see how it all works with real people.  Take some notes and make adjustments.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  One piece of advice from a local operations guru:  "Operate early (in the layout construction) and often". 

One of the best examples of a small car count (relative term) layout that has great operations is Dave Adams On3 Durlin Branch - Google him.  He has written many OPs articles over the years for various magazines (including MR).  His layout and operations are a good example of the less is more concept.

A word of caution:  One of the major things that caused me to tear out my old layout was the desire to have ops on the layout.  It can be very difficult sometimes to get satisfactory operations on a layout that wasn't designed for ops in the first place.  I got pretty dis-satisfied with my old trackplan and started over.  Hopefully this won't happen to you....

Have fun,

Guy

[ratled]

Sounds like someone got bit hard by the Operating bug.  I will say there is some great advice here already and follow up with this - The OP SIG is great place to get to see how others do things and run some great trains.  Well worth your time.  I can't say enough about them

Byron has an article on his site worth your time http://layoutvision.com/id19.html  if you haven't seen it or it's been a while since you have read it.  Also, Craig Bisgeier has this article also worthy of your time http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html   These will help somewhat.

Also, something to ponder - have you considered changing the yard to single ended?  It could probably double the capacity of the yard.    You could extend out a little too.  Yea I know it won't look as cool but when it comes to yards works well is far better than looks better 

ratled

 

 

 

[gandydancer19]

I have the same situation that you have.  Three yard tracks that hold about 20 or so cars.

What I have done is to limit the length of my trains.  I consider a train length to be 7 to 8 cars max.  There is also a formula "out there" for calculating how many cars is the optimum for a layout.  This is based on the length of all yard and industry tracks.

I don't know if you operate by yourself or with others, but I started by operating by myself.  So that the cars picked up and switched would be a surprise to me, I started using a computer operating program.  I chose one called Rail Op.  There are others out there as well.  Since the computer picks the cars to put in a train, and also picks what cars are to be picked up from what industries, I don't have to plan ahead.  I just become the engineer spotting cars.  The computer keeps track of the cars and how long they have been in one place, where they need to go, and moves them accordingly.

It also helps if your layout has an interchange track or two.  That gives you one or two more trains to run.

[jacon12]

 

Byron, thank you for your input.  I have to keep in mind that every car does not have to be switched every time.

Jarrell

cuyama

Others have provided great advice from actual operating experience.

Every car that moves need not go through the yard during the session. Start a train, already blocked to do its work, that can come and go directly  from/to staging. Or even just start and finish on the visible layout, if you don't have staging.

When a yard becomes more than half-full, it bogs down.

Every car need not move during a session. Imagine that some take more than one "day" to be "loaded" or "unloaded". Many real life industries are not (and were not) switched each day.

Variety is one key to interesting model railroad operation and it can be incorporated with even a smaller number of cars.

The model railroad Operations Special Interest Group is a great resource.

Byron

[jacon12]

 

  "You say you have two trains. Do they run at tha same time? Where do they go? Is it a loop where there is a clockwide train that ends up back at the yard and a counterclockwise train ends up back at the yard?"  

Yes, it is a loop, one going clockwise, the other counter to that... at the same time.  There are a couple of passing sidings.   They return to the only yard on the layout, which also has a switcher lead track that also doubles as the interchange track.   See the yard in the image below.  The two tracks leading off the yard going to the right proceed on to the roundhouse/turntable etc. that is located in the middle and taking up most of that bottom right hand loop.  Maybe you can see the switcher lead on the left side of the yard as it curves and goes parallel to the main.  This is an old drawing, other spurs have been added since but the yard area is basically the same.

 

"  Where do the cars going to the industries come from? Is there a staging yard that sources inbound cars? " 

The cars from the interchange track/switch lead and from the industries on the layout.  There is no staging yard.

 "  So if you have a yard capacity of 24 cars and you keep it 1/2-2/3 full that means you should only have between 12 and 16 cars in the yard. If the cars at industry should equal the number of cars in the yard, then between the 21 industries, interchange and engine service areas you should only have 12 to 16 cars TOTAL. If you have separate staging tracks/yards you can have another 12-16 cars on staged trains in those yards. If you don't have staging you can only have 24-32 cars on the layout, if you do have staging then you can have 36-48 cars on the layout. Your indsutry jobs can COMBINED only spot about 12-16 cars."

