That old style of all black wire for the house wiring is one reason why, while I love the look and design of old houses, I'll never buy one unless the electrical has all been upgraded. Back in the days they were built, there was no ground loop issue with multiple electronic devices. If you plug your PC into an outlet where the left blade is connected to the neutral side and the printer into an outlet where the left blade is connected to the neutral you're asking for all sorts of ground loop problems. Or your TV and cable box - that oen even more because the cable is often independently grounded. Or phone things - phone wiring is usually grounded at the network interface box, if you then plug in a powered phone device like a cordless or an answering machine, and the side that is supposed to be neutral (on modern plugs where one blade is wider to polarize them) is actually on the hot side because in the 1930's it didn't really matter, you may have problems. Scary stuff, and improper grouning is often the cause of wierd electronic 'gremlins' like computers that spontaneously reboot. Those handy little outlet testers with the LEDs will quickly tell you if the hot, neutral, and ground are all wired properly.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Sorry Johnnny_reb but I have been watching this thread for a while and I just can't resist - I get a stool for them!!!
The other advice is good too!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
7j43k CTValleyRR: I had this problem in my old house. The contractor obviously had loads of black wire on hand, so both live wires and the ground were all black. House wiring used black wires up until very approximately the '30's. Then they started using white wire for the neutral (grounded conductor). When romex came in after WWII, you got a white wire whether you wanted it or not--it came with it. My house (built in 1912) was wired with all black wire when it was built. It works just fine. Of course, being an electrical contractor, I know how to work with it. This isn't to say some idiot somewhere didn't get stunningly creative. But most houses are inspected when they're newly built, and an honest competent inspector would never allow such an "unusual" approach. If you hired some "guy" yourself, it sounds like you hired the wrong one. Ed
CTValleyRR: I had this problem in my old house. The contractor obviously had loads of black wire on hand, so both live wires and the ground were all black.
I had this problem in my old house. The contractor obviously had loads of black wire on hand, so both live wires and the ground were all black.
House wiring used black wires up until very approximately the '30's. Then they started using white wire for the neutral (grounded conductor). When romex came in after WWII, you got a white wire whether you wanted it or not--it came with it. My house (built in 1912) was wired with all black wire when it was built. It works just fine. Of course, being an electrical contractor, I know how to work with it.
This isn't to say some idiot somewhere didn't get stunningly creative. But most houses are inspected when they're newly built, and an honest competent inspector would never allow such an "unusual" approach. If you hired some "guy" yourself, it sounds like you hired the wrong one.
Ed
House was built in 1991 and supposedly inspected and passed by the City of Chesapeake, VA. Although I was the first owner, it was built and inspected before I bought it. At the time, everyone said, "Oh, yeah, the wire with the ridge on it is the ground." Except that none of them did.
You figure that one out. Ever watch Holmes on Homes?
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Johnnny_reb Thanks guys. The only time such a system makes sense would be on a large club layout where mutable operators and trains are running.
Thanks guys.
The only time such a system makes sense would be on a large club layout where mutable operators and trains are running.
-Morgan
As stated most electrical shorts are operator error. On a home layout most of you will not use a short management system. The only time such a system makes sense would be on a large club layout where mutable operators and trains are running. Then the only benefit is that the whole system does not shut down when someone runs a switch set against they. Letting the rest of the layout stay running. While the "tell tail" light shows the shorts location for anyone in the area to see. And saves the track from an operator walling off and letting the track over heat melting crossties.
The point is that most DCC systems have a circuit breaker built-in. If let to do it's job the normal home setup will be fine with this built-in breaker. So unless you run operating sections with lots of people and a few fuzzy heads, you will never need any other short management system.
But! If it makes you fill better to have one in place then by all means it's your Railroad do as you please.
Johnnny_reb Once a word is spoken it can not be unspoken!
My Train Page My Photobucket Page My YouTube Channel
I test thoroughly as I install track and wiring - one section at a time. That eliminates shorts from wiring mistakes. Since I'm a solo operator, operating mistakes are infrequent and easily solved as they happen.
