Homeland Security and railfans

[philnrunt]

Here at the small police dept that I work at, we have received a video and information on what to look for in the way of possible terrorist threats. I thought I would pass on some of the points that may affect railfans.
If you show "unusual or prolonged interest in security measures, entry points..." etc, you will draw attention.
"Discrete use of still cameras, video recorders, or note taking at non-tourist type locations, e.g., government facilities, airports, bridges, chemical plants"
Not hard to add rail facilities, port facilities etc to this list.
"Unusual items are observed within the vehicle, such as blueprints, sketching materials, surveilance equipment,e.g.,binoculars, video cameras, cameras with extensive adaptable lenses...."
There are some other suggestions reference things that railfans might be doing in the course of their hobby, my advice would be to carry identification, co-oporate with he cops, and remember they are local peace officers doing a job that soldiers with machine guns do in other countries.
I assuming these pamphlets were sent to all police depts for public disemination, if you stop by in a few days and ask for one they should be handouts, and they give an idea of what Sept 11 has wrought.

[Anonymous]

Hi Phil [:)]

Yes the times have changed and NOT for the better. COWARDS from halfway around the world have touched our lives and not in a pleasant way. I don't envy you or other police officers now, I am sure the job was hard enough before 9-11. BUT now there are other concerns to worry about and we all must keep an eye out for anything out of the ordinary.

Personally I am doing less railfanning and when I do, staying in one spot less time than normal. I have never had any problems yet but really don't expect to either, no problems from other railfans and no problems from the railroad or local police. I have chased trains in my city late at night and been in some areas where I would not get out of my truck but I was trying to get engine numbers and not take pics.

Thanks for posting this and giving us some heads up about it. If we are doing nothing wrong then we should have no problem cooperating with the police. I plan to cooperate.

Take care and stay safe. [:)]

[Junctionfan]

For example, if I was to take my camera but made no bones about having one. I was to take pictures of NS and CSX trains in either Dunkirk NY or Erie Pennsylvania. I would also have some binoculars-opera glasses to check the signals for trains. Is there know way to make myself not freak out the law? In a few years it won't be so bad. I plan to go back to collage to become a customs officer. I don't think the department of homeland security will dispute a customs officer with a RCMP/FBI background check as well as someone with a Nexus I.D

[Anonymous]

I usualy stick to a park near me so most of the NS employees and people in the nearby town get used to seeing me, CSX, BNSF, KCS, and UP all tell their employees to report anyone taking photos and notes but the rule is rarely enforced, NJT, SEPTA, MBTA, and other commuter RR's don't allow you to take a picture of ANYTHING (even from public property!!!!) on NJT property, I'm not worried about the railroads as much as I am the public, remember that 99% of the population doeswn't even know the hobby exists! What would you think if you were Joe driving down the road and you saw someone taking pictures of a train, I'm sure someone (not a RR empolyee, if that were the case I would have heard it on the scanner) has called me in at one time or another.

[AntonioFP45]

Regarding NJT. I read about them not wanting ANYONE to photo their trains from public property. Is this a law or is it enforced? I'm sure law enforcement could "question" a photographer.

[Junctionfan]

Thank you for the tip. I was thinking of going railfaning along the Cleveland Sub between Buffalo and Erie, Pa because I can't afford to go to Fostoria this year so I was wondering where to go that won't make people quite so jittery.

[Anonymous]

I'd hate to say it but railfans are now getting a taste of what plane spotters have been putting up with all these years.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45


Regarding NJT. I read about them not wanting ANYONE to photo their trains from public property. Is this a law or is it enforced? I'm sure law enforcement could "question" a photographer.

I've heard of railfans getting fined(they were on public property) but most of the time they question and go, I don't think anyone has gotten arrested (yet).

[Anonymous]

Railfans are being treated like $hit nowadays,does that mean the terrorist have won,we all scared just so they can win? In other words,were not to railfan any more.The terrorist's have won. The problem is,if this stupid country would stop worring about it every single day we would be much more prepared for what ever happens next.
The terrorists have won......unless this this stupid country grows up.
Im sick and tired of the news media's rub it down your throat campane crap.
people are over reacting to much damn much.
BNSFrailfan.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF SD70MAC
The terrorist's have won.
.

