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Philosophy Friday -- Modeling the Railroad Town

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Posted by shayfan84325 on Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:45 PM

In my previous post I pointed out the importance of water stops with regard to the genesis of railroad towns.  I’d like to add a couple of additional comments that relate:

 

You can see evidence of the influence of water stops on the remaining Transcontinental Railroad roadbed that extends from the golden spike site and runs about 140 miles to the west.  There are signs marking the locations of communities – in particular: Lucin, Terrace, and Kelton.  These locations are all just about 50 miles apart, similar to the towns of Cheyenne, Laramie, Medicine Bow, and Rawlins, Wyoming.  In this way, the steam era left a permanent imprint on our 21st century maps.

By the way, you can drive the old roadbed if you have a decent off-road capable vehicle.  Most of the old trestles are still standing, and you can see old wyes and bits and pieces of Terrace and Kelton.  The cemetaries are somewhat intact, and the terrace turntable pit is easy to distinguish.  It's an interesting day trip for a properly equiped rail fan and/or historian (bring water and two spare tires - those old railroad spikes are rough on tires).

 

My other comment is that the railroad in Cache Valley, Utah is a sort of “counter-point” case.  It came after the towns were entrenched.  Thus, those communities have a different kind of spacing – the earliest towns:  Wellsville, Mendon, and Logan are all 6-8 miles apart (a reasonable day’s travel with a horse-drawn wagon).  These towns were established about 150 years ago.  More recently established communities have greater separation, presumably because roads and wagons improved in the late 19th century.

 

The railroad in the valley (originally the Utah Idaho Central Railroad) is essentially a loop of track and it runs through each town with connecting lines toward Salt Lake City and Pocatello.  This line was never steam; it was originally electric and it is now diesel, so there never were water stops to influence the location of any communities, and there are no remnants of the steam era.

Phil,
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Posted by jwhitten on Monday, March 14, 2011 9:21 PM

BATMAN

When I was a kid I often spent time visiting relatives in a town called Revelstoke. I played Hockey on outdoor rinks made by the railroaders next to the tracks. All talk in town and in the house was railroad talk. The town was there only because of the Railroad. Any other business was there to serve the railroad. To me this is a Railroad town. Revelstoke is what I am trying to model at one end of my layout. Here is a short film that talks about Revelstoke. I have two of those Canadian Pacific Pocket Watches they show in the jewelry store. One each from my two grandfathers.

http://www.nfb.ca/film/railroaders

                                                                              Brent

 

Cool videos. Thanks for the links. Even the name of the town is cool!

 

John

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, March 14, 2011 7:13 PM

When I was a kid I often spent time visiting relatives in a town called Revelstoke. I played Hockey on outdoor rinks made by the railroaders next to the tracks. All talk in town and in the house was railroad talk. The town was there only because of the Railroad. Any other business was there to serve the railroad. To me this is a Railroad town. Revelstoke is what I am trying to model at one end of my layout. Here is a short film that talks about Revelstoke. I have two of those Canadian Pacific Pocket Watches they show in the jewelry store. One each from my two grandfathers.

http://www.nfb.ca/film/railroaders

 

                                                                              Brent

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Posted by tgindy on Monday, March 14, 2011 11:50 AM

larak
Keep in the back of your mind that a town/city can host multiple railroads.

Here's the Johnstown railroads (circa 1956) -- a Pennsylvania 3rd Class City:

[1]  Pennsylvania Railroad -- 4-track mainline including the Broadway Limited and Union Passenger Station (surviving today as a Norfolk & Southern 3-track with the Amtrak Pennsylvanian).

[2]  Baltimore & Ohio -- Freight spur with a freight station and GP 9s (CSX today).

[3]  Conemaugh & Blacklick -- Bethlehem Steel's industrial railroad serving over a dozen miles of steel mills including the Freight Car Division (now FreightCar America) and home of the BethGons.

[4]  Johnstown Traction Company -- the US's largest PCC fleet in a 3rd Class City.

[5]  Johnstown Incline Plane -- world's steepest inclined plane (70.9% degree slope).

Note the diversity of railroad types:  Class I freight & passenger, Class I freight spur, steel industrial, freight car construction, city PCC traction, and mountain-side railroad to escape devasting floods in the valley.

Also, not to be undersestimated, is the scope of "the neighboring" PRR's locomotive shops from Altoona to Hollidaysburg that rivaled the size & scope of the Bethlehem Steel and US Steel mills in Johnstown.

About the only way to begin to model, or capture the flavor, of each railroad community is to think in terms of either town's operations by using backdrops in the distance and to model a specific industrial neighborhood in the foreground.

Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956

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Posted by dehusman on Monday, March 14, 2011 11:33 AM

jwhitten
   And I liked what Phil said too, about how all too often model railroaders paint things 'rusty' when a better choice would be dingy, dark and gray with some grit in it.

A lot of that is era and industry.  A lot  of the grey and grime is due to burning coal.  Any area with moderate industry will be gray and dingy due to the ash and smoke from coal burning.  It may be the associated industries that drive the dingy grey not the railroad itself.  There are a lot on dingy grey areas along railroad tracks even after steam engines are gone.

[quote] Thank you Phil-- that it one of those little gems that doesn't occur to you (well, me :-) until someone points it out-- and yet it is so obvious and true and right under your nose. So many of the railroad places that I've seen seem so sharp and super-crisp and have a gritty element I've never really been able to put my finger on-- but I think you just did it. It's the grit and grime and soot and dirt that gets stirred up and deposited all around the railroad that helps give it it's character, it's flavor, and helps (literally) to make it stand out-- accentuating every line, deepening every crevice... {/quote]

That's why the classic weathering treatment is a wash of black paint.

 However a "hard-working" railroad town is likely different-- where the railroad is deeply embedded in both the town and the town's memory and inhabitants, and how "wrapped around" the railroad they are. That's why Altoona seems (at least to me) so representative of the genre.

But if you travel one block away from the tracks, the town will look like any other town in a similar area and similar era, regardless of whether there are tracks through it or not.  The effect of the railroad only applies to the area immediately adjacent to the tracks.  Once you leave the tracks the city looks pretty much the same for blocks beyond that, and the real changes occur not because of the railroad but the era when the area was built up.

The hard part is finding a non-railroad served town of a similar size that that was founded before the 1950's.  And that may be the real mark of the "railroad town".  It exists because of the railroad and the services provided.  It would be difficult to find a significant city without rail service.

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Posted by m horton on Monday, March 14, 2011 10:26 AM

Ah, but not all railroad towns grow big or have large industries around them. Maybook, N.Y., western terminus of the NEW Haven had six railroads come in there in it's prime. the NH, the NYC, thr Erie, the O&W, the L&HRR,and the L&NE, yet except for all the railroad buildings, roundhouse, repair shops, ice house, hump yard,and YMCA, the town itself was a rural farming community. Think of how many towns and cities, sixty years ago had railroads in them and how important a part of the community they were. THere are dozens in New York state alone.

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Monday, March 14, 2011 8:49 AM

Interesting point about the dingy gray colors.  My wife teaches crafts to kids.  We have separate sets of acrylic craft paints.  Hers are all bright colors, while mine are mostly dark, with a preponderance of shades of gray and yucky greens.

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Posted by jwhitten on Monday, March 14, 2011 8:42 AM

Flashwave

I'm of the camp that there's a difference between a "railroad city" and a "city with a railroad". Depending on how modern you want to go, there's also the "railroad city that;sforgotten what it is." [..snip..]

To be a railroad town or city, the town has to embrace the railroad. [..snip..] everyone in town not only is aware of the trains, but looks out for them and knows how to tell the crews if someothing seems out of place, because the Railroad IS the town, though it may just blow on through.  

 

YES, I very much agree with you. I was having a conversation in PM with someone else recently and very much the same sentiment was expressed. All it takes is a drive along the path of a railroad artery and it's nearly always immediately clear which towns are "railroad towns" and which are not. And as you and several others have said, it's not even really the presence of the tracks that makes the statement, it's how the town wraps itself around the railroad.

And I liked what Phil said too, about how all too often model railroaders paint things 'rusty' when a better choice would be dingy, dark and gray with some grit in it. Thank you Phil-- that it one of those little gems that doesn't occur to you (well, me :-) until someone points it out-- and yet it is so obvious and true and right under your nose. So many of the railroad places that I've seen seem so sharp and super-crisp and have a gritty element I've never really been able to put my finger on-- but I think you just did it. It's the grit and grime and soot and dirt that gets stirred up and deposited all around the railroad that helps give it it's character, it's flavor, and helps (literally) to make it stand out-- accentuating every line, deepening every crevice-- as well as all blend together as it all settles back down over the corridors in which it travels, and the community it serves. The railroad cuts a swath along the path it travels which gets rendered in a manner seemingly unique to the railroad itself, although other industrialized spaces have some commonalities-- perhaps a part of the look is simply the influence of motors and machines operating in regular spaces...??

I think, based on the variety of answers I've read this weekend that perhaps what we're noticing and referencing isn't so much the idea of the "railroad town" per se, but rather an indication of how integrated into the town the railroad is. A town where the tracks run through that has a water (fuel) stop and a place to hammer out a ding might qualify technically as a "railroad town", but may not distinguish it from any other place, if it doesn't make much of an impact on the town itself. However a "hard-working" railroad town is likely different-- where the railroad is deeply embedded in both the town and the town's memory and inhabitants, and how "wrapped around" the railroad they are. That's why Altoona seems (at least to me) so representative of the genre.

