Steam and diesel together

[selector]

It's getting far off topic now, and I think the aim of the OP has been met long since.

Crandell

[locked]

[andrechapelon]

But it's your claim to be the only representative of "serious" model railroading -- which. when you say it that way, implies that it is the only truly correct form of the hobby, and that everything else is casual, or not taken seriously, or some such.  The spurious claim to the title of Model Railroader is the issue.

I would be very, very careful about what you say lest the Torquemada of Model Railroading haul you before the Model Railroading Inquisition for heresy.

In some respects, the Grand Inquisitor of Model Railroading reminds me of a home owner's association president, who, drunk with power, does his utmost to force his way of doing things and his view of reality on everybody else. But then, that pretty much describes an HOA. Fortunately, it doesn't yet describe the hobby.

There is only one model railroading and YKW is its prophet. Scorn him at your own peril, oh Giordano Bruno of the train set.  To quote Robin Williams, "You'll smoke a <censored> in <censored> for saying that" ("The Survivors" - 1983).

BTW, I do have an extra fire extinquisher I'd be glad to send you should you find the flames licking at your feet.

Andre

 

[fwright]

vicious-peanut

I was just wondering if anyone has locomotives from different eras?  It seems like a bunch of guys are really serious about modeling a period of only 5-10 years.  I am more interested in building my layout with structures that are 1950's ish, and then just running whatever I want.  Steam and diesel.  Probably not at the same time, I will take the steamers off when the big diesels run, but the building might look a bit old with the big diesels. 

Going back to the OP - are you looking for validation of your point of view?  Or are you concerned about what those of us who adhere to a specific era think of your version of the hobby?

I'm one of those who works with a focused time era.  I enjoy doing the research.  I enjoy learning about how railroads were constructed and operated in the 1880s - 1900 time period.  It was a time of great change within the railroad industry.  At the same time, the country was going through recessions and depressions on a regular basis, which made financing railroads and their operations far riskier than today's housing prices.  Railroads were the essential mode of overland transportation; over 10% of the nation's work force was employed in constructing, operating, maintaining, and supplying railroads.  The everyday life of the average Joe was considerably different from today.  Trying to understand how these factors impacted railroad decisions is fun for me.

Modeling my conclusions and findings in miniature gives my layout a purpose and reason for bothering.

I have been the Lionel route for many years, enjoying it both as a kid and with my kids.  There is a special magic about playing with toy trains, and I bear no grudge against those whose hobby is that.  Reality is that today's mass-produced HO and N scale RTR production is about duplicating the '50s success of Lionel with today's adults.  The mass-market appeal is to both collectors and those who aren't all that concerned with prototype or era.  I can really see the development of the toy train magic among adults in the demand for sound and smoke and marker lights, and the serious discussions of all these "features" in the latest and greatest model locomotives. 

The character of this market also shows in what model locomotives have the best sales and/or get produced as mass market items.  If most followed prototype practices or adhered to an era, there would be no market for 4-5 different manufacturers of Big Boys and Challengers.  The Triplex model would never see the light of day.

Yes, the truth is the "dabbling" side of the hobby has always been far larger in numbers than the "serious" side.  That doesn't mean the more serious side doesn't exist.  What I do find very interesting is that despite the constant repetition of the "do anything you want" message, there seem to be a fair number that are still concerned that their "all years, all prototypes" layouts aren't what they really wanted or envisioned.  The contortions that are gone through - excursion trains; multiple sets of rolling stock, automobiles, and structures; "buildings didn't really change much"; implausible alternate histories - to justify the clashes with realism are my evidence of this latent desire to build a more realistic layout.

That CNJ's opinions are greeted with such anger says to me that his words struck a sore spot of truth.  If the "do anything you want" message really took, CNJ's opinions would be laughed off.  But the underlying story is that there are many who want to be considered serious model railroaders by those who are serious while knowingly remaining in the toy train magic kingdom.

just my opinions and thoughts

Fred W

....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....

[CTValleyRR]

CNJ831

CT, when I responded to the OP's question it was to make him aware that the opinions expressed on this forum are not the only, or even necessarily broadly representative of, the hobby's actual take on the situation presented. Too many folks seem to have failed to appreciate that.

As to the point about "opinions", I can back what I say with clear examples and hobby history supporting my stance, something I assure you that you cannot do for your position. There clearly are a number of distinctly separate hobbies that many folks mistakenly wish to lump together and call "model railroading" so they can feel included. But that does not actually make it so.

CNJ831 

 

@@

I've said my piece.  I will continue to support the freedom of individuals to believe whatever makes them happy or to feel better about themselves.