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto]

The most pathedic thing is we can take pictures of trains in China but not here!!!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF SD70MAC
The terrorist's have won.
.

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto]

The most pathedic thing is we can take pictures of trains in China but not here!!!

Well not exactly. I'd rather be questioned and fined in the US, where I could take it to court and challenge it vice in the PRC where I'd probably be tried as a foriegn spy.

[dharmon]

One of the nice things about this country is that you have access to your elected officials. Complain to them, it's your right. The best defense against laws you don't like is to vote.

[AntonioFP45]

BNSF, Stupid country? We are this country.

You make strong points and it is frustrating, but all we have to do is think about what happened in Spain and then look how easily accessible our trains are. Years back I climbed aboard a Florida Midland CF7 locomotive at a siding to check it out. Yes, I was trespassing. No one said a word to me! Today, if I were a railroad worker in the northeast or in a large U.S city, I think I would be have that trajedy constantly in the back of my mind.

These officials, being human, are nervous also so hence the knee-jerk reactions. To show the public they're being aggressive. Being fined for taking pictures of trains from a public area sounds like "civil lawsuit fodder". That is too extreme.

BTW: Terrorists do have to think twice in China!. You can be thrown in a jail cell, beaten senseless by cold, stoic soldiers or cops and then released with no apologies. Lawsuit?! What's that?

Keep railfanning guys! If you're questioned, keep a cool head!

[darth9x9]

The fact of the matter is railroads are VERY vulnerable to attack. I am not going to discuss anything specific on this forum but I have received extensible classes and training in my job as an Army Reservist in which I am a liaison to FEMA. I have been told it will happen; it’s just a matter of where and when. Don’t be fooled into complacency.

[dharmon]

As model railroaders, you should be ready for anything. Just the other day, my railroad workshops had to face a large HAZMAT spill. In 1/87, 2 or so ounces of paint spilled on the bench is a catastrophy.....I had to get all of my crews out and a response team from Brawny right on it. Just think of what could have happened if terrorists got to.....say one of the gallon cans of house paint and blown it up. The work bench and "locomotive works" could be ruined.....Around my house..the HO scale railroad police are always on the lookout for suspicious activity. [:)]

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

As model railroaders, you should be ready for anything. Just the other day, my railroad workshops had to face a large HAZMAT spill. In 1/87, 2 or so ounces of paint spilled on the bench is a catastrophy.....I had to get all of my crews out and a response team from Brawny right on it. Just think of what could have happened if terrorists got to.....say one of the gallon cans of house paint and blown it up. The work bench and "locomotive works" could be ruined.....Around my house..the HO scale railroad police are always on the lookout for suspicious activity. [:)]

The only terrorist I have to watch on my future layout I will have to beware of is mice but I plan to employ a railroad police of 4......3 black tabbies and a burmese

[Anonymous]

Junctionfan--Be careful of cats on the layout. There have been a lot of threads about that subject in the past.

[Junctionfan]

I don't actually plan on letting them into the room with the trains but plan to set of a parimeter around the room so my cats can do guard duty. I own a number of automax cars among other things so I wouldn't dare allow cats in the actual area.[:O]

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't eather!
BNSFrailfan.

[AntonioFP45]

On a serious note, Darth9x9 makes a strong case for vigilence. Complacency is exactly what these terrorist/cowards want from us. Whether Bush or Kery wins is irrelevant. Becoming France's "political ally" won't help. We are classified as "infidels" by the cowards. Their goal: extermination. Why don't the hollywood celebs get this??[V][B)]

I hope and pray that it doesn't take another "whopper of an attack" to wake this nation up. Norm MIneta sure isn't doing much to help secure our nation's rail network [V] - though he is pushing to go out on a limb for the airline industry.

As railfans we can help our country as well as the railroads by acting as extra "eyes and ears" when we're out chasing trains and by cooperating when questioned by officials. It's even good to let them know that you're also on the alert. Whether we agree or not, our freedoms and country's safety changed forever on 9/11/01.

[Anonymous]

Amen to that!
BNSFrailfan.

[brothaslide]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Why don't the hollywood celebs get this??[V][B)]

I hope and pray that it doesn't take another "whopper of an attack" to wake this nation up.

Antonio - Unfortunetly, I think it may take another whopper more close to home for the hollywood celebs to make them change their minds. I pray and hope this never happens.

