Origion of Scale designations is there a rhyme and reason ?

[Anonymous]

I'm curious as to the origion of Scale designations and their meanings. IE: We have "O" then HO did HO at one time mean 1/2 "O" ? What about the others, especially the rare ones like TT and OOO ? Thanks for any feedback on this. Dave

[der5997]

I think you are right about HO being 1/2 O Why O though?
N is, I think, N(ine) millimeter, the gauge used in the UK . That works out to be 1/160th scale, or there abouts. But then, they have OO, or Double O as it was called at any rate when I was a lad, which is 1/2 O, and larger than HO scale in North America, but the same gauge . Go figure!
G is perhaps G(arden)
Time for Tea, or is that TT? :D

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm not sure I have the whole story, but I can add to what has been said. "O" did not start out as the letter O, it was really 0 {zero). There is a larger size of train that was common back in the 20's and 30's called 1. These may still be valid European designations. That line of reasoning would make 00 and 000 the next logical smaller sizes.

I'm not sure what proportion those designations represent. Here in the US "O" has come to mean 1:48 or 1/4" to the foot, but the distance between the rails is a little off. Real railroads rails are considered standard gauge at 4' 8-1/2".

The proportion of the trains is called SCALE, and the distance between the rails is called Gauge.

We had a huge discussion about scale and gauge back when I first started posting here. Some of the information you seek came out in that topic, though I didn't see the long list of scales that I was looking for when I reviewed it.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11451

This was where I learned to spell, the word guage GAUGE. [#oops]

By the way TT stands for Table Top, go figure.[swg]

If you like alphabet soup, try this topic.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9893

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the link Big-Boy. I read it all, very interesting. Still no answer for "S" scale , smaller ? Thanks again. Dave

[Big_Boy_4005]

You're welcome Dave. There are still a lot of mysterious sounding sizes of trains out there. G seems to be a real catch all. I liked that part about "Gummi", it sounds a lot nicer than Garbage. [swg]

I have nothing against G. I even have a few Lionel large scale trains that come out at Christmas, but I have no clue as to the proportion of the models. At one time I was even considering doing a Garden railroad, but I like hanging out in the basement better.

[IRONROOSTER]

S scale was started by Cleveland Model Supply and was originally called CD for Cleveland Design - this link http://www.trainweb.org/crocon/sinfo.html has the details. When it was adopted by the NMRA the designation was changed to S probably to avoid the commercial name. S may come from Seveneights (the orgtinal gauge) or three Sixteenths - the scale. Interestingly in England it was originally called H1 for Half 1 scale.

OO was started in England because the HO (Half O) models of English locomotives (which are smaller than US locos) were too small for the motors available (pre WWII) so they bumped the scale from 3.5 mm to the foot to 4 mm, but left the track gauge the same. This is why most English models are labeled HO/OO. American OO changed the track gauge to .750 inches to be more correct.

O scale did indeed start as 0 (zero) but was 7 mm to the foot (about 1/43.5) in England where it started. When it came to this country the scale was changed to 1/48 but the track gauge was left at 1.25". There was an early effort by some to change the scale to 17/64 to match the track gauge but this never really caught on. It was called Q, but I don't know why. I think some of the proto48 modelers are using a 1.17" track gauge.

Treble O or OOO was an early attempt at a small gauge - I think this started at 1/144. But it was later supplanted by N at 1/160.

Z was presumbably picked because it's the last letter and this is the smallest possible scale - at least according to Marklin who started it.

TT was started by Hal Joyce after WWII. A number of locos and cars were made then. It kind of faded from view, but became popular in Eartern Europe. It is having a bit of a revival and there are a few maufacturers producing kits in the U.S.

Enjoy
Paul.