Wow, there have been a lot of good responses this weekend. I hope there will be some more.

Modeling the South Pennsylvania Railroad ("The Hilltop Route") in the late 50's
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Posted by tstage on Monday, March 14, 2011 6:40 AM
Phil, Very interesting insight and input on the topic. Tom

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Posted by Flashwave on Monday, March 14, 2011 4:07 AM

I'm of the camp that there's a difference between a "railroad city" and a "city with a railroad". Depending on how modern you want to go, there's also the "railroad city that;sforgotten what it is." In the latter point, look at all the cities on the UP out West. Cheyanne was a tent town, then a railroad town, now it's a spwraling monstrocity with UP in the middle of it.

To be a railroad town or city, the town has to embrace the railroad. It's easiest to model one with yards and such, but the truer flavor may actually be the towns where the railroad has infrequent crew changes, or where a baclwater MofW crew camps out, a Helper sub perhaps. Small facilities, a bunkhouse, or better yet a Bed & Breakfast owned by a couple and frequented by the Rails, and everyone in town not only is aware of the trains, but looks out for them and knows how to tell the crews if someothing seems out of place, because the Railroad IS the town, though it may just blow on through.  

-Morgan

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Posted by jwhitten on Monday, March 14, 2011 2:17 AM

larak

Keep in the back of your mind that a town/city can host multiple railroads.  The city of Kingston, NY had four railroads. Three of them connecting at a "union" station and the fourth sharing a station with one of the others a few miles away. Three of the railroads terminated there, one ran through and had a large yard.  Population was only about 30k. 

That's a good observation. Connellsville PA is another example of that. As is Pittsburgh PA-- albeit a larger city.

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Posted by larak on Sunday, March 13, 2011 11:26 PM

Keep in the back of your mind that a town/city can host multiple railroads.  The city of Kingston, NY had four railroads. Three of them connecting at a "union" station and the fourth sharing a station with one of the others a few miles away. Three of the railroads terminated there, one ran through and had a large yard.  Population was only about 30k. 

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Posted by azrail on Sunday, March 13, 2011 11:18 PM

Typical of railroad towns are certain businesses that are near the yards or shops...bars, cafes, cheap hotels, pool halls - enterprises that , er, address the needs of the RR employeeSmile, Wink & Grin

A good example of a RR town out West is Winslow, AZ...founded by the Santa Fe and its largest employer. One of the streets along the yard had a number of the above businesses..some of which moved when Route 66 came through in the 20s

 

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Posted by RedGrey62 on Sunday, March 13, 2011 10:41 PM

Not that I will really add anything that hasn't already been said, but railroad towns, at least the part close to the tracks are built around the railroad itself.  As you look at buildings, industrial, commerical and residential conform to the railroad, not vice versa.  Also, roads are fit in anyway they can.  How many railroad towns have a "Railroad Ave"?  Many of the roads and depots were built in such a way that they became problems later on when commercial development encroached and more vehicles took to the road. 

Many towns built over or underpasses to get to the other side of the tracks.  You can see some pretty interesting engineering, especially with underpasses to get roads under the tracks. 

Changes to buildings, additions or outright changes in original purpose can give a feeling of the railroad and progress/changes.

And finally, clutter.  Seems railroads at one time didn't throw anything away.  Either storage areas or structures were built to store it or it just accumulated over time.  But the oddity about it is that it seems to be subtle. 

Ricky

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Posted by shayfan84325 on Sunday, March 13, 2011 10:08 PM

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I tend to think of railroad towns as having a fairly common genesis:  A steam locomotive can only go so far before it needs water, so the railroads placed water tanks along their routes.  The trains always stopped for water, and that made the water towers it a natural place to build loading/unloading facilities for passengers and freight.  Thus, these water stops grew and some took root and became towns.

Other towns were established without the benefit of rail service, and the railroads came to them as a business decision.

I’ve lived in both types of town, and also a third type – it once had rail service and then the trains stopped coming.  Virtually all traces of the track were erased, and thus the town was left with a railroad station and no sign of a railroad.

Considering the above and the other posts, I think that these are things to consider in getting the layout of a railroad town:

  • Since the railroad was there first, the railroad-related structures should indicate that they are the oldest thing in town.  For more current eras, some structures should be old, some should be unused remnants with more current replacements nearby and others should be barely visible remnants.
  • Some old railroad towns still have an old water tower (for example, the one at Bliss, Idaho still stands.  You diesel guys could take this as an opportunity to venture into the steam world, just a little).  These decommissioned towers are usually sans-spout.
  • The city structures nearest the railroad were probably the first buildings in town, so they should be the oldest.
  • It appears that railroads spread their shops around – track shops in one town, locomotive shops in another, etc.  So, it seems that part of the look is to establish the "service focus" of the location and model that aspect of railroad maintenance - and not to mix too many types of railroad shops in one town.