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brothaslide

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Why don't the hollywood celebs get this??[V][B)]

I hope and pray that it doesn't take another "whopper of an attack" to wake this nation up.

Antonio - Unfortunetly, I think it may take another whopper more close to home for the hollywood celebs to make them change their minds.

It’s a bit off subject of MRR’ing, but I’m afraid it will take far more than that. I don’t think it’s about politics; it’s about using the situation to maximize their media exposure. Whether it’s manning a phone to help with a telethon for the 9/11 victims, or speaking out against the war in Iraq, they seem to take the side that will get them the most exposure. That’s the name of the game in Hollywood.

As far as rail fanning goes, it's something I don't do so I really am not in a position to directly experience the impact of the restrictions. But like MRR’ing, it’s a hobby. So if some aspect of my hobby somehow interferes with the security of our country, well hey, I have to keep perspective and respect the efforts of those who are trying to protect us.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,I been out railfanning several times this year..Never question by any LEO even through I had several to drive past and didn't even look my way.
Now,from the panic talk I have read on different forums I was expecting SWAT,the FBI,CIA and other LEOs to come out with guns blazing and bullets flying in my direction..Naw its not that bad yet.I suspect you will have a better Chance of being mugged or car jacked while railfanning then hassles from LEOs,

[Anonymous]

Brakie what you said is so damn funny but so damn true too!
BNSFrailfan.

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Guys,I been out railfanning several times this year..Never question by any LEO even through I had several to drive past and didn't even look my way.
Now,from the panic talk I have read on different forums I was expecting SWAT,the FBI,CIA and other LEOs to come out with guns blazing and bullets flying in my direction..Naw its not that bad yet.I suspect you will have a better Chance of being mugged or car jacked while railfanning then hassles from LEOs,

I like to railfan at the local train yard after work. It is on my way home, what a route. The road I park off of is one the the California Highway Patrol (CHP) uses to get between on of their stations and a freeway. I have had several CHPs, county sheriff deputies and city police officers pass by me, sometimes while I was photographing a train, without any stopping.

I also report anything that does not look right to the railroad or police.

LEO, gives a whole new meaning to Uncle Leo (from Seinfeld).

JERRY! HELLO!

[Anonymous]

Its a shame to. The one area of the country they could really cuase problems they totally ignore becasue No one lives there supposedly. Yet the entire nation draws three quarters of their energy needs from this place. And the fact that two major Transcon Routs go through this part of the country to. Disruptions here could really mess things up. That Place. Wyoming. But no one ever really pays attention to us out here. I hope it stays that way.

Long Live *** Cheney.

James

[philnrunt]

dharmon- so did you notify HO-SHA about that spill? They might have 40 or 50 pages of questions for you to fill out!
And guys, take my word for it, the local LEO's (I like that) have tons of other things on their minds, if one speaks with you it is probably because someone complained about it. Be up front and you should have absolutely no problem. Most LEO's are pretty reasonable guys, if they ask you to move on it's usually to please nervous citizens.
As for the idea of making a law against taking pics from public property, it would be a waste of time and totally un-enforceable, so you can almost bet the polliticians will be working on something along those lines real soon, as most of the laws passed in knee jerk reaction are.
As for governmental double talk- Further reading of this pamphlet disclosed the following paragraph- "This project was supported by Cooperative Agreement Number 1999-MU-CX-K006 adminstered by the Office for State and Local Government Coordination and Preparedness, U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Points of view or opinions in this material are those of the author and do not represent the official position or policies of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security."
Your tax dollars at work!

[ericsp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by philnrunt


As for governmental double talk- Further reading of this pamphlet disclosed the following paragraph- "This project was supported by Cooperative Agreement Number 1999-MU-CX-K006 adminstered by the Office for State and Local Government Coordination and Preparedness, U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Points of view or opinions in this material are those of the author and do not represent the official position or policies of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security."
Your tax dollars at work!

Does the 1999 mean the project started in 1999? If so, then I guess the DHS came on board later.

[philnrunt]

ericsp- that would be the logical, common sense conclusion that a reasonable person would draw, but with it being the fed government, who can say? For all I know it means it cost 1999$ to have it printed at the local Kinkos.
With the attack happening in '01, I would guess it's an inventory control or sequence number. But as I said, I really don't know.