Proto 2000 is a Pain in the neck!!!

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RMax1

I wanted to buy a few E8/9 sets when they where released . I could only afford 2 sets and wanted 4. I got my 2 and the other 2 I was unable to get.. So now I'm out of luck unless I pay a premium or full list price. Basically their attitude is oh well. There was about a 2 week window of opportunity. So i got this bright idea. What if I could get a shell and use it on one of the units I already have or buy a less popular one. I'd have 1 and a half locomotives. (etc.etc.) - RMax

Dear 'What If':
If you buy 2 cheap and pay more for the rest, it averages out. Supposed you bought 2 at list and found 2 more at discount? Are two 'GOOD' engines, and 2 are 'BAD'?

You can buy a different road and paint them. it's a hobby.
You can wait for a re-run
You can buy used.
You can buy a different brand (but not recommended)

Over the years that's what most of us have done.

[Anonymous]

Try Trainworld - they always have some of the best deals on the continent. Super folks to deal with.

[tyamada]

[:)] You might try hobbylink.com, they have som proto 2k E8/9 in single engine and A/B sets for about $73.00 and $147.00 respecatively

[darth9x9]

Hey RMax1,

As mentioned before, check eBay. Also check M.B.Kleins at www.modeltrainstuff.com. They always seem to have lots of P2K and Atlas stock when the rest of the world is sold out.

BC

[Anonymous]

Well put, Bill Mathewson, ......and bcammack, too....!!!!![:D][:D]
Quite a few of the "brass vs.plastic" combatants need to stop eating so much white sugar with your Ritalin.[:0]
regards;
Mike

[AntonioFP45]

(re: Bill Matthewson)

QUOTE:
He's right, you know. What's all this brouhaha over this manufacturer or that manufacturer? We're spoiled today. We have an incredible range of kits and RTR that make this aulde pharte think he's died and gone to heaven. Try taking a look at some MR's and RMC's from the 50's and 60's to see what was available then. Then try to put yourself in that era. This is the golden age, guys. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Andre

[#ditto]

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bill mathewson

The hostility and negativety here simply amazes me, and one unfortunately experiences it throughout this Forum lately. Why do you guys get all worked up, condemn each others particular preference for brass vs plastic, Kadee over Atlas, or even complain about LL Proto2K's marketing policies?

Imagine model railroading without Proto 2K. LL's marketing policies are their policies, and how they have decided that they need to manage their business. Their out-of-production items can be found with a little dilligence. In this ready-to-run day and age, some folks expect instant gratification - in this case - a manufacturer, distributor, or a LHS to maintain stock on everything ever made. The business world doesn't function that way. Never has-never will.

This is a great hobby, and we are blessed now with more high quality products that appeal to different price segments than ever before. Yes, brass is expensive, and many run poorly. If one doesn't paint them, they often tarnish and deteriorate over time, esp. in certain climates. Some brass folks condemn those who paint their brass equipment. And vice versa. Some model railroaders swear by Broadway Ltd. and scorn Proto2K, while others criticize Spectrum, Atlas, etc. Even the "blue-boxers" berate MDC, who snear at Model Power, and on and on.

Why?

Not everyone can afford brass models, or even can justify having just one. To them, a Proto 2K or Spectrum engine is a splurge, and something they have to save up to purchase, perhaps, even a used one. Model railroading isn't the exclusive domain of the independently wealthy, the elitest & snobby, or even those who choose to spend all their money on this hobby. Lots of us have other interests, hobbies, and financial limitations and responsibilities - like family, medical, possibly a fixed-income, and prudent investing for those needs, and eventual retirement.

Some people get jazzed by just having a train set run around the tree at Christmas time. Is that okay? What do you think? Isn't this about having fun with trains, no matter what ones level of involvement, financial means, or interests are. Are Tinplaters bad people? Are rivet counters to be avoided, or do they set an unattainable standard that others should be judged by? Does the guy that runs an 80+ foot autorack behind a 4-6-4 irk you? Do you have to wear an engineer's hat when you run your trains? God forbid if you have but an oval, a continuous run, or even your main double-backs thru the same scene !