My feeling is that we do best if we think about how our towns and cities grew from nothing to what they are.  Someone built the first house, then someone else built a second; eventually there was commerce, etc.  We do well to consider the reason that they chose that spot for a house, for a business, etc., and we should consider how the town developed over the decades - then build models to match the story.

In terms of getting the “look”, from my own observations I've noticed that the backs of buildings face the tracks and this is practically universal.  There is typically a lot of junk and forgotten storage out back of the buildings.  I also notice that the ballast is oil and soot stained, and that the rail is usually dark gray on the sides, maybe slightly shinier on the head, but it is not rusty - I guess it receives an adequate coating of grease and oil to repel water.  There is almost no live vegetation, and what soil is visible looks contaminated (oily).

It also seems that railroad workers are semi-organized.  You see old wood crates and metal drums and buckets full of old parts and fasteners - usually more greasy than rusty.  There are also occasional parts here and there, as well as coils (and tangles) of wire rope and electrical cable.

I think that as model railroaders we tend to “rust” everything, but much of what makes the railroad part of railroad towns look the way they do are the shades of gray, from the ground up.

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Posted by m horton on Sunday, March 13, 2011 4:13 PM

In the city of Binghamton, N.Y., the freight yard was/is across the tracks from the station, right in the city, matter of fact the D&H yard was in the city limits also, so yards can be in the city. If you're modeling a big city be sure to add a modest sized freight house, as this place will see lots of traffic.

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Posted by DavidP on Sunday, March 13, 2011 2:44 PM

Railroad towns or a town that a Railroad goes through can be modeled. the relation is always obvious where the town center is, and railroad property structures are located. Downtown areas next to or parallel with tracks with stations and industries with sidings. = Railroad town,or Towns with vertical streets to tracks and the town center is no where in sight, no trackside structures,industries,sidings  = "Railroad go through town".I know this is DEEP but its just something i,ve observed. Dave

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Posted by jwhitten on Sunday, March 13, 2011 2:23 PM

dstarr

The essence of a railroad city?  Before automobiles, airlines, and trucking, all cities were railroad cities.  They all had lots of tracks, vast yards, engine terminals, and passenger facilities.  A city without rail just wasn't a city.  Rail was the only way to get around. 

    Cities in the pre railroad age were all ports, sea ports or river ports or lake ports.   The first railroads were laid from city to city and then out into the hinterland.  Their very names suggest their purposes. Baltimore and Ohio for instance, clearly intended to link sea port Baltimore with the markets along the Ohio river.   

   As far as modeling the railroad sections of town,  I don't think there is much difference between a place like Boston or Montreal (both sea ports) and Altoona, perhaps the quintessential rail road town.  Altoona is there because the Pennsy put in a vast engine terminal to service pushers helping trains up and over horseshoe curve.  Altoona sprang up around the Pennsy shops to furnish homes and groceries and shopping and the other amenities of life to the Altoona yard workers. 

The well bred inhabitants of places like Boston and Philadelphia used to turn up their noses at railroad towns like Altoona because they lacked libraries and theatres and museums and other aspects of culture, and were largely inhabited by blue collar workers rather than blue blood aristocrats. But I don't think that changes the look of the railroad sections of town that we are going to model.

   As far as squeezing a yard and a city into the same space, I wouldn't want to do that.  The rail facilities were never build in the center of town, land was too expensive downtown. The yards and shops and terminals were built on cheap land in the outskirts of town.  To me the backdrop of a yard ought to be a few industrial buildings (flats perhaps) and a backdrop of factories and smoke stacks as far as the eye can see. 

   My city ought to center up around the passenger station, as big and fancy as possible.   And some industrial blocks with tracks laid in the middle of the street and tiny switch engines spotting cars at factories.

 

 

I agree-- definitely don't want to try to squeeze in the heart of the city into the same space as the yard-- as I am grappling with the task of developing the yard and the city-- I have some mental pictures that kind of suggest what I want, but are not exactly. I think I'm honing in on it though-- I sat last night with a huge stack of prototype photos I've printed out for inspiration and tried to visualize the space, at the same time selecting representative photos that had some element or aspect included. As I placed them around and thought about the space, I started developing a better mental picture of what I'm trying accomplish. I found one really cool photo of a bisected yard which gave me the idea of dividing up some of the functionality into several smaller sections and then laying them out more long-wise than depth-wise (see my reply to the previous poster). While it kinda necessitates extending the area I had in mind to devote to the city, the more I think about it, the more I'm okay with it since there's also a lot of stuff you can do in cities. Plus I have the room, as long as I don't overdo it.

