I agree they should be a little more specific on what's actually needed and what's not included for the construction. I have been scratchbuilding and kitbashing for nearly 40 years, so I have a pretty good idea of how that works. I needed a large brick structure for my layout and was going to kitbash it, but saw the modulars on sale. I downloaded the design template and worked out what I thought I'd need. The prototype of my building didn't have pilasters, so I didn't intend to use them. From the instruction sheet, I thought the pilasters were an add on overlay that went on top of the wall sections, not an integral part of the wall that was required for the wall to go together. Well it becomes reorder time, with me frustrated because I now have to spend more and wait longer, which was another few months for the pilasters to come in since they were on a slow boat from China.
In the long run, it would have been easier and cheaper to kitbash what I needed from a couple of other kits than use the modulars. Once I use up the parts I have left, there'll be no more modulars for me.
I don't have a local hobby shop so it's internet ordering. Had I been able to see a package of these in the hobby shop, it wouldn't have taken long to know what was and wasn't there. Without a hands on, I'm totally dependent on the description in the add or on line. The lack of clear information has kept me from ordering a lot of stuff I would have otherwise. In this case I still most likely whould have ordered a Walter's product, just a different one that I was familiar with. Come on manufacturers, give us the information we need to give you money.
When Walthers initially introduced the modular line, each packet listed for $9.98. Looking at the catalog listings, I realized it would take a major investment to build anything. The price kept me away. Now the list price has dropped to $5.98, with the sale price of $3.98 I recently purchased two of the casting plants for $7.98 each. I haven't had a chance to build one yet, but the system looks like a good addition to the DPM modulars. The new price point should encourage more modelers to give them a try.
the coaling tower I have is the larger concrete one and it actually has 4 tracks involved. The photo attached shows the major walls of the kit 'scotch taped' together so I could see exactly how much space I would need and how to space the tracks. Also, the fourth track, which is elevated about 1/2" for the hoppers to unload the coal, had to be exact. I cut the rails inside the building so I can remove the model from the layout when necessary. As it turns out the 1st track is a little close to the building but I can't be sure until I build the coal chutes as see how far out they go. This is where track spacing dimensions would have been very helpful and something Walthers could have easily supplied on the box or instruction sheet. Surely Walthers has assembled one of these?
- Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Capt. Grimek medina, thanks very much for the track separation/spacing specs. I hadn't opened the box yet (still under the benchwork as I finish up the last track laying for the layout) to see if it was given in the directions but a friend who once owned this kit (but sold it) thought he remembered them not being stated. The Walthers catalog (I'm not among the Walther's bashers, generally) does not give a footprint. Did you have to mock up (tape?) the structure together in order to get a workable track separation measurement or is it easier than that? Thanks again!
medina, thanks very much for the track separation/spacing specs. I hadn't opened the box yet (still under the benchwork as I finish up the last track laying for the layout) to see if it was given in the directions but a friend who once owned this kit (but sold it) thought he remembered them not being stated. The Walthers catalog (I'm not among the Walther's bashers, generally) does not give a footprint.
Did you have to mock up (tape?) the structure together in order to get a workable track separation measurement or is it easier than that?
Thanks again!
If you are building the HO wooden coaling tower, the dimensions are given on the website. Scroll down to the bottom of: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2922.
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
stebbycentral blownout cylinder: At least you were not trying to build one of these things... And my question is: Why are you?
blownout cylinder: At least you were not trying to build one of these things...
At least you were not trying to build one of these things...
And my question is: Why are you?
Because I can...
@JWhitten...actually the one I'm building is based around the Cyndustries Zeroscillator...http://www.cyndustries.com/modules_zero-osc.cfm
The one that I have right now has a 16 step sequencer as well as a few other goodies...namely phase box and echo...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
steinjr mokenarr: Just received some of those Cornerstone Modulars from Walters from modeltrainstuff. Opened a couple up and looked how they go together and seems they need some items called Pilasters, which they do not include in the kits. The nice pictures on the front show the buildings you can make, and the desciption says nothing about needing Pilasters, just mix and match to make your own building. Silly me ,but i guess thats what i expect from Walthers. Walthers sell both kinds in their Modular series - they sell kits that produce a whole building from modular elements, and they sell boxes of extra modular sections, which can be used for kitbashing. If you look at this search, it should be fairly obvious which ones produce a full building and which ones are sectional parts: http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Structure&scale=H&manu=Walthers&item=&keywords=Modular The ones that just have sectional parts are named things like "Walls with vehicle doors", "Large wall with single large arched window" and stuff like that. The ones that make whole buildings are named things like "Empire Leather", "Quality Investment", "3-in-1 building set". Shouldn't be that misleading. If I buy a pack labeled "Walls" or "Columns", I don't really expect to get a whole building. Smile, Stein
mokenarr: Just received some of those Cornerstone Modulars from Walters from modeltrainstuff. Opened a couple up and looked how they go together and seems they need some items called Pilasters, which they do not include in the kits. The nice pictures on the front show the buildings you can make, and the desciption says nothing about needing Pilasters, just mix and match to make your own building. Silly me ,but i guess thats what i expect from Walthers.
