Impolite question: Cost of those big MR mag quality model railroads

[Anonymous]

This is the type of question my Mom taught me not to ask. But I will anyway. How much do people spend on those huge layouts - you know, the basement filling around the walls double deckers?

I doubt I'll get an answer for this one, but I'd also love to know how much typical model magazines pay for articles on such beautiful layouts. Does the payment for the article put a dent in the cost of the hobby?

I would love to hear that it does put a dent in it - so that the super talented individuals/clubs could get something back for sharing their talent with everyone else.

[Jetrock]

That cost can be really variable. I think in some book a rule of thumb for a fairly detailed HO layout was something like $100 per foot, but a lot depends on materials used and how much work is put into it--in most cases the "sweat equity" of labor put into a layout is more important than cash. You can spend a ton of money and still end up with a cruddy-looking layout if you don't put the work into it. People who do a lot of scratchbuilding, scrounging for materials and finding cost-effective ways to do things will end up paying less for their layouts--I imagine, from what I know about John Allen, that his classic room-filling layout the Gorre & Daphetid cost comparatively little because (a) Allen was very into scratchbuilding and finding low-cost solutions, and (b) he was extremely frugal, as well as (c) he had lots of friends who made things like engines and rolling stock and probably gave him materials (maybe in return for photography services, advertising, etc.)

I'm sure that writing articles helps counterbalance the cost of the hobby somewhat, but it's probably not much of a profit over what one would spend unless one was doing it full-time...which, again, requires more skill, practice and artistic ability than money.

One expense that doesn't get menitoned is the price of the space where the layout goes--having a large layout assumes that you can afford a large house to store it!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevlar9296


I doubt I'll get an answer for this one, but I'd also love to know how much typical model magazines pay for articles on such beautiful layouts. Does the payment for the article put a dent in the cost of the hobby?

I would love to hear that it does put a dent in it - so that the super talented individuals/clubs could get something back for sharing their talent with everyone else.

It isn't a secret! While I haven't submitted any articles for a while, the major magazines all paid around $80.00 per page for articles. Cover photos were worth $125.00. These amounts may have changed somewhat, but can be used as a general guide. What's nice about MR is when they accept your material, they pay you for it based upon the estimated space it would take in the magazine. When it is published if it takes more space, they will pay you the difference. Keep in mind MR buys a lot of submissions, and seeing your work in print could take quite some time.[:(]

Other mags pay only upon publication of the material. I've had the good fortune to have had material used in most major magazines, and the income from this work has offset most if not all of my hobby expenditures. [:D]

Bob Boudreau
Canada

[nslakediv]

I built a garage for my layout, then found out 20x24 was not big enough and added an addition this spring giving me another 10', new size is 20x34. $100 per sq. ft. is probably high, but its close. I also live in great lakes region so you would have to figure in heating cost, which goes up every year. dont forget electric. My ultimate goal is getting it published, but i wont be hurt if it never happens. I have op sessions on it and thats my ultimate payoff.

[BRAKIE]

A very good friend of mine has a basement size layout with all the trimmings including a CTC board..Sufface it to say he has around $17,000(his estimation) and its only 90% finished.The layout fills a 24' x 60' basement and is a round the walls with 3 peninsula's.

[CNJ831]

Indeed, if you search the literature carefully enough there are some figures available. In general a basement-filling layout of the sort that typically appears in MR would account for expenditures of $25,000 and up. There are certainly more than a few large, individually owned, layouts in this country that are in the $100,000 range without the builder's time or labor factored in.

If we talk professionally built layouts (these have started to appear in MR) then I have to go with the figures quoted on a recent PBS show I saw about such a company. Their prices started at around $20,000 for something "small but nice" and their top project so far had been $125,000 for a basement-filler.

I'll also affirm the $100 per square foot figure quoted upstream in this thread. From personal experience I can say that if you are not ready to spend at least $4k to $7k in building an MR-worthy, small to modest-sized layout (no locos or rolling stock included), then you've pick the wrong hobby.

CNJ831

[orsonroy]

Oof; I just did a quick numbers crunch: $27,000 for the junk I've got !