[CNJ831]

CT, when I responded to the OP's question it was to make him aware that the opinions expressed on this forum are not the only, or even necessarily broadly representative of, the hobby's actual take on the situation presented. Too many folks seem to have failed to appreciate that.

As to the point about "opinions", I can back what I say with clear examples and hobby history supporting my stance, something I assure you that you cannot do for your position. There clearly are a number of distinctly separate hobbies that many folks mistakenly wish to lump together and call "model railroading" so they can feel included. But that does not actually make it so.

CNJ831 

 

[B&O SteamDemon]

Greetings, if you are switching back and forth here's an idea, Chessie ( yes pre CSX ) in the post merger of WM, C&O, and B&O used to run mixed diesel of different eras as motive power, especially in the coal regions.  I have several books and pictures showing F units being used in the early  to mid 70's as helpers and a few BL-2 still in the WM paint scheme being used as helpers.  So who is to say if your layout is based on a location not on the main line but some back water area that there might be a few steamers still in service as helper units or as extras.  But in real life Chessie didn't get rid of the older diesels until the mid 70's or later before they sold or scrapped the last of the F units and Baldwins as well as the early Geeps.  Plus most of the building both for the Railroad as well as the different towns remained the same only the cars and advertisement change.  In several locations in WV in the mid 70's there were grade crossings still using a live person holding a sign to warn and stop motorist.  these were road and trackage leading to coal mines.  But by late 70's all were updated.  Just an idea and some historical knowledge about how a Class 1 road used old diesel power.

 

Ray 

[JimValle]

On my Pennsy themed layout I run three eras for four months of the year  each. First is all steam, then comes steam-diesel transition and finally all first generation diesel.  That's a spread of only about ten years so structures can pretty much stay the same.  I have a friend who models four stages of the Rutland for three months each.  He starts with late steam, than first generation diesel, than early Vermont Railroad and finally late Vermont Railroad.  He has a different stable of locomotives and a different lineup of rolling stock for each era.  He doesn't switch out structures but he could probably have different eras of structures if he felt it was necessary.  This plan takes a lot of locomotives and rolling stock carefully labled and stored segregated by era.

[CTValleyRR]

CNJ831

I'm am sorry, CT and MH, but you are mistaken. Whether the folks here like to acknowledge it, or not, there are a number of distinctly separate hobbies in play when it comes to model trains and there has always been. There are the collectors; the folks running just "toy" trains like Lionel/Flyer; the scale model train enthusiasts/casual hobbyists and finally the serious model railroaders. Just because all of these involve miniature trains of one sort or another does not automatically make them the same hobby. Up until quite recently even the magazines themselves distinctly reflected the dichotomy that exists between the casual and serious scale hobbyists through their content and the obviously dissimilar types of advertising found in their pages (the latter still remains true today). The same sort of division is also obvious if you peruse a reasonably broad selection of model railroad forums and see how they are separated into simple train enthusiasts and dedicated craftsman modelers/operators.

You are free to claim otherwise if you like, but the facts demonstrate the reality of the situation.

CNJ831 

I do claim otherwise, and that claim carries no more validity than yours.  Either way, it's an opinion.

But it's your claim to be the only representative of "serious" model railroading -- which. when you say it that way, implies that it is the only truly correct form of the hobby, and that everything else is casual, or not taken seriously, or some such.  The spurious claim to the title of Model Railroader is the issue.

You're absolutely right, in that the hobby is divided into several groups of devotees, each of which finds something of value in the hobby.  The problem arises when one segment of hobbyists claims superiority over the rest.  In the quality of modeling and the fidelity of operations, I am prepared to grant you the title, or at least a share of it.  You rule that end of the hobby which I label accurate prototype modeling and operations.  But that's no more "true" or "serious" model railroading than my friend whose layout contains dinosaurs, polar bears, and all kinds of unprototypical vignettes.  His work is truly awe inspiring, and I've never seen anyone who takes his hobby more seriously, but he makes no pretension to realism.  And yet I would consider both of you "serious" model railroaders.

I guess, if you can't see it from that perspective, I'll stop wasting my breath, because there's only on applicable response in that case:  @@

[Hamltnblue]

There is a group within the hobby that are more detail oriented and label themselves as the Serious crowd.

When you look at one of their loco's or rolling stock they're more likely going to be closer to an exact replica of the full scale version.  Because of this they will often modify existing models using scratch build materials or even scratch build it themselves.  They do excellent work and most admire the results.

The only issue that comes up is the tendancy to look or talk down to those not in their camp.