I agree also that in many ways Altoona does represent a quintessential railroad town, and has many of the elements in it that I'd like to represent on the layout. Not surprisingly, many of my prototype photos are of Altoona and surrounding areas. But I'm not wanting to make *Altoona* itself, rather just want to use it for inspiration. Areas of Enola, Renovo, South Amboy, etc. also inspire me in various aspects. Particularly in the look and feel of the yard itself and the associated railroad facilities.

Now if I could only find a way to punch out another 50 feet onto the back of the house I'd be all set! :-)

 

John

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Posted by jwhitten on Sunday, March 13, 2011 2:09 PM

m horton

 I don't think there is a true railroad city, but most big cities have a railroad or two in them. So there is no special look to them.

What should be modeled is up to you. What do you want, an industry or freight house, track side, or just the backs of buildings?

Depending on era, most urban areas are older brick buildings, cinder covered yard tracks, weeds and a lack of newness. Selective compression, building flats and background flats to achieve that tight look.

If you plan on a yard and have about 6" or less space for city scenes, maybe use 1" foam behind tracks and set building flats up higher, like tracks are in the valley. Using your first photo as a guide, you start with the backdrop, light blue sky, dark blue for the first mountain, dark green for the second, then paper background buildings, building flats. Notice from the photos, the bricks are various shades but you see no mortar lines, also the tracks are ballasted with cinders and lack color or weeds.

Art Curren did a kit bash of city buildings as a view block back in January 1999 issue of MR, by using the same ideas, as building flats, you could achieve a city look.

 

Thanks, those are useful suggestions! I've been considering that 6-inch problem carefully. I think I have a plan to make it work out though-- as I turn the corner (180 degree turn back) from the front side to the back side, I'm thinking of starting the city on the front side, continuing it around the corner, and on around to the back. That way I can take advantage of the deeper spaces necessitated by the larger radius of the turn. That will give me some room to model some more of the "city proper" which means I won't be competing for space (depth) quite so much by the time it makes it around to the yard. A secondary benefit is that it will permit me to put relatively "static" stuff in the deeper spaces which will be harder to reach into. I was also thinking of having the mainline bisect the scene so the yard extends on both sides of it-- that will permit me to utilize more of the length for yard functions and concentrate less on depth (i.e., make little "mini yards" and related facilities, for lack of a better term, spread out over the length of the deck, as opposed to bunched up and competing for depth). If I do it right, that could add some operational interest as well with transfer runs between the spaces.

I don't mind if the city expands a bit, I've already been toying with the idea of letting it spill down the rest of the length and then have another small yard space around the corner (turn back) at the far other end. That yard would be a holding / exchange yard for some larger industry located in the vicinity, to be determined. I just don't want the whole layout to become nothing but city, nor do I want to make the city so large it unbalances the other towns. But there is a lot you can do in the confines of a mid-sized city, along with its outlying industrial areas. I have a number of ideas I'm exploring as I think through what I want (and what I don't). I've already decided I'm going to put down more pink foam in the yard areas around the city so I can have some flexibility for awhile before deciding on a particular specific track plan for it. Let the rest of the layout grow up some and see what's needed before completely committing the space.

 

John

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Posted by dstarr on Sunday, March 13, 2011 12:26 PM

The essence of a railroad city?  Before automobiles, airlines, and trucking, all cities were railroad cities.  They all had lots of tracks, vast yards, engine terminals, and passenger facilities.  A city without rail just wasn't a city.  Rail was the only way to get around. 

    Cities in the pre railroad age were all ports, sea ports or river ports or lake ports.   The first railroads were laid from city to city and then out into the hinterland.  Their very names suggest their purposes. Baltimore and Ohio for instance, clearly intended to link sea port Baltimore with the markets along the Ohio river.   

   As far as modeling the railroad sections of town,  I don't think there is much difference between a place like Boston or Montreal (both sea ports) and Altoona, perhaps the quintessential rail road town.  Altoona is there because the Pennsy put in a vast engine terminal to service pushers helping trains up and over horseshoe curve.  Altoona sprang up around the Pennsy shops to furnish homes and groceries and shopping and the other amenities of life to the Altoona yard workers. 

The well bred inhabitants of places like Boston and Philadelphia used to turn up their noses at railroad towns like Altoona because they lacked libraries and theatres and museums and other aspects of culture, and were largely inhabited by blue collar workers rather than blue blood aristocrats. But I don't think that changes the look of the railroad sections of town that we are going to model.