Of course, that's spread out over the past ten years, and includes everything, including about $2000 for all my scenery junk (ground foam to little people). And I've got what most people would call a LARGE layout: 12x25, three level, 600 or so freight cars, 30 or so passenger, 30 diesels and 100 or so steam. Not to mention all the buildings I've bought over the years, or all the scratchbuilding and airbrushing equipment I've been accumulating over the past three years. It all piles up, doesn't it?

Of course, I've been in the process of selling down my junk piles over the past three years or so. I've been making about $1000 in sales at local swaps per year, which doesn't recoup what I originally spent, but it's keeping me from blowing my now meager budget (got married, ya know)!

Actually, I don't really CARE what my layout has cost. To me, it's a net investment. I can pay all the bills in time, have a nice life, and afford to do other things. What my layout and model building gives me is much more important to me than a wad of singles in my pocket.

[rayhippard]

Another interesting question regarding our hobby costs is : " How much money we have lost when having to tear down a layout because of a move to a different house or even to correct our dissatisfaction with a layout and wanting to " start over ". Any thoughts on this ?
Ray
P.S. I do agree that we are in this hobby because we love it and when you really love something or somebody, cost is no object.

[Anonymous]

I agree witth orsonoroy that though we may seem to spend a lot on trains the cost is over many years. Mostt of the huge layouts have been wworks in progress for years. You buy a car or an engine here or there. It is a labor of love and sometimes we do lose track (no pun intended) of how much we actually spend. Another factor is how much scenery is actually on our layout. If your modelling a desert then your cost will be a lot cheaper then if your modeling the mountains in Maine.
I think we do loose some money rebuilding but for the most part I've been able to salvage most of my old layouts.
Most of my cars were actually purchased used from train shows. I know since christmas time I've probably spent 1000 and I'm not even 1/3 of the way done. My layout will probobly never get into MR but I can live with that. What I'm looking forward to is seeing the face of my 10 year old cousin from texas when he comes to see it and that will repay me for all tmoney I put into it.
Andrew

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rayhippard

Another interesting question regarding our hobby costs is : " How much money we have lost when having to tear down a layout because of a move to a different house or even to correct our dissatisfaction with a layout and wanting to " start over ". Any thoughts on this ?
Ray
P.S. I do agree that we are in this hobby because we love it and when you really love something or somebody, cost is no object.

I know that feeling all too well. I spent $250,000 building a layout that ultmately had to be torn down.[:0][V][:(] It wasn't a total loss though. The experience I gained was priceless.[:p][;)][8D]

[Anonymous]

My guess is that the cost per square foot that was quoted is pretty much on point. I figure that if you look at the cost of entertainment (going to the movies, ballgame, etc.) and compare that with what you spend per hour on the layout, the layout's entertainment value is pretty good.

By the way, Bob Boudreau--it's good to hear from you. I have enjoyed your material in the past.

[Anonymous]

You might be surprised to know that not a few of the mag types of empire layouts are easily in excess of $100k. Not all, but many. Some are even far more than that. You must include the motive power, rolling stock, buildings, and details. The bigger the layout, the larger the fleet to fill it and some of those guys will have a fleet that is 2-4 times larger than necessary to fill it (for variety's sake). 100 brass locos alone could easily set you back $60 - $100k. Granted not all have 100 brass locos in their fleet, but several do and many have 30 to 50 brass locos. Don't forget some of the very large rolling stock fleets (some brass, many Intermountain types of cars, as well as the basic cars), never mind a few (or more than a few) passenger consists. We don't even need to discuss the buildings, details, and scenery types of purchases. Nor did we say anything about the electronics, or all of the room improvements to make the layout room a showcase. Many of the guys are just like us average modelers too - we often buy locos or cars that we don't necessarily need, but we like it so we get it . They do that too (they just have more money to do that with), though much of that will not show up in the mag photos. Further, like Ray said, much of this is done over time - many years. Thus, it is not a large one or two time payout. It is many, many smaller purchases done over time that, before you know it, have accumulated into quite an investment (never mind the time invested as well.) Again, not all of the large and/or beautiful layouts are necessarily done very expensively, but quite few of them are.