I think you are exactly right and went straight to the heart of the problem

Thanks,

Jarrell

dehusman

 

jacon12:

 

Let's say you have a smallish to medium sized layout and your yard, a 3 track double ended, will hold about 24 cars max. You have about 21 industries (customers) to service, divided between a west bound and an eastbound train, and it is easy for the novice at operations to have a car or two parked at every industry waiting to be picked up, at least 2 or 3 on the inbound 'interchange' track and a couple in the yards' service area and coaling tower.

 

 

You say you have two trains. Do they run at tha same time? Where do they go? Is it a loop where there is a clockwide train that ends up back at the yard and a counterclockwise train ends up back at the yard? Are they turns that run out on the west half and return and on the east half and return? Do they go to a staging yard/track on opposite ends of the layout?

Where do the cars going to the industries come from? Is there a staging yard that sources inbound cars?

Where do the outbound from the industries go to? Is there a staging yard that takes outbound cars away?

Do the cars just come back to the yard and are recycled back out of the yard? (the switching yard is the staging yard)

It sounds like you have to stagger the trains. A train should only be as large as the shortest yard track. So assuming a 24 car yard that makes the yard tracks probably about 10 cars, 8 cars and 6 cars.

That means a typical train should be about 6-8 cars. You will have enough room to have a outbound train in each direction and a clear track or for a few hold cars. The jobs will have to be staggered so they aren't both in the yard at the same time.

Nothing says every car or industry has to be switched. Its OK to skip industries. So each train will set out only 6-8 cars and pick up only 6-8 cars. ALL the other cars will just sit at industry until the next set of trains run.

 

 

In this example the inbound trains could easily be bring in 20 cars PLUS the ones on the interchange track PLUS the ones from the service area, for a total of... we'll say 26 cars.

 

OK, so you know exactly what the problem is. Your trains are bringing in too many cars. Easy fix, you have 50 cars on the layout, take half of them off the layout. That will reduce your problem immediately. Or only switch half the industries. That will reduce your problem immediately. Any way you do it, figure out a way to bring in half the number of cars into the yard.

 

 

What is a good rule of thumb for the number of cars that should be spotted for pickup around a layout?

 

 

That isn't your problem. A good rule of thumb is one third of your cars should be at industry, one third on trains and one third in the yard. A good rule of thumb is keep your yard between 1/2 to 2/3 capacity.

So if you have a yard capacity of 24 cars and you keep it 1/2-2/3 full that means you should only have between 12 and 16 cars in the yard. If the cars at industry should equal the number of cars in the yard, then between the 21 industries, interchange and engine service areas you should only have 12 to 16 cars TOTAL. If you have separate staging tracks/yards you can have another 12-16 cars on staged trains in those yards. If you don't have staging you can only have 24-32 cars on the layout, if you do have staging then you can have 36-48 cars on the layout. Your indsutry jobs can COMBINED only spot about 12-16 cars.

Notice how even though I used two different methods, I got to a local about 6-8 cars long?

 

 

 

[wedudler]

And you, the layout owner, triggers the amount of moved cars with the waybills.

Wolfgang

[cuyama]

Others have provided great advice from actual operating experience.

Every car that moves need not go through the yard during the session. Start a train, already blocked to do its work, that can come and go directly  from/to staging. Or even just start and finish on the visible layout, if you don't have staging.

When a yard becomes more than half-full, it bogs down.

Every car need not move during a session. Imagine that some take more than one "day" to be "loaded" or "unloaded". Many real life industries are not (and were not) switched each day.

Variety is one key to interesting model railroad operation and it can be incorporated with even a smaller number of cars.

The model railroad Operations Special Interest Group is a great resource.

Byron

[wp8thsub]

jacon12

In this example the inbound trains could easily be bring in 20 cars PLUS the ones on the interchange track PLUS the ones from the service area, for a total of... we'll say 26 cars... which completely jams up the yard making it a nightmare, and probably impossible for the yard switcher to do its job of making up new trains for the next crew.  