   As far as squeezing a yard and a city into the same space, I wouldn't want to do that.  The rail facilities were never build in the center of town, land was too expensive downtown. The yards and shops and terminals were built on cheap land in the outskirts of town.  To me the backdrop of a yard ought to be a few industrial buildings (flats perhaps) and a backdrop of factories and smoke stacks as far as the eye can see. 

   My city ought to center up around the passenger station, as big and fancy as possible.   And some industrial blocks with tracks laid in the middle of the street and tiny switch engines spotting cars at factories.

 

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Posted by m horton on Sunday, March 13, 2011 11:35 AM

 I don't think there is a true railroad city, but most big cities have a railroad or two in them. So there is no special look to them.

What should be modeled is up to you. What do you want, an industry or freight house, track side, or just the backs of buildings?

Depending on era, most urban areas are older brick buildings, cinder covered yard tracks, weeds and a lack of newness. Selective compression, building flats and background flats to achieve that tight look.

If you plan on a yard and have about 6" or less space for city scenes, maybe use 1" foam behind tracks and set building flats up higher, like tracks are in the valley. Using your first photo as a guide, you start with the backdrop, light blue sky, dark blue for the first mountain, dark green for the second, then paper background buildings, building flats. Notice from the photos, the bricks are various shades but you see no mortar lines, also the tracks are ballasted with cinders and lack color or weeds.

Art Curren did a kit bash of city buildings as a view block back in January 1999 issue of MR, by using the same ideas, as building flats, you could achieve a city look.

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Posted by Forty Niner on Sunday, March 13, 2011 10:19 AM

Hey John, I think your question this week was a bit too "cerebral" for the majority here.

Maybe next week you could ask "what's your favorite color boxcar"?

Bet you'd get a lot more responses................;-]

Mark

WGAS

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Posted by Forty Niner on Sunday, March 13, 2011 8:37 AM

Ah.......G Heileman Brewing, "Old Style" beer, good stuff there! My grandad used to buy it in the 7 oz bottles 36 to a case and I grew up drinking those little midgets. Of course that was in the 1950's and my family was 100% German, beer to us was like wine to the Italians and the kids were included.

Sure would like to have some "Old Style" now just for the memories..........

Mark

WGAS 

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Posted by jrbernier on Friday, March 11, 2011 8:56 PM

  A 'Railroad Town' does not have to be a big urban area.  As others have pointed out the large division point terminals existed in towns of under 50,000 population(and many times smaller).  A good case in point is La Crosse, WI.  The Twin Cities-Chicago main lines of the CB&Q and the Milwaukee Road crossed there(at 'Grand Crossing).  The C&NW and GB&W also crossed both of them at Grand Crossing as well.  The 'Q' and the 'St Paul Road' both had large division point yards in La Crosse.  With several large industries(Cargill/Trane/G Heileman Brewing), there were a tracks wandering through town as well.  And this was a classic 'River Town' as well on the Mississippi River.  A good share of the working population were 'railroad' employees.  Other towns like Savanna, IL and Austin, MN also had a large railroad presence.

  My layout does not have a large urban area; just a small town with a 4 track yard serving a branch line and a large Swift packing plant.  I have a little bit of 'Railroad Avenue' behind the depot, but this is rural Wisconsin.  But be aware - the railroad is the major employer here....

Jim

 

Modeling BNSF  and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin

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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Friday, March 11, 2011 7:51 PM

I would say that a railroad city or town is one where the railroad is the largest primary employer, accounting for more than 60% of the primary jobs in the city or town.

To model such a city, you need to model the railroad facilities that employ lots of people.  Roundhouse, backshop, car shops, major yards, etc. 

The key to modeling such a city in a small space is to have some models of railroad facilities and have more on the backdrop.  Don't have other major industries, factories, port facilities, etc as models or on the backdrop. 

Enjoy

Paul

If you're having fun, you're doing it the right way.
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Posted by leighant on Friday, March 11, 2011 5:54 PM

I see the question as having two parts- the problem of modeling a city in a limited space, and the question of modeling the character of a RAILROAD town/city.  To this, my layout adds a third situation- the desire to capture the character of a particular place.-- Galveston Island, Texas.  For the railroader, Galveston is a sea of tracks-- but only on the back, channel side of the island.

 

 

 

One normally would view this looking towards ships visible over the portside cargo sheds.

 

 

 

There are half a dozen  tracks on the cargo shed side of Port Industrial Boulevard, and more tracks on the side towards the camera....

 

But Galveston is known visually to most visitors for views away from the tracks...

 

Wide divided boulevards lined with palm trees, oleander and bouganvillaea vines.

 

This garden scene is actually an old cotton warehouse district, four blocks long. 