Enjoy
Paul
CTValleyRR I had this problem in my old house. The contractor obviously had loads of black wire on hand, so both live wires and the ground were all black.
Love the comments guys,
On the club layout, our DCC system is in 8 blocks, When it shorts, if we cannot pull the right loco, we can see which block is shorting because the light on the DCC board will blink for that block. Usually thoughm it's easy nough to figure out which engfine or cars shorted.
We had a guy who left an engineon the track shorting for so long, he melted the ties under the rails.
rrinker DCC is a very simple wiring system that should eliminate wiring shorts - all you have to do is hook the red wire to the red wire and the white wire to the white wire. But even this can confuse people. Now if you subscribe to the theory that "if it's red, it's wire" method of wiring then all bets are off. Hmm, is this red wire the right rail, or is that red wire the right rail? --Randy
DCC is a very simple wiring system that should eliminate wiring shorts - all you have to do is hook the red wire to the red wire and the white wire to the white wire. But even this can confuse people.
Now if you subscribe to the theory that "if it's red, it's wire" method of wiring then all bets are off. Hmm, is this red wire the right rail, or is that red wire the right rail?
I got that beat..2 black wires from my MRC Tech II to the terminal track..Doesn't matter which wire is which as long as the engine moves in the direction the direction switch is in.A simple touch test reveals that.
Now,my MRC Tech 6 will be wired in the same manner.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I had this problem in my old house. The contractor obviously had loads of black wire on hand, so both live wires and the ground were all black. Made electrical installations nearly impossible (I tried to install a dimmer switch and blew out 1/4 of the downstairs).
I'm operating DCC, and all my shorts are caused by me.... either by running through points set against the train, or leaving something on the rails. If I could somehow make me less careless, I'd have solved the problem.
As far as shorts...May I ask what shorts?
I use a simple wiring system on my switching layouts which eliminates wiring shorts completely.
Now shorts cause by operator error is minimal at best.
I usually have to stand and tug them back down after they've been riding up on me.
Jim
None of the people on my model railroad are very tall....
I manage the unruly ones by glueing their feet in place.
Bill
There are two kinds of shorts. I have a problem with electrical shorts and I am undoing the wiring of my half-completed layout section bit by bit to track them down.
The other kind of shorts are BVDs and Fruit of the Loom. These shorts can cause a problem if their pictures gets out on the internet. You can't ever track them all down. I am not going to let any of these shorts of mine get on the internet, not even here.
Oh.
I thought you were talking about dealing with people like my old boss. Nice guy, by the way.
Johnnny_reb As a model railroader how do you manage the shorts (when you have one) on your model rr system?
As a model railroader how do you manage the shorts (when you have one) on your model rr system?
There are two main categories of shorts.- Those caused by running equipment, or trains shorting out at closed turnouts and derailments.- And then those that are caused by incorrect wiring, and lack of rail gaps at places where they are required as one is building and wiring their layout.Which do you want to discuss or have a problem with?(And maybe the DCC and Electronics section is a better place for this topic.)
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Randy's right. Shorts have causes. Find them and fix them.
Good "management," of course, implies a pro-active policy of problem avoidance and risk mitigation. (Yeah, I read Dilbert every day.) For that, I've got my layout split into 5 districts, 3 protected by circuit breakers and 2 by auto-reversers, all from Tony's Trains. I've reserved a 4th breaker for Phase 3, which isn't even on paper or disk yet.
And I don't leave tools, quarters or Kadee coupler gauges on the track.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Only time I get a short is if I do something stupid and run through a turnout set against me and it derails my loco. Solution: align turnout properly, rerail loco, and smack self on head.
I'm in DC, shut all blocks off, then try each one until I find the right one. Search the block until I find it. If you can disconnect the feeder wires from the buss, you can tell if it is wiring or track, I think larger DCC layouts have seperate power districts, think they would do about the same.
Good luck,
Richard