If a yard experiences this kind of traffic flow, it's simply inadequate to do its job.  The problem isn't with the number of cars at the industries, interchange, etc.  Customers need to receive/ship the appropriate numbers of cars for their business, which shouldn't be controlled based on the yard's limitations. If expanding the yard isn't an option, revising the traffic pattern to drastically reduce its burden should be.  Block swaps with the locals can occur elsewhere.

What is a good rule of thumb for the number of cars that should be spotted for pickup around a layout?

There really isn't one.  Industry traffic varies on the prototype and easily can on our layouts.  The key is more to manage the trains and design the physical plant to be appropriate to that traffic. 

[ns3010]

Between the two yard tracks where I stage my local, I can stage two locomotives and eleven cars for the local. This number is fine, because a much longer train would look way out of place on my layout, since I don't want the head end chasing its own FRED. Also, I can't foul the lead coming from the other staging yard (my staging is somewhat complex, due to space limitations) because the passenger and stone trains need to come into and out of that staging yard. So that solves that.

I would like to keep that number steady, so if there is a day that one industry is not being switched, I will add a car or two to one or more of the other industries (depending on car types and lengths).

So, my rule of thumb is, to keep it interesting, keep enough cars to have the yard be full (occasionally, a few below capacity is OK, just to change things up), but never so many so as to foul the lead.

-Joe

[dehusman]

jacon12

Let's say you have a smallish to medium sized layout and your yard, a 3 track double ended, will hold about 24 cars max. You have about 21 industries (customers) to service, divided between a west bound and an eastbound train, and it is easy for the novice at operations to have a car or two parked at every industry waiting to be picked up, at least 2 or 3 on the inbound 'interchange' track and a couple in the yards' service area and coaling tower.

You say you have two trains. Do they run at tha same time? Where do they go? Is it a loop where there is a clockwide train that ends up back at the yard and a counterclockwise train ends up back at the yard? Are they turns that run out on the west half and return and on the east half and return? Do they go to a staging yard/track on opposite ends of the layout?

Where do the cars going to the industries come from? Is there a staging yard that sources inbound cars?

Where do the outbound from the industries go to? Is there a staging yard that takes outbound cars away?

Do the cars just come back to the yard and are recycled back out of the yard? (the switching yard is the staging yard)

It sounds like you have to stagger the trains. A train should only be as large as the shortest yard track. So assuming a 24 car yard that makes the yard tracks probably about 10 cars, 8 cars and 6 cars.

That means a typical train should be about 6-8 cars. You will have enough room to have a outbound train in each direction and a clear track or for a few hold cars. The jobs will have to be staggered so they aren't both in the yard at the same time.

Nothing says every car or industry has to be switched. Its OK to skip industries. So each train will set out only 6-8 cars and pick up only 6-8 cars. ALL the other cars will just sit at industry until the next set of trains run.

In this example the inbound trains could easily be bring in 20 cars PLUS the ones on the interchange track PLUS the ones from the service area, for a total of... we'll say 26 cars.

OK, so you know exactly what the problem is. Your trains are bringing in too many cars. Easy fix, you have 50 cars on the layout, take half of them off the layout. That will reduce your problem immediately. Or only switch half the industries. That will reduce your problem immediately. Any way you do it, figure out a way to bring in half the number of cars into the yard.

What is a good rule of thumb for the number of cars that should be spotted for pickup around a layout?

That isn't your problem. A good rule of thumb is one third of your cars should be at industry, one third on trains and one third in the yard. A good rule of thumb is keep your yard between 1/2 to 2/3 capacity.

So if you have a yard capacity of 24 cars and you keep it 1/2-2/3 full that means you should only have between 12 and 16 cars in the yard. If the cars at industry should equal the number of cars in the yard, then between the 21 industries, interchange and engine service areas you should only have 12 to 16 cars TOTAL. If you have separate staging tracks/yards you can have another 12-16 cars on staged trains in those yards. If you don't have staging you can only have 24-32 cars on the layout, if you do have staging then you can have 36-48 cars on the layout. Your indsutry jobs can COMBINED only spot about 12-16 cars.