 

Was I should say.  The warehouse fronts replaced by strip convenience stores and gas stations since this picture was taken.

 

An entire commercial district of Victorian business buildings five blocks long, with an Art Moderne station (now the railroad museum) at the end of the street.

 

 

Large residential districts full of Victorian homes.

 

A seawall beachfront with tourist-oriented buildings, including a pier which was a notorious gambling spot 60 years ago.

 

 

But this photo was before Hurricane Ike, which destroyed the prototype.

 

To capture the feel of THIS city, I devote a fair amount of layout space to non-railroad items.

 

Causeway scene- 2 inches of depth for track (1 track) out of 14 inch scene depth.

 

Seawall and amusement/ residential district- 2 inches of depth for track out of 20 inch scene depth.

 

 

 

This section was originally 14 inches deep, same as causeway, but I added 6 inches to allow a smidgeon of the beach, and it also allows modeling the World War II shore defense gun battery emplacement.

 

Approximately 100 bathers set aside to CROWD a 6 by 8 inch beach scene.

http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/data/500/Bathers.jpg

prototype gun bunkers

 

But after 3 city street blocks of single-track running, the railroad widens out into leads for a Santa Fe yard, Wharves railroad yard, and Wharves railroad dockside spurs. 

 

 

Very little room would be left behind the track for structures.  Background painting will have to provide a setting for cotton compress and sheds.

  

I’m going to need to touch up the trees...

Moving along to the “railroadiest” part of the layout, a sea of tracks with a five-track Santa Fe freight yard nearest the viewer, a three-track Wharves Railroad behind it, and then a five-track open staging yard for freight trains behind that.  The freight trains in open staging are actually set up to go to or of have come the Santa Fe yard, but I am counting on them masquerading as part of “another railroad” in the general “sea of tracks” like the side-by-side yards of the prototype.  I name the open staging “Demara Yard” after the title character in the movie The Great Imposter.

 

This part of the layout will be 13 tracks wide in about 22 inches of depth.  I have so far built the open staging and created the background behind it.

 

The passenger station area will have 5 passenger, baggage and freight house tracks for the Santa Fe, with another 3 visible tracks belonging to the Wharf Railroad further back.  The Santa Fe and the Wharf RR will be visually divided by a street, but I will get back some of that real estate for rails by running a through track for the Wharf RR in the pavement.  Behind the visible Wharf RR tracks, a long cargo shed covers 3 hidden staging tracks for passenger consists.  I computer-visualize it to look somewhat like this-

 

 

A recent mockup with one chunk of cargo shed roof and passenger cars under it.

 

 

The far end of the layout will feature a block and a half square chunk of picturesque Victorian-holdover downtown commercial buildings, IN FRONT of the relatively small amount of railroad.

 

So, in some places, lots of track, in others a fair amount of city... and some sense of the changing flow of types of districts through the city.

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Posted by PRR_in_AZ on Friday, March 11, 2011 4:13 PM

What is the essence of a railroad city? What gives it that certain look and flavor?

Well, having grown up in Altoona, your photos bring back a lot of memories.  Funny thing is, your pictures are from the 50's and I grew up during the 70's and 80's but the town hasn't changed all that much.  I think the thing that gives the railroad town that signature look is the structures.  Altoona is old.  Most of the structures there are masonry and brick.  Most everything in the downtown areas close to the railroad are red brick color.  Not too many structures over ten stories.  Altoona has a lot of bridges and these were mostly made of steel.  Most of the houses in town are of the two story company house style, at least in the part of town closest to the railroad.

-- How does that translate into what can or should be modeled, from a model railroading perspective?

I guess that would depend on what your goal is of the layout.

-- How can the use of the third dimension (elevation) help in planning and creating convincing city scenes?

One thing about Altoona is that it lies in a valley.  The railroad/facilities and shops run through the middle and the town is pushed up onto the hillsides.  This is why Altoona has so many bridges, because the railroad forms a substantial barrier, like a river, that cuts the town in two.  Anyone who wants to model this area successfully and capture the flavor has to think about the railroad being lower in elevation than the surrounding town.

-- And a question that I've been especially grappling with-- How can you convincingly combine a nice-sized yard, say 10-12 tracks wide *and* a city in a relatively shallow- 24-30 inch depth space? Does something have to give? If so, what are the alternatives?

If you've ever been to the Railroader Memorial Museum in Altoona, (the new one in the old PRR Master mechanics building), they have an HO scale layout built by Dunham Studios that show some of the Juniata shops and surrounding trackage.  It's very nicely done and the shop buildings are exquisite.  One thing they did that was very successful and really captures the feel of the town is that they used selective compression of a hillside rising into a corner of the layout.  On that hillside they use smaller and smaller houses that are nestled amougst the tree covered landscape.  Mostly all you can see is the rooftops, but the results are fantastic and even work while you're standing there looking at it in person and not something designed to work just for a photograph.  Dave Frary has talked about this technique in one of his books along with others I'm sure.