A guy I know fairly well, whose layout has been published and is also featured in one of the well-known videos, told me that he has spent in excess of $500k. I was shocked (I am familiar with the layout) and at first would not believe it. But you know, I did the math on it (I'm a Controller with a cost accounting background) and even using conservative estimates I could see he was not stretching things. Again, it was done over time, but it adds up. After that little exercise, I can see how the other empires are themselves also likely quite the investment. I'll never reach their levels, but to put things in perspective, all of us here who take the hobby seriously (is that an oxymoron - hobby & serious? LOL) would probably be surprised how much we have ourselves invested in it. It's also probably no small amount, relative to our own personal financial standings, but again, it was done over time. Still, this hobby is a lot less expensive than some of my friends hobbies (can you say motorhomes, fast cars, boating, ...) Enjoy the hobby.

Greg

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FundyNorthern

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevlar9296


I doubt I'll get an answer for this one, but I'd also love to know how much typical model magazines pay for articles on such beautiful layouts. Does the payment for the article put a dent in the cost of the hobby?

I would love to hear that it does put a dent in it - so that the super talented individuals/clubs could get something back for sharing their talent with everyone else.

It isn't a secret! While I haven't submitted any articles for a while, the major magazines all paid around $80.00 per page for articles. Cover photos were worth $125.00. These amounts may have changed somewhat, but can be used as a general guide. What's nice about MR is when they accept your material, they pay you for it based upon the estimated space it would take in the magazine. When it is published if it takes more space, they will pay you the difference. Keep in mind MR buys a lot of submissions, and seeing your work in print could take quite some time.[:(]

Other mags pay only upon publication of the material. I've had the good fortune to have had material used in most major magazines, and the income from this work has offset most if not all of my hobby expenditures. [:D]

Bob Boudreau
Canada

To understand why Bob's income has offset most of his expenditures, be sure to visit his website. He does super stuff!
Hey Bob, I was puzzled whiy your location is shown as "CA" and yet your road is the Fundy Northern, until I realized CA was for Canada, not California, eh?

[tatans]

First I'm still trying to digest the intelligence of buying brass locomotives by the armload and stuffing them in boxes under the bench at a cost that most people can't even imagine. Now I am astounded by the values on model layouts, $17,000, $25,000 $27,000 $60-100,000 , $250,000, and even $500,000 and the casualness of railfans dropping these figures, either people out their are exaggerating or I'm missing something, I must question my motives for model railroading from this point on. YIKES ! what have I got myself into?

[Anonymous]

I hear you Tatans. I'm just getting back into the hobby (well, I'm hoping to soon, anyway) after about a 15 year abscence (since I was a kid). As a kid, I'd look at layouts in MR and count the turnouts - I'd count 50 turnouts on a moderate sized layout and know that was 50x10=$500 in turnouts, half of which had $12 Tortoise switch machines, etc.

Now the costs are higher of course, and as an adult, the costs surprise me even more. As a kid, I always figured, "ahhh, when I grow up, this stuff will not seem expensive..." In these times where you have to cut your arm off to own a home here in California, the idea of spending loads of cash on a hobby seems insane.

I'm determined to approach the hobby from a low-cost point of view. I plan on handlaying all of my track (read: cheap turnouts). There is no way I'll be paying big bucks for scenery materials - that stuff gets tossed whenever redo a section of the layout. I'll be figuring out how to make cheap scenery, etc.

I'll also be sticking with a very small layout. I just picked up Iain Rice's book on small layouts - he's got some great ideas. I'll be focusing my efforts on more time consuming projects, where the cost is my time (which like most, I don't have much of either of course), but I'd rather have a small detailed unique layout that takes me years to build than a huge layout covered with off-the-shelf trees that cost like $5 each! That is insane!!!!!

I'm going old-school! Do-it-myself is my motto.