And everything costs more than it used to, but the quality and overall accuracy of most items blows away what was available only ten or fifteen years ago. Some items like the "blue boxes" are overpriced compared to other products, although they can be still picked up enmass at trainshows - in kit form - at very affordable prices. I had a bunch of them - incl. passenger cars priced in the $5. range - for sale at a show just last week, that I brought back home - again. There isn't a shortage out there - it's just been hyped-up beyond belief by the sky-is-falling crowd. That the "blue box" kits were originally offered for less than $1. is totally irrelevent, for that was when the minimum wage was $1.15, and that was when a new Chevy cost less than $2500. out the door.

End of my monthly rant. Go play with your trains and have a good time - if you can. . .
BILL

He's right, you know. What's all this brouhaha over this manufacturer or that manufacturer? We're spoiled today. We have an incredible range of kits and RTR that make this aulde pharte think he's died and gone to heaven. Try taking a look at some MR's and RMC's from the 50's and 60's to see what was available then. Then try to put yourself in that era. This is the golden age, guys. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Andre

[bcammack]

"I was on trains.com last night and the Atlas HO forum suddenly broke out!" [:D]

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bill mathewson

The hostility and negativety here simply amazes me, and one unfortunately experiences it throughout this Forum lately. Why do you guys get all worked up, condemn each others particular preference for brass vs plastic, Kadee over Atlas, or even complain about LL Proto2K's marketing policies?

In this ready-to-run day and age, some folks expect instant gratification - in this case - a manufacturer, distributor, or a LHS to maintain stock on everything ever made. The business world doesn't function that way. Never has-never will.

This is a great hobby, and we are blessed now with more high quality products that appeal to different price segments than ever before. Yes, brass is expensive, and many run poorly. If one doesn't paint them, they often tarnish and deteriorate over time, esp. in certain climates. Some brass folks condemn those who paint their brass equipment. And vice versa. Some model railroaders swear by Broadway Ltd. and scorn Proto2K, while others criticize Spectrum, Atlas, etc. Even the "blue-boxers" berate MDC, who snear at Model Power, and on and on.

Why?

Not everyone can afford brass models, or even can justify having just one. To them, a Proto 2K or Spectrum engine is a splurge, and something they have to save up to purchase, perhaps, even a used one. Model railroading isn't the exclusive domain of the independently wealthy, the elitest & snobby, or even those who choose to spend all their money on this hobby. Lots of us have other interests, hobbies, and financial limitations and responsibilities - like family, medical, possibly a fixed-income, and prudent investing for those needs, and eventual retirement.

Some people get jazzed by just having a train set run around the tree at Christmas time. Is that okay? What do you think? Isn't this about having fun with trains, no matter what ones level of involvement, financial means, or interests are. Are Tinplaters bad people? Are rivet counters to be avoided, or do they set an unattainable standard that others should be judged by? Does the guy that runs an 80+ foot autorack behind a 4-6-4 irk you? Do you have to wear an engineer's hat when you run your trains? God forbid if you have but an oval, a continuous run, or even your main double-backs thru the same scene !

And everything costs more than it used to, but the quality and overall accuracy of most items blows away what was available only ten or fifteen years ago.
End of my monthly rant. Go play with your trains and have a good time - if you can. . .
BILL

[#ditto][:D][4:-)][tup][C):-)][tup]

Bill, as always well thought out, unbiased, down to earth responses.

[Anonymous]

The hostility and negativety here simply amazes me, and one unfortunately experiences it throughout this Forum lately. Why do you guys get all worked up, condemn each others particular preference for brass vs plastic, Kadee over Atlas, or even complain about LL Proto2K's marketing policies?

Imagine model railroading without Proto 2K. LL's marketing policies are their policies, and how they have decided that they need to manage their business. Their out-of-production items can be found with a little dilligence. In this ready-to-run day and age, some folks expect instant gratification - in this case - a manufacturer, distributor, or a LHS to maintain stock on everything ever made. The business world doesn't function that way. Never has-never will.

This is a great hobby, and we are blessed now with more high quality products that appeal to different price segments than ever before. Yes, brass is expensive, and many run poorly. If one doesn't paint them, they often tarnish and deteriorate over time, esp. in certain climates. Some brass folks condemn those who paint their brass equipment. And vice versa. Some model railroaders swear by Broadway Ltd. and scorn Proto2K, while others criticize Spectrum, Atlas, etc. Even the "blue-boxers" berate MDC, who snear at Model Power, and on and on.