Chris

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Posted by gandydancer19 on Friday, March 11, 2011 2:14 PM

-- What is the essence of a railroad city? What gives it that certain look and flavor?
The tracks and trains.  The closer to the buildings and roads the better.  Make it crowded.  Make it look dirty within the RR area.

-- How does that translate into what can or should be modeled, from a model railroading perspective?
Trains and tracks first.  Then see what you can shoe-horn in around them.

-- How does one achieve the requisite "look" of the density, industrialization, and grit that is so common in those prototypical areas, in the typically small or narrow areas left-over on the layout?
Backdrops go a long way in helping to get that look.  Then backdrop buildings and flats.  Then blend all that together with weathering.  I would favor black weathering to get that "grime" feel.

-- How can the use of the third dimension (elevation) help in planning and creating convincing city scenes?
Most places that I have seen while traveling seem to have the RR and the yards in low flat areas.  These were probably natural when the RR's first came to the area.  Then as the towns and cities grew up around them, they were on higher ground.  Probably because the RR's used up all the flat low lying areas.  At least this seems to hold true in the hilly areas of the country, and that seems to be what most of us model because of the height variation.

-- And a question that I've been especially grappling with-- How can you convincingly combine a nice-sized yard, say 10-12 tracks wide *and* a city in a relatively shallow- 24-30 inch depth space? Does something have to give? If so, what are the alternatives?

I think 12 tracks will take up 26 inches if you stick to 2" centers.  That leaves 4 inches for scenery behind them if 30 inches wide.  Granted that is not much, but it can be worked with.  Out of those 12 tracks, one may be a mainline, and a second the Arrival-Departure track/passing siding.  That leaves 10 tracks for the yard.  

To make the scenery work in such a narrow area, it has to be layered.  Low stuff in front and taller in back as you progress from front to back.  So lets say you put your yard in as close to the front on the bench work as you can.  Right behind that next to the track is a fence.  I like board fences because they add character.  Then behind that, a background building.  Behind that a backdrop flat, then on the wall a background city scene.  Behind that, painted on the wall, some flowing hills.  The more space you can leave between layers, the better it will look, but sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and squish it all in.  Adding trash and other small details in the area will help.

Here is a photo of my city (a work in progress).

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by tstage on Friday, March 11, 2011 2:02 PM

ctclibby

A little different perspective - Essex Pit supplied all the ballast ( Montana pink ) for miles both ways on the RoW.  We even have ( still ) roads paved with the stuff.  I have visited it multiple times and it is amazing how little of a hole there is in the side of the mountain!  There isn't really a town except for the Issac Walton Inn which was a crew/cook house back then.  Nowdays that Inn is a flag stop for Amtrak with people getting on/off most every day.

As a modeler, we kinda create the cart before the horse.  Figure out what your railroad needs to make a buck, then build it.  Remember that old addage: "If you build it, they will come!"  Over the years those small towns grew, stagnated or became ghosts...

ctclibby

As Todd points out, you don't have to have or need a large city to model a RR town.  Small towns and depots, whose primary business and reason for existence were due to the RRs, were more plentiful and just as needed as the larger cities their freight was headed to or came from.  And the two, obviously, have to be modeled quite differently; as you will find aspects of RRing on one that you will not find on the other.

Percentage-wise, small towns (as a whole) were much more set up and focused on meeting the needs of their perspective RRs and personnel than their bigger siblings.  Conveniences and necessities might need to be much closer in proximity in a town vs. a city - e.g. temporary housing for RR employees and very little taxi or bus service available.  Storage or track space (for unloaded and loaded cars) could be much more limited in a small RR town.  And - depending on the era that you model - the process of unloading and loading cars in town might become more, or sometimes less, reliant upon manual labor or processes than they would in a larger, thriving metropolis.

Although much more subtle than the city, RR towns have their own unique appeal and nuances in regards to modeling as they don't require the large acreage of real estate that a city would require.  This does NOT necessarily mean that a town is or should be less detailed.  Details of urban life can be just as intricate and fascinating to look at, as well as challenging to model, as a skyline of a large city.

John, the MR forum examples you've noted of well-modeled RR towns are indeed fine examples for us to appreciate and find inspiration from.  I must add that I - as a mere mortal - neither fantasize nor desire to model my humble realm after George Sellios' fine-crafted F&SM layout.  While George's detail work is indeed impressive, I think the former examples do a finer job of realistically depicting what they are modeling.

Tom

https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling

Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.

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