[Anonymous]

It can be done on the cheap if you have the patience. In most ventures you either have time or money. Lots of money can buy you time, lots of time can save you money. Because I'm self employed and have a boat load of medical bills, When I decided to get back in, I needed to do it on the cheap. I read an article on a starter layout in MR and they proudly said that they built a 4x8 HO for $500. I thought they were nuts. But then I was out of it since the mid 70's and then only bought cheap Tyco, AHM etc. This time I'm going "N" scale. Now when I say cheap, I mean frugal not junk. I don't want a bunch of engines that run like crap. I've purchased from locals who are getting out of the hobby, Items traded at a local Lionel shop who doesn't want to get involved with "N" and selective Ebay. So far so good. I've purchased like new MRC power packs from people who I assume have gone DCC for $15 or less. I've purchased a huge lot of Kato Unitrack, with 8 switches, (2) like New Atlas GP's with Cabooses and some cars, plus a power pack and (2) Walthers structures for $125 from a guy going into "G". I'm also lucky to be next to a mill where they allow me to rob their dumpster of perfectly fine 1x3's and birch ply for free on a daily basis. The only thing I've purchased new at this point is some Pink Foam from Home Depot and some Scenic Design grades. I've figured I've got over a thousand dollars worth of items for about $225.00 Now if you include the time spent browsing Ebay, and not spent building my layout because I didn't have all I needed then time has been the expense here. But It allows me to eventually have the MRR I want at a price I can afford. Just my $0.02 Dave

[Noah Hofrichter]

Mr Boudreau, Would you mind dropping me an e-mail at the link below? I have a question for you about submitting an article to MR.

Noah

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Noah Hofrichter

Mr Boudreau, Would you mind dropping me an e-mail at the link below? I have a question for you about submitting an article to MR.

Noah

Not sure if I understand, the link is for a prototype railroad - is this where you want me to contact you?

There is an e-mail link to me on my web site:
http://www.geocities.com/fundynorthern/

Bob Boudreau
Canada



Bob

[Noah Hofrichter]

Sorry Bob, I mean the E-mail link down at the very bottom, but I'l' just give you an e-mail at your website.

Noah

[CBQ_Guy]

A basement filling layout can easily cost thousands, but the numbers thrown around here seem awfully high to me. Maybe someday when I add up all that I've actually spent...I'll think differently!

[Jetrock]

I suppose a lot depends on the specific "square foot" one is working on...my current project, a 4' square diorama for a railroad museum, required an expenditure of around $500 in total (don't quote me, I haven't gone over all my receipts yet) although this includes a lot of fairly expensive stuff like an SS Ltd. turntable and a bunch of pre-made trees, plus quite a bit of paint and other scenic decor. This would put the cost per foot at around $125, but that is four square feet of engine servicing terminal, set in the mountains, with a large number of relatively pricey things like miniatures and detail castings strewn about everywhere.

A square foot of straight track in a prairie setting, consisting largely of a stretch of track, roadbed, backdrop and a little paint & plaster, would probably cost about $50. Small layouts that have a lot of structures & scenery, due to a lack of "free running space" and wanting to make the most out of every square inch, probably cost more per square foot (given a similar level of detail, etc.) than large layouts because larger layouts can have those "slack" areas without a ton of expensive detail.

And, of course, if one is building at one's own pace and doing things from scratch, things can be a lot cheaper--my "home" layout uses fairly minimalist scenery (an urban layout with no hills or other dramatic scenery elements other than trees and street) and extensive use of relatively cheap stuff like foamcore, sheet cardboard, and structures either scratchbuilt or gleaned from "sale tables" and train shows certainly cost less per square foot than the diorama, which is expected to be of museum-quality workmanship.

[Anonymous]

I think the $100 /sq ft. is very subjective, given the old technique of "fill the basement " vs the new era of: lots of staging, wide people spaces, long thin runs. etc... Also people need to remember to model with in there own limit$..
This means wise choices: ground throws+handbuilt turnouts vs. tortoise+ highend premades, brass vs kato/atlas . etc... the list goes on and on. The hobby is what you make it! Dont let the $$$ sidetrack you. Think of this too:
If you are in for the long haul, you costs get spread over 20+ years or more.
Nobody fills a basement overnight!!

[robengland]

The old designer's rule: "You can have good, quick, and cheap. Pick any two." It doesn't have to be expensive: just take your time or compromise on quality.

Me I'm in a hurry and I don't like to compromise, so I have sunk around four or five thousand US$ in the first six months of getting into the hobby, and expect to spend that much again over the next couple of years.

Once I have made that investment, much of it is re-usable for life, so long as I stick to scale and road and era. And even if I choose to change era, say, and replace some of the rolling stock and buildings, there is still all the tools, DCC gear, electrical, computers, lighting and track that is re-usable.