Just received some of those Cornerstone Modulars from Walters from modeltrainstuff. Opened a couple up and looked how they go together and seems they need some items called Pilasters, which they do not include in the kits. The nice pictures on the front show the buildings you can make, and the desciption says nothing about needing Pilasters, just mix and match to make your own building. Silly me ,but i guess thats what i expect from Walthers.
Walthers sell both kinds in their Modular series - they sell kits that produce a whole building from modular elements, and they sell boxes of extra modular sections, which can be used for kitbashing.
If you look at this search, it should be fairly obvious which ones produce a full building and which ones are sectional parts: http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?category=Structure&scale=H&manu=Walthers&item=&keywords=Modular
The ones that just have sectional parts are named things like "Walls with vehicle doors", "Large wall with single large arched window" and stuff like that.
The ones that make whole buildings are named things like "Empire Leather", "Quality Investment", "3-in-1 building set".
Shouldn't be that misleading. If I buy a pack labeled "Walls" or "Columns", I don't really expect to get a whole building.
Smile, Stein
But Stein, it's so much easier to point fingers and blame someone else than to say, "Gee, I really should have thought that out more carefully."!
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
mokenarr Just received some of those Cornerstone Modulars from Walters from modeltrainstuff. Opened a couple up and looked how they go together and seems they need some items called Pilasters, which they do not include in the kits. The nice pictures on the front show the buildings you can make, and the desciption says nothing about needing Pilasters, just mix and match to make your own building. Silly me ,but i guess thats what i expect from Walthers.
I just checked the Walthers site for their Cornerstone Modulars, and although it doesn't mention the need for columns, caps, etc., there is a link on the modular pages for "Columns and Caps". And, just below the description on the website, there's a link to download the "instruction sheet". In the instruction sheet, it shows the pilasters, columns, roofs, etc, and the part numbers for them.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Capt Grimek, if you're talking about the HO scale wooden coaling tower, I've built that kit. I just went down and measured my tracks, and they're exactly 2.5" from center to center.
well i went down to the LHS and purchased the needed Walthers Modular kit with Pilasters, B4 leaving i found that 3/16" styrene strips will fit in the slots on the modular pieces and 3/16" angles on the corners, so i can also use these for a different look.
BUT , i still think the way they did it stinks
Graffen Whoaaa there!! Do you mean that the manufacturers actually produces their cars WITHOUT any documentation??? IF they can build it, they shure as heck can write the first production date on the box! I think it all comes down to the fact that if they don´t do it, they believe that they will sell more of them as the customers might disregard the error..... WRONG! I have avoided to buy several cars in the past, as I don´t have complete documentation with me in the shop...... My thoughts..... PS, In Europe ALL rolling stock AND locomotives have the NEM era markings (Era I-VII), If NMRA would adopt that system it would be so much easier!
Whoaaa there!!
Do you mean that the manufacturers actually produces their cars WITHOUT any documentation???
IF they can build it, they shure as heck can write the first production date on the box!
I think it all comes down to the fact that if they don´t do it, they believe that they will sell more of them as the customers might disregard the error..... WRONG! I have avoided to buy several cars in the past, as I don´t have complete documentation with me in the shop......
My thoughts.....
PS, In Europe ALL rolling stock AND locomotives have the NEM era markings (Era I-VII), If NMRA would adopt that system it would be so much easier!
My friend, you are making rash assumptions about manufacturing records - at least as practiced in the US.
Let's start the cycle with the prototype car manufacturer. A steel car probably has a manufacturer's serial number assigned - and stamped somewhere. A wood car - there may not have been serial numbers back then. And there is likely a sales record of what block of serial numbers were sold to what railroad. This assumes the car manufacturer is still in business, and the records have not been lost to fire, house cleaning, etc., over the years.