I don't think it's anything personal, just a group identification.

Similar to my Titanic comparison, they sit on the same toilet, get buried in a similar hole, and have relatives treat the models the same when they pass.

[m horton]

John, you have a grasp on the obvious, but what is a serious model railroader? You state this, just answer the question,Then show your facts on this seriuos hobbist. Where are they? mh

[Hamltnblue]

I think that can be quite true.  Visiting clubs you'll see it sometimes.

I see model railroading like the movie Titanic.  You have the Serious people on the upper decks with their nose in the air, trying to impress each other and never cracking a smile.

Then you have the Casual people. Hanging in the basement, not judging each other and having a great time with big smiles.  

[CNJ831]

I'm am sorry, CT and MH, but you are mistaken. Whether the folks here like to acknowledge it, or not, there are a number of distinctly separate hobbies in play when it comes to model trains and there has always been. There are the collectors; the folks running just "toy" trains like Lionel/Flyer; the scale model train enthusiasts/casual hobbyists and finally the serious model railroaders. Just because all of these involve miniature trains of one sort or another does not automatically make them the same hobby. Up until quite recently even the magazines themselves distinctly reflected the dichotomy that exists between the casual and serious scale hobbyists through their content and the obviously dissimilar types of advertising found in their pages (the latter still remains true today). The same sort of division is also obvious if you peruse a reasonably broad selection of model railroad forums and see how they are separated into simple train enthusiasts and dedicated craftsman modelers/operators.

You are free to claim otherwise if you like, but the facts demonstrate the reality of the situation.

CNJ831 

[m horton]

John, I've met you, seen your work in person,seen your photos on the web and in print. You do great work, but,....What is a serious model railroader? Seriously,what is he? Is he like a serious golfer, fisherman, drinker? You mention this a lot. It's bogus. If you remember that not so scientific poll recently, most guys fall into the mid 40's/60's age group, growing up with Lionel, American Flyer, and early HO. WE all ran what ever we could and enjoyed the simplistic approach of it all. Now, we all so well educated on everything from track to buildings to couplers and everything in between, we've lost what it's about. Just expensive toy trains being used by old men. Nothing more, nothing less. Go to all those other forums, you see great buildings and less than stellar rolling stock. It's a hobby, what makes it more serious, how much time, money or effort you spend? BS, pure BS, my friend. If the writer asked about a specific road and set of years to model steam and diesels, you could justify it, but just because the "casual Dabbler" wants to run steam and diesel, there's no body going to claim the he's not taking his modeling serious. Stop trying to sell the holier than thou approach to toy trains, it's a hobby pal, plain and simple. Run what you want bro, it's all good. Merry Christmas mh.

[CTValleyRR]

Thank you, CNJ, for trying to turn yet another thread into a "You're not a real model railroader if...." discussion.

Some people will always refuse to admit that it takes all kinds to make a hobby.  I will grant that there is a segment of practitioners who desire total prototypical appearance and operation, as well as museum quality everything, but they no more represent the "real" or "serious" hobbyist than does anyone else.  The only thing "serious" about them is how they view themselves.

If that level of realism is for you, then do it.  If it isn't, do what makes you satisfied.  The vast majority of us won't put you down, and won't make you feel any less worthy of being called a Model Railroader.

[CNJ831]

Vicious - You are, of course, free to do whatever you please on your own layout and there is certainly no lack of hobbyists who run all different eras and contrasting sorts of equipment and feel no pangs.

However, your question can also be taken as dealing with whether one wishes to be taken seriously in the hobby, or simply be regarded as a casual hobbyist/dabbler. Those in the former group make a decided effort to replicate a more-or-less specific time frame with their layout, running only era appropriate equipment and have scenery to match. The latter group are more akin to the Lionel toy train hobbyists, whose main interest is simply playing with trains, lacking any specificity.

This forum is largely composed of hobbyists with a leaning toward the latter group, so the replies will trend accordingly. Were you to visit one of the more serious forums and ask your question, you would find the "I want to run anything I desire" outlook not to be taken at all seriously.

So, in the final analysis, it comes down to a personal decision of what type of model railroad hobbyist you wish to be.

CNJ831  

[steemtrayn]

I won't pull wooden boxcars with my SD60s, but I have no problem with double stacks riding behind my unstreamlined J.