So I am planning to build the current 5'x12' as a learning exercise, then scrap it in two to three years when we renovate anmd I get a train room [:)] The cost of rebuilding should not be much: new wood, metal and foam. Everything else I am planning now to re-use (soluble glue for track fixing, scenic modules, LDEs...). Of course the next layout will be bigger, so I will need to extend my investment, but the sunk costs will not be lost.

Finally, look at what some people spend on other hobbies. In my social/work circles, I have competitive mountain-bikers, a kayaker, a 4WD racer, a Samurai sword collector, several wind-surfers... It is not unusual for people to spend thousands every year on a hobby. Some people spend thousands every year on booze and smokes. I don't think I'm off the scale with my hobby - I even persuaded my wife of that[:D]

What else is money for?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock


Small layouts that have a lot of structures & scenery, due to a lack of "free running space" and wanting to make the most out of every square inch, probably cost more per square foot (given a similar level of detail, etc.) than large layouts because larger layouts can have those "slack" areas without a ton of expensive detail.

I think this point is right on target. A lot has to do with your individual style and modeling subject. Filling even a small layout with superdetailed urban scenery is going to get expensive, while you can fill the same space with desert or prairie for a lot less money (and less time, if that's an issue)

I think limiting myself to a specific year, prototype, locale, etc. has helped curb impulse purchases. I think velocity also has a lot to do with it - that is, spending $10,000 over 10 years is a lot differerent than doing everything the quick, out-of-the-box way over 1 year. You'll get a lot more enjoyment (which is what we're really buying here) by stretching it out.

One of my interests is scratchbuilding structures, which has a pretty low cost per hobby hour. It might take a month of evenings to complete a building that could be done in kit form in a night or two. And the scratchbuilt version will normally end up costing less.

I guess if n = cost of a model railroad and t = time spend enjoying myself, than t/n = (a lot less per hour than professional stress management therapy).

[Anonymous]

My standard comment when discussing the cost of the hobby is: "It's cheaper than therapy...I think..." I think there is one more factor to consider here in the California Bay Area and other parts of the country where the cost of real estate has taken off like a rocket: the value of the space the railroad occupies. In my instance the space value far exceeds the amount of money spent on trains to fill it.

For example: a 1200 sq ft house in many communities around here is worth 500K (Insane? .. you bet). Adding 400sq ft for the garage, makes 1600 into 500K figures out to $312.50 per square foot. My room is 270 sq ft and is thus worth about 89k in real estate value alone...It is a little silly, but it is some thing to consider....

There are very few basements here in CA, and so the layout is usually taking up useful square footage (the best use, some would argue). I am always checking out the sizes of train rooms elsewhere with great envy....If some one lives in the Bay area and has a huge room, he has spent a huge chunk already on just the space...Sorry for rambling off topic here..

My two cents,

Guy

[Anonymous]

Boy do I hear you on the real estate aspect, Guy. Perhaps the more appropriate term would be 'co-miserate' LOL I live in the LA basin and the market conditions are the same - like you said "insane". The lack of basements is a real killer for us hobbyists, eh? With the housing costs so expensive, my wife would never let me use any of our normal living space for the layout (nor would I blame her), so my only reasonable option is the garage. Since we still want (need) to park the cars in the garage, that makes my layout the kind that gets hoisted up the the ceiling when not in use. Surprisingly, if you design it right and are careful about your selection of materials you can still get a decent sized layout that's sturdy and strong yet is still manageable / hoistable. My layout is 6-1/2 x 11 with a two track main, a tunnel, 3% grades, plus several sidings to be switched, and includes a 5 track yard - yet it's not what you'd call a real spaghetti bowl plan, though I've had one of those before. With a pulley system, it's hoistable by one person (namely, myself) and does not really stress the joists or the layout frame though it does take about 15-20 minutes just to raise or to lower it. Again careful planning of the framing and lifting system, and judicious use of strong yet light weight materials is requisite. Necessity is indeed the mother of invention, and where there's a will there's a way (and most model railroaders are pretty strong willed. LOL)
Enjoy the hobby!

Greg