When the railroad receives the car from the manufacturer, a set of that railroad's reporting marks are assigned. The car is tracked from then on by the reporting marks, and not by the manufacturer's serial number. In fact, there is a very good chance the manufacturer serial number is never recorded or documented by the railroad. The railroad purchase records would have the manufacturer and the date and the price and some kind of description - which may or may not match the manufacturer's description. Again, we assume all records still exist and can be located (certainly not true in all cases).
The "new" date in the reporting marks gets changed when there is a rebuild of the car, or specified maintenance is performed. It is a record, not of manufacture, but a base to calculate next rebuild or specified maintenance. Very much like a "time since overhaul" calculation for aircraft. TSO is key, not TSN (time since new).
Along come a group of model railroaders (aka amateur rail historians). They see a car they like. They take pictures and measurements. One of the group drafts up a set of plans and has them published in a magazine or sells them in a book. If we are lucky, the plans copied the reporting marks from the picture. So we have the reporting marks of a single car of that design, which may or may not be totally accurate, and may or may not have the actual build date.
A model manufacturer sees a set of plans in a book or magazine. He decides to produce a model from the pictures and plans he has from an easy search. He likely doesn't have the railroad purchase information - takes many hours to research and find if they still exist. The plans usually don't identify who built the car. And they don't tell him what other railroads bought that same car. The ORER has general descriptions of the car ownership of all US railroads of any given year. There's not enough to identify the specific car design in the ORER unless you know the original reporting marks, and have a complete set of ORERs to trace the numbers through.
And...any errors from the plans get reproduced in plastic or die cast metal (or even brass). This has happened time and time again where plans published have been later revealed to have errors. Painting the car in Santa Fe or PRR or NYC colors will guarantee some sales from the less discriminating modelers. And there are many free-lance modelers who have license to repaint any design - accurate or not - in their home railroad colors. Should these folks be cut out of the market because they don't appreciate your rigor and penchant for prototype modeling?
Occasionally, model manufacturers get their hands on factory erection drawings. They'll usually announce that in their ads - or at least in the package literature. But factory drawings are problematic, too. Railroads can and did have their cars altered from the catalog design, both on the production line and in their maintenance shops. Erection drawings do not capture these changes. Also, tax laws in the early part of the 20th Century made locally replacing all but the car number more economical than new production. But the changes are seen in the photos taken at a later date. So what date do you want modeled?
I've said it before, and I'm saying it now - the biggest hurdle in getting many wanted models produced is getting a decent data package put together. The manufacturer dreads producing a locomotive or car that is pilloried as "inaccurate" because some photo or set of measurements not in his data package shows significant differences from what he produced. Even worse is the "expert" who claims the model is not right, but has no data other than his words to back up his claim. Those manufacturers who value prototype fidelity the most generally have a set of experts they privately turn to for data package checks. These trusted folks sign NDAs or have similar agreements so that the manufacturer can announce his new model when he chooses.
Eras are not nearly as clear-cut in the US. Rolling stock was rebuilt and reused and updated as required until it was deemed scrap. As an example, the 1893 law mandated certain safety appliances (air brakes, Janney couplers, grab iron and ladder locations, etc.) But the final cutoff date was 1903, and then only for interchange service. Non-common carriers and non-interchange equipment would be subject to any applicable state laws. So a common carrier railroad in 1900 might easily have a very mixed bag of cars - notably some with air brakes and some without. And the 1893 act is a pretty clear-cut example. If you or anybody else can come up with a reasonable definition of eras for US practice, I'm sure both the NMRA and model manufacturers are listening.
I marvel at what a great job our model manufacturers and amateur historians do. Try researching particular cars on your own, and chances are you will end up agreeing with me.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
blownout cylinder At least you were not trying to build one of these things...
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
You can download a Walther's Modulars planning guide for free from their web site. I use this and one from DPM to mock up a building in cardstock so I know exactally which pieces that I need to purchase.
The mockups also make a nice stand-in building on the layout until I can get the structure built. In some cases I use the mock-up to evaluate my track plan.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/ho_n_modulars
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
richhotrain blownout cylinder: Maybe it is just me but I found there to be no problem with the Cornerstone Modular thing... I understood that the word..modular..meant precisely what it turns out to be...wall sections, foundation, roofing, pilasters et cetera would be sold separately. Well, good for you. But, modular doesn't mean sold separately. It means designed with standardized units or dimensions, as for easy assembly. The word you want is "piecemeal" which means a small amount at a time; in stages: articles acquired piecemeal. We are not saying that Walthers is deceptive in their advertising. They tell you on the cover of each kit what is included. The point is that they should tell you what is not included, yet necessary, to build even the most basic structure. The photo on every kit shows a completed structure, pillasters and all. There are selling it piecemeal. Rich
blownout cylinder: Maybe it is just me but I found there to be no problem with the Cornerstone Modular thing... I understood that the word..modular..meant precisely what it turns out to be...wall sections, foundation, roofing, pilasters et cetera would be sold separately.
