Glad you mentioned the No-Ox product. I've been using De-Oxit from Caig Laboratories, which is somewhat expensive, although you don't use much of it. I suspect one small bottle will last forever. I find I don't have to clean the track as often, 1 to 2 years, but it does create more wheel slippage, and on grades I have to run fewer cars or use helpers (silver lining!). I actually did a experiment with my G scale Christmas tree layout, and found that adding the oil film after cleaning, enabled the trains - plastic wheels and all - to run many more laps than without it. I believe the oil helps to prevent the oxidation from arcing, since it blocks out the Oxygen, which helps keep the track cleaner longer.
BTW, you should add more weight to you steam loco tender to help the wheels bust through the crud. I shoot for 8 ounces or more in the tender!
Randy;
My layout is about 1,400sf and their is a lot of track on it. The layout is DC only and I clean track about once a year. However I don't believe that it makes any difference weather the layout is DC or DCC. The real issue is knowing how to properly wire the layout to minimize electrical problems and I feel that keeping the room climatically controlled is truly the key, as well as keeping it relatively sealed up. The last two are far more difficult for most model railroaders to contend with. When a locomotive or car has to come off the layout for any reason, before it goes back on, it gets the wheels cleaned. The same goes for any track work that comes up, the track in the immediate area and perhaps a couple of feet on ether side will also get a wipe down. Some times I get a little dirt, sometimes more. Moisture and dirt, even though it can't be seen cause more problems than you can imagine.
Bruce
Crandell:
I agree, after all of the layouts I have build it finally dawned on me that me more power would work as Tim Taylor used to say. By more power I mean more track hook-ups. So I spent several day on my latest pike drilling holes next to track about every three or four feet and soldering feeder wires from the main trunk line to every piece of track, made sure joints were soldered. I did clean the track a little with automatic transmission fluid, even put some on the wheels of motive power and now "it don't stop for nothin' ", unless I crank down the throttle.
It is the the electrical hook-ups and that continuous power to the tracks I think makes the difference along with good running engines and stock. I must say even my Bachmans run really well. The Spectrums, Atlas, Stewarts, Athearns, (even the older ones), run so much better. Sometimes the brass would jerk and stall but now even they run really good and look good as well.
Robert Sylvester
WTRR
FWIW, my experience in 30 years modelling is that the problem varies between the scales, the smaller the scale the more sensitive are electrical issues or dirt problems.
I am an N-scaler since 1980 and have seen that there is also a dependence on what type and makes of tracks one uses. My first layout had sectional Arnold tracks and switches, they had no dirt problems whatsoever but problems with oxidation in humid environments, they also needed soldering of feeders every 2 feet or so. The second layout used no name code 83 flextrak, nickel silver made that required still many feeders and good soldering but were fairly dust resistant. My current layout uses the Kato Unitrak system, thus no soldering at all and feeders used sparingly, only every 10 feet or so on average. While offering excellent electrical conductivity and no problems with dust or abrasion the Unitrak system has its own little problems, when putting sections together they sometimes don't fit snug and even, so I use a little file to make it smooth. Obviously, I do scratch the surface a little and this is where dust can settle. So I clean those spots about once a month with dry paper towels and this has been sufficient. The current layout was constructed 2007 in a basement room that is cold and wet in winter so that it needs heating and dehumidifying as well. Some friends pop by and run their own engines on my layout, and thus far there haven't been any problems.
That said, there are differences between the locomotives used. Generally spoken, Atlas and Intermountain locos (the majority of my fleet) are very reliable, the don't seem to pick up a lot of dirt on their wheels and operate really smoothly, whereas particularly newer Walthers locos and old Rivarossi steamers seem to be a little more sensitive. Finally, I have to say that I have banned Bachmann locos from my tracks because they always spread some grease that infact made it necessary to clean the tracks after every session.