Notice how even though I used two different methods, I got to a local about 6-8 cars long?

[orsonroy]

Hi Jarrell,

You've actually got two questions here:

1) Number of cars spotted on the layout?

2) Number of cars ready for pickup on the layout?

Number one is easy: load up every siding to the max; it doesn't matter. What matters is number two: cars READY for pickup.

I forget what the specific time was, but each shipper had a specific number of "free days" available once the car was spotted in order to unload it. Don't quote me, but I think that was two days from the time the car was parked "on spot" or was on the customer's property. Some customers needed more time to load or unload a car, which is where demurrage rates came into effect. Lots of companies would eat those rates to suit their own needs. Sometimes emptied cars that were called in for pickup were left where they were by the railroad, since the local railroad didn't have the time or space to handle it at that moment. Off-spotting on a handy siding, runaround or even passing siding was also far more common that modelers think, so if a yard's at capacity (not FULL) a local crew could be told to shove cars somewhere down the line for pickup to the yard later.

Additionally, railroads would pre-position cars at or near a customer for future use. I'm thinking specifically about tight boxcars for grain loading during the various seasonal rushes here, but I think hoppers and gons at steel mills, and even loaded hoppers with coal for power plants could be in the same category. Those cars could sitt around for WEEKS before getting loaded, but they'd still be taking up siding space.

So a good rule of thumb for pickups? There isn't one. Just like there isn't an answer to "how many foreign road cars should I have on my layout?", there's no good way of predicting how many cars will be called in during a single day. Using some sort of average isn't any good, since it makes the jobs on the layout the same every time it's operated (leading to boredom). In the real world I'm sure that Mondays and Fridays were busy freight days, while Saturday, Sunday and Thursday were almost dead. I suppose you could start off with a "three days after spotting" rule of thumb (the third day is one day after the car was called in), but I think that a smarter way would be to figure out an average for each individual industry (one day to five days, or whatever) and apply that logic. Either that or just roll a die each time a car is spotted, and use that as the determining factor for when it needs to be picked up!

[papasmurf]

This was a suggestion, offered some years ago on an MRR OP forum. It might  help in some OP session situations: If you have an area of concentrated industries AND nearby trackside spot with enough room to lay a spur, this could be used as overflow track, when conditions become dire [ MTS spotted here for later pickup/ some loads for same industry temporarily spotted here to relieve switching turn workload ]. Suggested scenario: Spur was to abandoned industry, is now weed-grown, remnants of old plant visible thru heavy foliage, spur had track gate, now hanging askew on hinges. Gives modeler a bit of scenic license and justifies the spur's existence. TTFN......papaHOsmurf

[cmrproducts]

It has been recommended in the Hobby Press that a yard to have only half of the maximum capacity of cars in it other wise the yard will be so full of cars that it will be almost impossible to do any switching to make up or tear down trains!

I have found this to be quite true on my current layout.

My main yard has 5 yard tracks plus 4 holding tracks that trains are held prior to the beginning of the OPs session.

As these trains leave it gives the Yard OP room to make up other needed trains throughout the session.

We try and keep at least 3 tracks empty during the session but as the session comes to a close the final trains are just brought in and dropped

The Yard OP comes in about a 1/2 hour before the next session and begins breaking down the last sessions trains and getting them classified!

BOB H - Clarion, PA

[jacon12]

Let's say you have a smallish to medium sized layout and your yard, a 3 track double ended,  will hold about 24 cars max.  You have about 21 industries (customers) to service, divided between a west bound and an eastbound train, and it is easy for the novice at operations to have a car or two parked at every industry waiting to be picked up, at least 2 or 3 on the inbound 'interchange' track and a couple in the yards' service area and coaling tower.

In this example the inbound trains could easily be bring in 20 cars PLUS the ones on the interchange track PLUS the ones from the service area, for a total of... we'll say 26 cars... which completely jams up the yard making it a nightmare, and probably impossible for the yard switcher to do its job of making up new trains for the next crew.  This layout uses car cards with 4 sided waybills.

What is a good rule of thumb for the number of cars that should be spotted for pickup around a layout?

Jarrell