Maybe it is just me but I found there to be no problem with the Cornerstone Modular thing...
I understood that the word..modular..meant precisely what it turns out to be...wall sections, foundation, roofing, pilasters et cetera would be sold separately.
Well, good for you.
But, modular doesn't mean sold separately. It means designed with standardized units or dimensions, as for easy assembly. The word you want is "piecemeal" which means a small amount at a time; in stages: articles acquired piecemeal.
We are not saying that Walthers is deceptive in their advertising. They tell you on the cover of each kit what is included. The point is that they should tell you what is not included, yet necessary, to build even the most basic structure. The photo on every kit shows a completed structure, pillasters and all. There are selling it piecemeal.
Rich
I agree. My guess is that a number of people dip their toes into the realm of kit-bashing / custom structures with their modular components. And while it's true that there's only so much they can realistically tell you about regarding what you can do with the components, or what else you might need, it would definitely be in their interest to put a little more info on the package to help folks understand what they're getting into.
In my case, I generally understood what the modular concept was going to mean, but I do agree about the pilasters, it wouldn't have occurred to me at all, had it not been the next item in the catalog, going down the list. That said though, I think the concept of offering modular components is a good one. When Walthers had their sale I reached deep and bought a bunch. I figure if nothing else, they're great for stocking the junk box with. I'm looking forward to when I can stop worrying about track planning and start populating my layout! :-)
John
Does not the picture on the package show the same thing that is shown on the Walthers website? For example: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3732. If so, then what is included in the kit is pretty well explanatory. Or is the packaging different or been changed?
blownout cylinder Maybe it is just me but I found there to be no problem with the Cornerstone Modular thing... I understood that the word..modular..meant precisely what it turns out to be...wall sections, foundation, roofing, pilasters et cetera would be sold separately.
Alton Junction
blownout cylinder Maybe it is just me but I found there to be no problem with the Cornerstone Modular thing... I understood that the word..modular..meant precisely what it turns out to be...wall sections, foundation, roofing, pilasters et cetera would be sold separately. At least you were not trying to build one of these things...
Meh, a few VCO's, VCA's and a fancy envelope generator... and no pilasters!
Amen, Fred. we have to take some initiative on our own when working with kit materials (which the Walthers kits are) and understand that they cannot dot every eye or cross every T with a clarity that would cover the novice who is just getting started. When I first started in the hobby (HO) in the mid 1950's, kits were a box with wood, wire, something that resembled glass and some glue, usually a tube of Ambroid. I made extra trips to the local hobbyshop many many times to buy some more wood, or something that I needed that wasn't in the kits.
I believe today's manufacturers do a pretty darn good job in producing kits. At least the siding has the brick work, etc. molded into the plastic, so that all I have to due is a little detailing and painting. But, everything is relative.
Bob
fwright hon30critter: I have also railed (pardon the pun) in the past about how manufacturers should be required to include specific dates for rolling stock. How hard could that be? Actually, quite difficult. There is no magic repository or database that is complete and error-free. The best bets to start would be the car builder's sales records. But even if you have access to the complete sales records for the appropriate time era, you would have to cross-match the design records with the sales records - usually significantly different descriptions for the same thing - and account for further sales by the railroads. With enough interested volunteers, a small enough total production, and copyright-free and corporate interference-free access to all the pertinent records, Shay locomotive production has been pretty much accounted for. Similarly, locomotive rosters for various railroads have been researched and published - some with more research and thoroughness and accuracy than others. Again, rail historians have done some car research for individual railroads like the D&RG/D&RGW, but that only accounts for what that railroad bought and sold, not what the car manufacturer sold of a given design. Are you really expecting Walters, or any other inexpensive model car manufacturer, to comb the various available records, guess at the omissions and contradictions, and secure rights to publish the info with their cars? All while complying with the desire for lower price points and greater accuracy of molding? my thoughts, your choices Fred W
hon30critter: I have also railed (pardon the pun) in the past about how manufacturers should be required to include specific dates for rolling stock. How hard could that be?