[DSchmitt]

S Scale designation

The following quote is from this site: http://www.s-scale.org.uk/history.htm

"The same period, though, did see some practical developments on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. In 1937 the Cleveland Model and Supply Co., who were manufacturers of wooden aeroplane kits, decided to enter the model railway market. Their scale chosen was 3/16" to one foot (75% of American O-gauge) on 7/8" track gauge, and was marketed as being the "100% American Scale" and known as 'C-D' gauge. This name was derived from the first and last letters of the company's home town. The models were non-working kits using similar materials and constructional methods to their aircraft kits with the wood parts pre-printed in colour. The attractions of the scale were not lost on other companies and in 1946 A C Gilbert introduced the American Flyer powered models in direct competition with the O-gauge products of Lionel who subsequently acquired American Flyer. Not wanting to boost Cleveland's sales, it was necessary to drop the 'C-D' appellation, and thus the scale designation "S-gauge" was coined - the "S" said to be derived from 'sixteenths' and 'sixty-fourths', the latter being the scale ratio. It is from the early American commercial adoption of the scale that derives the legend that 'S' is a wholly American scale!"

[Anonymous]

Actually there were a number of larger numbered gauges, #5 through #1, with #5 being the largest. #1 is the only one to survive to today (G scale is #1 Gauge), O was a smaller version, ) to the next larger 1, and HO was Half O Gauge (But not half O scale, as O scale was broad gauge). TT means tabletop, Z was picked due to it being the last letter of the alphabet (As Z is the smallest scale), I have no idea about N, and S scale just got a better explanation than I can give.

The G designation comes from the G in LGB.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt


S Scale designation

The following quote is from this site: http://www.s-scale.org.uk/history.htm

"The same period, though, did see some practical developments on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. In 1937 the Cleveland Model and Supply Co., who were manufacturers of wooden aeroplane kits, decided to enter the model railway market. Their scale chosen was 3/16" to one foot (75% of American O-gauge) on 7/8" track gauge, and was marketed as being the "100% American Scale" and known as 'C-D' gauge. This name was derived from the first and last letters of the company's home town. The models were non-working kits using similar materials and constructional methods to their aircraft kits with the wood parts pre-printed in colour. The attractions of the scale were not lost on other companies and in 1946 A C Gilbert introduced the American Flyer powered models in direct competition with the O-gauge products of Lionel who subsequently acquired American Flyer. Not wanting to boost Cleveland's sales, it was necessary to drop the 'C-D' appellation, and thus the scale designation "S-gauge" was coined - the "S" said to be derived from 'sixteenths' and 'sixty-fourths', the latter being the scale ratio. It is from the early American commercial adoption of the scale that derives the legend that 'S' is a wholly American scale!"

A couple of details to add to that. First, prior to WWII AC Gilbert made O gauge trains, in direct competition with Lionel. After the war they switched to S, and continued to make them 1965 or 66. Lionel subsequently bought the tooling and "sat" on it until they were bought out in 1969 by General Mills (yes, Betty Crocker and Wheaties). In 1980 Lionel (General Mills) dragged out the old molds and restarted production.

Also if I'm not mistaken Lionel's "Standard" gauge was a perversion of #1 gauge which some of the other manufacturers in the 20's and 30's also used. Historicly the limiting factor of model train size has always been motor size.

In 1934 there were a couple of noteworthy events. Al Kalmbach started Model Railroader Magazine, and he and William Walthers and a few other people founded the NMRA. It must have been frustrating back then to have so many different companies in both Europe and the US making things that didn't work together. In the end it has really been the efforts of the NMRA that have brought any semblence of order to the list of scales we have today.

If you stop and think about it, anyone can invent a new scale and do it on their own, but it takes some kind of standard to make it gain acceptance with a large audience. I could start modeling in "E " scale just by choosing an unused letter of the alphabet. I like round numbers and the metric system, so the scale will be 1:100, smaller than HO but bigger than TT. Any takers?[8] I didn't think so.[swg]

[DSchmitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

Originally posted by DSchmitt


If you stop and think about it, anyone can invent a new scale and do it on their own, but it takes some kind of standard to make it gain acceptance with a large audience. I could start modeling in "E " scale just by choosing an unused letter of the alphabet.

In the 1970's there were E Trains (a brand name used by a German company) they were 1/32 scale narrow gauge (I don't remember the track gauge). At the time I thought the equipment would be a good basis for a suger cane hauling railroad. The line has disipeared at least in the US.

A British company makes some very nice 1/32 scale US and British prototype Word War 1 2-foot gauge locos and cars.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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