Why?

Not everyone can afford brass models, or even can justify having just one. To them, a Proto 2K or Spectrum engine is a splurge, and something they have to save up to purchase, perhaps, even a used one. Model railroading isn't the exclusive domain of the independently wealthy, the elitest & snobby, or even those who choose to spend all their money on this hobby. Lots of us have other interests, hobbies, and financial limitations and responsibilities - like family, medical, possibly a fixed-income, and prudent investing for those needs, and eventual retirement.

Some people get jazzed by just having a train set run around the tree at Christmas time. Is that okay? What do you think? Isn't this about having fun with trains, no matter what ones level of involvement, financial means, or interests are. Are Tinplaters bad people? Are rivet counters to be avoided, or do they set an unattainable standard that others should be judged by? Does the guy that runs an 80+ foot autorack behind a 4-6-4 irk you? Do you have to wear an engineer's hat when you run your trains? God forbid if you have but an oval, a continuous run, or even your main double-backs thru the same scene !

And everything costs more than it used to, but the quality and overall accuracy of most items blows away what was available only ten or fifteen years ago. Some items like the "blue boxes" are overpriced compared to other products, although they can be still picked up enmass at trainshows - in kit form - at very affordable prices. I had a bunch of them - incl. passenger cars priced in the $5. range - for sale at a show just last week, that I brought back home - again. There isn't a shortage out there - it's just been hyped-up beyond belief by the sky-is-falling crowd. That the "blue box" kits were originally offered for less than $1. is totally irrelevent, for that was when the minimum wage was $1.15, and that was when a new Chevy cost less than $2500. out the door.

End of my monthly rant. Go play with your trains and have a good time - if you can. . .
BILL

[twhite]

Seems we've gotten a little off-topic here on plastic vs. brass, haven't we? Thought we started out with the plastic 'limited run' problems from Proto2000. Actually, a few of you are right on about the 'limited run' syndrome--get people to pay premium prices right at first, then flood the market later. That's a standard marketing ploy and not only in the model railroad business. It's the old 'carrot on a stick in front of the horse' philosophy that's been around since the dear, departed Robber Barons of the 19th century. Now, when something comes out that I really WANT but don't really NEED just yet, I usually wait around for a couple of months, and lo and behold, it comes back on the market 'By Popular Demand' or something like that. BLI is doing it with their Hudson (new and improved), Lionel will be doing it with their Challenger and their Turbine, I understand, so be patient, folks. It's gonna be there again, eventually.

[BRAKIE]

One thing about Brass locomotives..One oops to the floor and in most cases they had it and junk box bound..So,I will stay with the" plastic junk" and you can keep your brass junk..[}:)]

I can recall when Athearn cars was $.99-1.25 and MR was 50 cents. A Hobbytown of Boston Body kit was $9.95 and the drive kit was $12.95 Brass locomotives was $21.95-69.95...Sadly those days are gone forever...And yes guys complain about the prices back then..I may be mistaken but it seems the early brass was "Limited Time Only" or "Limited Supply"..

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE:
Well I disagree with you on everything here; the Korea brass locomotives are light years ahead of that plastic junk you call models.

[V]

Today's brass units are very attractive but up unitl a few years ago, most of them were "rough running" units. Years back I became excited when an HO U50 became available. My LHS rep told me back then "You wouldn't want it!" The thing runs like a Rock Crusher!" [:0]

Wow, guy! Plastic Junk? I'm not "downing you" but that's pretty abrasive!

With all due respect, they are models! Having been a teen modeler in the late 1970s I see, IMHO, that the new plastic models are "light years" ahead in workmanship, details, and performance. ( I was so shocked when P2K models first hit the market, with doors that opened!! That had been unheard of! Now it's no big deal----how quickly we become complacent! ) There will always be little problems "here and there" with plastic models as this is expected with anything made by man. [8)][:p]

Take Care! [;)]

[Anonymous]

Even if I COULD afford brass, I wouldn't buy it.