I have also railed (pardon the pun) in the past about how manufacturers should be required to include specific dates for rolling stock. How hard could that be?
Actually, quite difficult. There is no magic repository or database that is complete and error-free. The best bets to start would be the car builder's sales records. But even if you have access to the complete sales records for the appropriate time era, you would have to cross-match the design records with the sales records - usually significantly different descriptions for the same thing - and account for further sales by the railroads.
With enough interested volunteers, a small enough total production, and copyright-free and corporate interference-free access to all the pertinent records, Shay locomotive production has been pretty much accounted for. Similarly, locomotive rosters for various railroads have been researched and published - some with more research and thoroughness and accuracy than others. Again, rail historians have done some car research for individual railroads like the D&RG/D&RGW, but that only accounts for what that railroad bought and sold, not what the car manufacturer sold of a given design.
Are you really expecting Walters, or any other inexpensive model car manufacturer, to comb the various available records, guess at the omissions and contradictions, and secure rights to publish the info with their cars? All while complying with the desire for lower price points and greater accuracy of molding?
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hon30critter I have also railed (pardon the pun) in the past about how manufacturers should be required to include specific dates for rolling stock. How hard could that be?
I found out the hard way as well when I first purchased Walthers Cornerstone Modular kits. It takes at least 4 or 5 different kits to complete a building from foundation to roof. And even then, there is not enough in the kits to build much of a building. So, you really neee to buy a lot of each type of kit to build anything other than a small rectangular building.
At $10 or $12 per kit, it can cost a small fortune to build anything of substance. Recently, Walthers had most of the kits on sale for $4 per kit, just in time for a project that I was working on. Another problem with the kits is the limited number of parts in each kit such as windows, walls, etc. After buying a number of kits, I needed some "blanks" which are bricked up window openings. I emailed Walthers hoping to purchase a batch, only to be told that there were none available. I was not about to purchase a number of additional kits just to get the blanks which only came 4 to a kit.
The concept of "modular" is a good one, that is, the ability to "scratch build", if you will. In reality, you would be better off purchasing actual scratch building parts from Plastruct or Evergreen.
timely thread...does the OP or anyone else know the track separation for Walther's WOODEN Coal Tower?
I've got my tracks temporarily nailed down but hope not to have to tape my model together to even begin to plan.
Thank You.
I am in total agreement - Most current model railroad manufacturers offer far too little detail in their advertisments. Track center dimensions for a kit with two tracks is just plain elementary.
I have also railed (pardon the pun) in the past about how manufacturers should be required to include specific dates for rolling stock. How hard could that be? I even sent an e-mail to the NMRA regarding the same but they didn't bother to answer.
I guess that since we would only hurt ourselves by boycotting the delinquent manufacturers then I can only suggest that each of us make a point of speaking up by sending a note to each and every 'offending' manufacturer each time they 'offend'. I know that they are absolutley not trying to offend us. Ultimately we are dealing with good people in this industry. I am reasonably sure that if we get together and send a few messages along the same lines that they just might listen.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
For a company that is a major model railroad supplier/manufacturer, I would think that Walthers would put a little more honesty/clarity in their advertisements for products. I just built some of the Walthers track bumpers and was disappointed when I found that the picture on the bag/label and their catalog photos shows a bumper made from what looks like 2 pcs of rail bent and secured to the ground with flat bar stock bent to fit. The actual model has square main uprights with round supports bent to fit. Not a big thing but why don't they show the real model in the photos.
I also find that their instructions are very lacking in detail. I have their Ash Conveyor and Coaling tower kits that both require location on the tracks, but they fail to mention how far apart the tracks should be to work with their kit. Not a big deal but after I had my yard tracks in place I realized that the Ash Conveyor won't fit where I had hoped to put it and the Coal tower I had to temporarily tape together to see what track spacing I would need (I did this after I checked the Ash Conveyor). They show footprint diagrams on many of their kit boxes but none show track spacing, which would be helpful to know so we can plan for it.
Just my opinion ---Bob
I'm pretty sure it explicitly says you need the columns on the packaging. They're not even pictured on the front of the modular packages.
i have used DPM stuff on my other layout , just kinda went together , little glue and some paint and yahoooo, a brick building. Guess maybe thats why the walthers stuff was on sale ,everybody , except me, knows about these.
I bought a number of those kits too-- I kind of agree with the OP. I wouldn't have known to purchase the pilasters either had I not simply been going down the list buying a few of everything. (That *was* a nice sale!) I did realize that there were no roofs or foundations, but it didn't occur to me about the pilasters.