I only use cars from Microtrains or have converted the other makes to Microtrains trucks and axles, so all wheels are plastic and they don't have problems either.
RE: the electrical connection vs cleaning problem: In my many years of working with low voltage transistors, computer ICs, micro circuits, etc, I've found that connections are MUCH more critical in low voltage (less than 12v) than high. A solder connection can be poor due to improper cleanliness prior to soldering, too low a soldering iron heat, or moving wires as the solder cools. Sometimes, poking a wire later can TEMPORARILY improve current flow, but the problem remains. Cleanliness (bare metals or lightly solder-covered) PRIOR is imperative. I suggest using rosin soldering paste or liquid for best results, NOT just the flux within solder strand, and cleaning thoroughly afterward. Acid flux is a definite NO, NON, NICHT, NYET! Clamped part and wire, a 40W iron applied, 60 tin/40 lead solder applied, flows in, and both removed promptly works best. If the solder appears silver bright and smooth, and the barest amount only, it's good. With solder, LESS is MORE. Any slight matte, dull, grey finish means it isn't (solder crystalized)! Use a magnifying glass to inspect. A hotter iron would work better, but you risk damaging any attached plastic parts (cross-ties, etc).
I have operated a number of layouts and have had my own in an unheated dusty garage and in all I think that the primary culprit is humidity and a second possible cause might be our assumption that all nickel silver track is made from the exact same alloy. There could be different versions of 'nickel silver' and some may have more resistive oxidation than others due to a different mix of metals used in manufacture. Consider the following:
1) club layout, 37 years old in a basement with a boiler and it was not unusual to have traces of water on the floor. Humidifiers had to be run all summer. This track had to be cleaned weekly to be usable despite being all nickel silver. I took it upon myself to clean EVERY wheel on every car, there was very little dirt collected after cleaning 500 cars! Members cleaned locos before each use and we still had to clean the rails every week. There was no patina of dust in the place, only alcohol was used to clean the tracks.
2)My little layout in an unheated garage built 2 years ago. This layout ran for two years and was cleaned with alcohol twice. the real problem with this layout was the plastic frogs on the switches and short wheelbase engines like a 44 tonner. plenty of dust, maybe not so much humidity since it was not a dank basement, but certainly you can't consider it arid either! I had only used alcohol to clean track when I did it.
3) Layout in a basement that has no external walls that touch dirt, built within the last 10 years. The tracks are never cleaned and it works perfectly. It was very dry in this basement and the club members kept it well dusted and washed the floors regularly.
4) Club layout in an office basement that does have a sump pump pit under the layout, this layout was built over the last 8 years. The sump rarely runs and no dehumidifier is needed. The basement is cold enough to require heating in winter but overall there is very little air flow from outside. Goo Gone is used on two track cleaning cars once per month before an operating session and there are generally few issues with 'dirty track'. (But I would not say NONE)
5)Private club sized layout that has operations at least monthly if not twice monthly. To give you an idea of how much traffic this layout sees, a substantial portion of the rolling stock has had to have trucks replaced because the truck frames wore out. no track cleaning is done as an all out cleaning. If a problem area appears, it is treated with Wahl clipper oil and that is it for the problem. There does not appear to be any issues with humidity in this basement and airflow is good. This layout was built about 10 years ago.
6)Private club sized layout #2 that operates 30 trains per night at least once if not twice per month. No track cleaning is done ever, with the exception of a bright boy if needed on spots or after painting. This layout is about 8 years old for the most part.
There are others, but these are the layouts that I am aware of the cleaning schedule/regimen if any. From the above, it seems humidity and the time period in which the rail was made is the only unique feature of the trouble bound layout #1 discussed above.
rrinker:
I have mentioned this before, I rarely clean track and my layout is in a garage and it is fairly large for me, since it fills up a two car garage with just and area on the side for access to operate.
Many may not use it or believe it, but I have said this before, there are two substances I use and the trains run really well, plus I do have electrical hook ups every three feet to insure good electrical power.