$1,200 for a hunk of soldered-together scrap metal is ridiculous, and the only R-T-R car I have has been modified. I don't bother with RTR, for the reason that half the time you have to change someting on them, plus if you like the high-end cars, I'm not about to pay $30 for a RTR car that I could build myself in a kit that might cost half as much.

And you're griping about limited runs in plastic, brass is far harder to get than any plastic models ever will be.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy

So wait...you'll buy overpriced swill from Korea but not underpriced (and about as good) swill from China?

And Kadee's cars are no better than Red Caboose, Branchline, Intermountain, new Atlas, and resin.

Well I disagree with you on everything here; the Korea brass locomotives are light years ahead of that plastic junk you call models. No they are not over priced, if you would sit down and look at a brass locomotive and compare the same model made in plastic, the brass one wins hands down!!!! Remember real locomotives are made of a metal and so are my models, BRASS.

As far as cars go Kadee is better, than the ones you have listed, for one they have sprung trucks, and now come with scale couplers. Atlas is junk, they need new couplers and trucks before you put them on the track. Intermountain cars are nice but the paint on some are think and the grabirons and other details are to thick, and they are in limited runs. Red Caboose are nice, I will agee with you on that, however they are not stocked in my local hobby shops so I always have to wait for them. Branchlines are nice too, but I don't have time to build them, however, they are nice once finished. The biggest plus on a Kadee car is this, they are made in the USA.

[RMax1]

That 's some good points. I see tons of certain Proto 2000 units in some places here. Many have been around a while. What I was looking for was UP E8's not the 949/951 E9's. I've been to shows, looked on Ebay and no luck. I did purchase a pair of Amtrak E's. Just before the new release Ebay had the old ones coming out of the woodwork. The part of the country may be true. I know where a Milwaukee Road yellow E is sitting right now. It has been in the same spot for years and not moved. I've thought about getting it and patching it up for Amtrak. It looks like the UP and would need minor work to get it to Amtrak. I could do the same with the new RI. I'd rather have the UP because I could run UP or Amtrak and have 2 time period flexibility. I've made a few phone calls and zip, nothing. Maybe what is needed here is a search board where people put what they are looking for and others help them if they know where it is or have it.

RMax

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dknelson

I see P2K stuff cheap at train shows BUT the thing is, it is the road names that are not popular locally. Here in Wisconsin you would mortgage your house to get Milwaukee Road or Chicago & North Western. But Southern Pacific? New York Central? cheap. Same is true for books.

This is a good point--here in northern California, Western Pacific, SP and (to a lesser extent) AT&SF (or BNSF) goes quickly--but whenever I take a trip to Chicago, I find quite a bit of stock decorated for West Coast lines in the "discount" pile because people want BN or CNW or other local lines. I even found Sacramento Northern (the line I model) decals for a pittance because, well, who in Chicago models Sacramento Northern?

So when you make trips to other parts of the country, always check their hobby shops! It's definitely a fishing expedition--but it just might pay off!

[CP5415]

Ya, you could say that!
I emailed them last fall inquiring about producing a D&H PA.
They said at the time that they had no plans to produce that model at that time.
Two months later, I find out through a friend that Proto is producing a D&H PA.

Gordon

[AntonioFP45]

RMax1

It's too bad that limited run is the standard now. It assures profits for the manufacturer and puts a little pressure on potential customers. (Budget / penny pinching time!)

What specific road were you looking for? You didn't say.

BTW:
Don't feel bad. I posted recently that I got a great deal at GATS for a P2k E7 in Southern for $39. The catch is, I want a Seaboard Coast Line E7 (several, actually) so I'm going to have to give the E7 body the old "91% alcohol body bath" and whip out the airbrush and decal sets. When my budget allows, I may get another P2k E7. Happy Hobo also sells Protos at a reasonamble discount.

It's likely that the units you want will show up on E-bay soon. If you're not particular about road names, my LHS (Happy Hobo Trains) has several E9s in stock. Telephone number is (813)-886-5072.

Cheers and hang in there!