Automatic Trans Fluid and LaBelle 101, (which I understand LaBelle is going to stop porduction). I few drops around the pike and the trains move. Even with dirty track and dirty wheels. After a pass or two the trains roll without any problems.
Two cents worth.
Rob Sylvester
That's organized compared to my shop area.
My problem is I can;t work on just one thing, especially where there's like 2 minutes of paintign then a lot of waiting, so while the paint dries from project 1, I rinse out the brush and work on project 2. Project 2 also involves paiting, so once I finish the painting part of project 2, I rinse out the brush and move on to project 3. And there are tweo other projects I've put off also occupying space - building and detailing some RS-3's and getting the black handrails on my Stewart AS-16's painted body color like they should be.
I have a month left to get resistor wheels on 2 dozen more cars (which I am also painting as part of the process, even blackened wheels are too shiny for me) - I shoulda picked up more than one of those wheel painting jigs so I could do more than 4 axles at a time. They are perfect not only for paiting without getting paint ont he tread but for holding the wheel to installt he resistor and paint the conductive paint lines. In addition, I have to get the handrails painted on a second GP7 (finished that tonight - still can;t figure out why Proto painted the step ends and footboards yellow but didn;t do the verticla handrails - the handrails came FIRST so it's not an era issue). That one also needs the MU stands installed, and a decoder installed, with LEDs. Both GP7's need roof drip rails - distinctive Reading feature, you can easily tell which COnrail, NS, and CSX locos were handed down from Reading. I got 2 sets painted tonight, and installed one, so that's coming along. Bigger problem is that work has been extremely busy so weekends are the only time I get to work on this stuff. And now I'm on to teh cars that have their own metal wheels instead of usign the P2K ones - Kato cars, and Branchline cars. That single jig is now a holdup. I've considered taking a piece of sectional track and grinding divots in it, like that wheel slip picture, to use as a fixture to hold wheels while gluing on the resistors. Still can't paint any faster but I could get a jump on the resistors.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks, Rich, but if you could see my shop right now, you'd appreciate the aptness of the word. Let's just say that the scene below is still around, but is currently extremely-well camouflaged.
Wayne
doctorwayne I'm another of the slobs who don't clean track (except after doing ballasting or adding lineside scenery). I have soldered all of the rail joiners together, but have only a pair of wires feeding the power (DC) to the layout, which currently is comprised of about 200' of mainline. This doesn't include passing sidings, double track, staging, or industrial spurs. Most of my rolling stock still has its original plastic wheels, too. The layout has been in operation for more than 15 years. Wayne
I'm another of the slobs who don't clean track (except after doing ballasting or adding lineside scenery). I have soldered all of the rail joiners together, but have only a pair of wires feeding the power (DC) to the layout, which currently is comprised of about 200' of mainline. This doesn't include passing sidings, double track, staging, or industrial spurs. Most of my rolling stock still has its original plastic wheels, too. The layout has been in operation for more than 15 years.
LOLSomehow, the word "slob" and doctorwayne don't seem quite right in the same breath.
Rich
Alton Junction
A combination of varous cleaning agents and methods, plus lack of electrical contact, are my theories behind problems as well. I can;t imagine using any fluid that ould leave a residue, all that can possibly do is attract dirt. And cleanign with anythign abrasive - that just makes scratches to hodl more dirt, which needs more cleaning, which leads to more scratches... never ending cycle.
I don;t solder all my joints, just on the curves. But all joiners are powered. This too has been dismissed as trouble waiting to happen - well, the part where I haven;t gone back and connected all the feeders yet is exactly the part of the layout I have painted the track and added ballast. And I work the brush in the joiners so I con't have shiny spots, And I do paint the back side even though you can't really see it - a camera at track level would see it.
I do work fairly carefully when laying track, and I don't use the same rail joiners that have been connected and diconnected many times over. I'm not saying people should shortcut construction, but with a little care and patience while building, less than complete overkill can result in a reliably operating layout.
I have Peco code 75 tracks and I had problems before I gleamed the rails. And my method of finding problems is a 2 axle German Köf made by Trix! Try running it at a crawl and it WILL find dirt spots!
After gleaming it never finds dirt anymore! I only wipe the tracks for my own well being.... Not that it leaves any marks on the rag anymore.......
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Randy, I have the same experience as you. I can come back to my exposed layout, although it is in a carpeted basement, and get my trains to run with no problems even if not a single item has moved on the layout in weeks.
I have to be honest, though, and admit that I do get dead spots on my layout because I didn't solder all/most of my joiners. When I return to the layout after a few weeks, crank it all up, and get a stall, I don't reach for a rag with alcohol or lacquer thinner, or a Bright Boy... I touch a wooden skewer to the joiners and the locos always get power. So, I cheated electrically, and that is my problem. In fact, we had guests for dinner last night, so I went to the trains early to make sure they would run. I lit up the steamers and moved them around. Sure enough, in my two typical trouble spots, one with a solder that needs to be re-done, the train stopped. Pressure on the joints got them to go again.
I think it is electrical feed and between-rail continuity, and not the surfaces of the rails that is involved in many member's problems.
Crandell
For years I read about people with dirty track problems, both in the hobby press and later on the internet. Meanwhile, my trains just kept rolling along on rails which never had a cleaning more serious than a swipe with a dry paper towel. When things stuttered (usually after many unit-hours of running) I cleaned the wheels.
Note that I don't have a modern, all wheel pickup, roster. Some of my MU cars pick up from one side of a short-wheelbase four wheel truck at each end. Quite a few of my steam locos aren't much better, while the only difference between my MU cars, my catenary motors and my diesel-hydraulics is that the locos have longer-wheelbase trucks mounted closer together.
I can't help wondering if, in the quest for perfectly clean rails, a lot of the liquid and semi-liquid products people use actually exascerbate the problem. My layouts haven't always occupied ideal space (the present one is in a non-climate-controlled garage) but they have always been reliable in operation. Knowing me, I rather doubt that it's because some Diety likes me...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I think humidity has a lot to do with oxidation and crud buildup on track and wheels. Up to last year on our display layout at Boothbay Railway Village, we had to spend at least 1/2 hour a day cleaning track and locomotive wheels on days the exhibit was open. Trains run 6 to 8 hours a day with doors and windows open (no A/C) and visitors coming and going all the time. We were using Centerline track cleaners, one with rubbing alcohol for solvent and one dry to pick up.
Last summer, we tested No-OX on one section, and ran for days without having to clean; so we applied it to the whole layout with very good results. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/171-226
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
I have gleamed my track, so it doesn't get really cruddy.
Never the less, when I haven't run locos in a while, I dip a rag in denatured alcohol and give everything a quick wipe-down. Takes about 10 minutes for about 100 linear feet of track.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
As a retired chemist, I've always associated the term Nickel Silver as an alloy of Copper, Nickel, and usually zinc. This particular alloy does resist oxidation, but when oxidation is present it will present itself as a darkish or black deposit.
However, I don't know the exact composition of Nickel Silver rail used in our hobby and am wondering if anyone here might know the answer to that question??
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
Part of the answer probably lies in the loco's you have and how you run them.
If you have modern decent quality loco's they probably have all wheel pick-up. This pretty much ensures that power will get to the loco even if there are dirty spots. A decent weight will make this even better and less likely to get arcing.
If you run at maximum speed you are likely going to get arcing which will build up carbon on the track and wheels and require more cleaning. Running at low to medium speeds with loco's that have all wheel pickup will not arc much if at all because of the improved track contact.
Note: the black stuff on the rail is not necessarily from arcing. The oxidation from nickle silver is also black.