[dknelson]

Be patient -- some limited run stuff is redone. Limited run does not always mean "never again." I see P2K stuff cheap at train shows BUT the thing is, it is the road names that are not popular locally. Here in Wisconsin you would mortgage your house to get Milwaukee Road or Chicago & North Western. But Southern Pacific? New York Central? cheap. Same is true for books. So somtimes shopping by mail or internet can find the things you want at distant hobby shops at good prices.
This limited run thing works both ways too. I remember that when Bachmann first announced the Amtrak F40PH and GE 44 tonner, they indicated these were limited runs that would never be seen again. So I rushed to buy and of course, paid a premium price for stuff that they proceeded to flood the market with. So if they are going to say limited run you'd like to think it is not some joke.
Dave Nelson

[BRAKIE]

Well,There are many Internet shops as well as E bay.Limited run or no you can usually find what you want by looking for it...These can be found at reasonable prices.Another option is local train shows..Just don't give up or pay full price yet...Keep looking.

[Anonymous]

RMax,

As one with a little experience in these matters I will add only two pieces of advice:

1. Just because L-L is sold out a product doesn't mean there aren't any available.
2. when Life-Like first starting making PRoto 2000 engines they were obviously overproduced since I remember seeing the E units selling for $25 at shows (and not moving) a year or so after release. They obviously learned their lesson and don't overproduce things now.

I would suggest calling around to a variety of mail order dealers and hobby shops -- I bet the engines you're looking for are out there.

Marty

[the-big-blow]

Overpriced? Check the new price of the old Athearn kits made RTR at the hobby store. One person pointed out to me that these kits cost $.50 at one time. And Now $21.99. Give me a break. Everything is over-inflated from the food on your table to the clothes on you back, to the car you drive. Every brass locomotive I've bought I'm more than happy with. That's me. To each his own. Can't get any locomotives I like in plastic(OK maybe a handful)., so have to buy brass.

[orsonroy]

So wait...you'll buy overpriced swill from Korea but not underpriced (and about as good) swill from China?

And Kadee's cars are no better than Red Caboose, Branchline, Intermountain, new Atlas, and resin.

[the-big-blow]

This is why I buy brass. I reserve a model many months in advance. Make monthly payments at my local hobby store, and have the item paid off by the time it arrives. I have no desire to waste money on manufacturers swill locomotives from China. On cars I really have to make compromises but if Kadee had made more diverse offerings I'd buy all from them. Long live Brass Locomotives!!!

[Don Gibson]

When the Discount Houses are sold out, you'll pay more - (if you can find it.).

When the next 'Run' occurs you'll pay more anyhow. 'Greedy' manufacturer? No, Declining dollar.

[Anonymous]

I understand your pain. [:(]

If you are looking for a specific loco, such as Frisco, which was my case the limited runs can make it hard to come by one. The LHS told me the runs for a specific named loco come about every 5 years. My first Proto 2000 E8/9 I actually got from the LHS but it was second hand. The run was sold out and someone had one they put on consignment. So I bought it. I was told at that time it could be years before another run of Frisco came out. When they did I had 2 put back until I could get there and buy them. Now I have 3 E8/9s. [;)]

In order to get one when they come out you need to keep checking at your LHS. Being a regular there helps keep you up to date on when things will happen and helps get you what you want when it comes out. Yes you might pay full price then, but having one it better than not having one. The runs are too limited to risk not being able to get one when you really want it. [:(!] [:(!] [:(!]

[RMax1]

They may think they do quite well but they leave a lot of customers missed and wanting. I found 1 on Ebay and bought that. A 2 week time frame for availability just means they didn't make enough. Their attitude is oh.? I'm sure many never make it to the shelves due to shop owners snatching them up for themselves or friends. That's one of the benefits of owning a hobby shop. Still means there is not enough supply . You can use Walthers find it option and there are only 4 or 5 people that show to have them and that was updated last August! Searching the country side has nothing to do with modelling. What are people to do if they get in the hobby and the loco was made 2 years ago. Learn to paint? Rembrandt couldn't reproduce some of the details.

RMax

[orsonroy]

Where have you been? Limited runs are the way this hobby works nowadays, and has been that way for over ten years. That's why manufacturers announce new products about a year before they're actually released, so they can judge demand and not make too many.

Either buy them when they're released, spend extra time and money hunting them down, or learn to paint. I do all three; it's part of being a model railroader.

And I'd actually suggest watching Ebay for these engines. Retailers have a way of ordering batches of new releases (especially engines) and then dumping them on Ebay for much less than MSRP.