Springfield PA
Randy, I used to clean my track religiously, now it's about twice a year. I do pull a track cleaning car, one of those box cars with the hard pumice-like pad hanging beneath it. When I hand clean the track I try to do a very good job but there is one section that is in a short tunnel that hasn't been hand cleaned in a year and a half. So far I haven't had any issues. I have about 85 feet of mainline with drop feeders every 6 feet or so. A few, very few... of my cars still have plastic wheels... maybe 3 of them. The layout is in a fairly well sealed (from dust) room.
Someone on this board once said that he only cleaned track when the lights started to flicker..
Maybe it's all a factor of how dusty, how many feeders, how many cars with plastic wheels and how good the locos run kinda thing.
Jarrell
TA462 I clean my track a couple times a year. The biggest cause of dirty track is caused by the arcing you get when running your loco's, not from dust. Now if you were in a garage or an unfinished basemant then it would be the other way around.
I clean my track a couple times a year. The biggest cause of dirty track is caused by the arcing you get when running your loco's, not from dust. Now if you were in a garage or an unfinished basemant then it would be the other way around.
Not necessarily. My layout is in an unfinished basement, and I never have to clean my track. As far as arcing goes, I have never experienced that problem, at least not to the extent that I am required to clean my track.
I bought a CMX track cleaning car last year, but I have yet to take it out of the box.
I never clean my track, and everything runs smoothly.
I use nothing but Intermountain metal wheels on all of my rollng stock.
The only time that I have to clean my track is when I work on my layout, replacing or rerouting track and then ballasting. Once the matte medium/water glue mix dries, I have to use a Bright Boy to clean that section of track to remove the dried glue.
Based on my experience, and apparently yours as well, i believe that the concept of regular track cleaning is much overblown.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I have locos that always run smoothly around the layout. Then I have other locos that stumble and stall until I clean the track perfectly. I have to say, my Atlas locos seem to run the best, and have the least problems.
I've mentioned this in various posts about track cleaning fluids, special cars, etc. Well, let me explain the situation tonight, and maybe someone can help me figure out why my layotu it like this.
I haven't run trains in over a month. In fact it may be close to 2 months. I've been extremely busy at work,a dn what little railroad time I've been getting in, I've been putting reistor wheelsets in my cars and preparing for the club show at the end of June. However, tonight I finished some more cars and decided to give them a test run. I pulled out a Stewart DS4-4-1000 loco that's been sitting in my carrying box since the beginnign of February when I got back from the winter Timonium show. I coupled this to the head of my train, 8 loaded hoppers, a tank car, and caboose. I turned on my DCC system and turned on track power. I started the loco and let it run at a crawl - all the way around without the slightest flicker of the headlight. No cleaning the track, it just ran, smooth as always.
Granted the layout is in a liveable space (spare bedroom). But it has essentially been gathering dust for almost 2 months. I've had a window open most of the time as well so it didn;t get too hot. I've been painting, but have not vacuumed the floor or the layout. The only track cleaning I've ever done is to clean off any oops made when painting the rails, and only about 12 feet of the main line has been painted. The rest is just how it was when I put it down.
I can't explain why I never have to clean my track. My trains just run, not flickers, stall, stutters or sound dropouts. I've never done the 'gleaming' procedure. My track is plain old off the shelf Atlas Code 83 flex and turnouts. Every rail joiner has a pwoer feed, except at power district boundaries, but I don;t even have half the feeders on the far side hooked up yet.
Perhaps the real answer is that all these people who think they need to clean their track all the time aren't really having a dirty track problem - it could be something else, and NOT the dirt on the track. Poor power feeds perhaps. Maybe dirty loco wheels, not the track - although my Stewart switcher got several hours of run time at the last show and I never cleaned the wheels - nor did I clean the wheels on any of my other locos. Or clean the wheels on the rolling stock - I do use all metal wheels though. No plastic wheels roll on my layout, ever.
Go figure.