[cedarwoodron]

Some of us who were born in the early 50s grew up with the promises of technology to come amidst the beginnings of the Space Age. We never gave thought to the fact that the sparkling new suburbs we were growing up in would actually still look fairly nice and neat when WE were growing older, or that modernistic steel and glass office building downtown would one day be flanked by far different structures that would look far more retro in their use of brick and stone. Railroads built and rebuilt many things, but some capital investments lingered on to span greater times than were considered- the old suburban passenger depot that lost it's passengers later became an equipment storage building or a utility shed; those sanding towers are still in use for the diesels long after the last steamer was scrapped, etc. When a 1930's-built steam locomotive with a mixed consist passes an SW-7 working in the yard, two eras cross in terms of technology, but not in terms of purpose. I look at them both as poetry in motion. That the railroad buildings they pass were made of brick and mortar does not detract from the scene- it adds character!

Don't follow all the lemmings over the cliff- do your own thing!

Cedarwoodron

[jacon12]

Heck, why not?  I see big diesels like this..

every day on the tracks near my home.  Unlike many guys my age (67) I love to see and hear the diesels.  Steam was many, many years ago in my youth and to be honest I didn't have the chance to be around them all that much.  So I think it's only natural for me to like diesels.

Having said that I love steam engines also and ride behind one every chance I get, like this one in Tennessee..

Thats why the oldest engine on my layout is this American 4-4-0

and the 'newest' is this D8-40

That even stretches my by line below my signature...  

Hmmmm... those AC6000s sure look good, but so does... well, you get the picture.  Run what you like!  Oh, that's my Class A NW in the picture behind me below.  But I still like those AC6000s!

Jarrell

[AltonFan]

hon30critter

My problem is that I really love the Canadian Pacific script logos which weren't in common use until 1963 (although I have seen a few boxcars dated for the late 50's with the script logo - not sure if that is correct or not). So, what the heck - I am going to run CP script logos with steam as well as early diesels because I like it!

But those cars look as if they could have been used in the steam era. 

I have a Wabash boxcar.   According to my research, the lettering on the car dates from the 1960s.  But the letter still closely resembles earlier Wabash lettering practice.  So it doesn't look out of place with cars of earlier vintage.

Maybe modeling a flavor or atmosphere (a mood, perhaps?) can be done without necessarily being 100% prototypically correct.

[IRONROOSTER]

One of the reasons for picking the Ma&Pa in the early 50's is that they were still using steam built before WWI, truss rod freight cars with archbar trucks, and open platform passenger cars.  They also had 4 diesel switchers.  The connecting roads at each end were B&O and PRR which were a mix of more modern steam and diesels.  So I can use anything from a 50 year time span.

Enjoy

Paul

[gmcrail]

Considering that there are many buildings from the late 19th and early 20 century still standing and functional (at least here in KC there are), I see no reason why you can't have structures as old as you want with modern diesels, though modern buildings (past the mid 1960s) would look a bit odd with a 1930s steamer..  That said, as has been said many times before, "it's your thing, do what you want to do!"

There is a prototype for almost everything, anyway, and rationalizations abound.

 

And a "Merry Christmas!" to all, and to all a Good Night!

[tomikawaTT]

I'm one of those who narrows things down - to a single month, September, 1964.

I also model a rather restricted geographical area.

So, what can I run, between the local class zero (aka national monopoly) and my once-decrepit but now prosperous short line?

Steam, from new in 1873 (Hohenzollern 0-4-0T) to new in 1947 (C58 class 2-6-2).

Catenary motors, from decrepit, just about to be scrapped (ED14 B0+Bo, 1920) to fresh off the erecting floor (EF62 Co-Co).

The diesels are all new and newer, twin-engine diesel-hydraulics - except for a ratty old diesel-mechanical on the shortline that can barely move itself on level track.

Passenger and freight equipment is equally eclectic.

By sheer, dumb luck I had stuck my time-space pin in the exact center of Japan's transition era.  It really is possible to hit the modeling jackpot.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Sailormatlac]

Geared Steam

Hamltnblue:

If they say it's not prototypical for a steamer to pull modern freight cars then show them this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU

 

If I remember correctly, this is one of Crandell's favorite Youtube vids...

Mine too.....

 

Simply GORGEOUS!!! Almost steam punk set in the future...You made my day!!! I think I'm gonna try this with my Consolidation on the layout.... Anyway,  my passenger Hudson have pulled a lot of modern trains in the last years! 

Anyway, as someone pointed out, buildings stay quite the same over large period of time. In fact, building investment cycle is 50 years prior to majo renovation work. Anyway, area near passenger stations are habitually the oldest parts of a town, so even if you're in 2000, most of the flavour will be the same. Only pavements, details, utility poles, cars and things like that change over the time. By the way, on my prototype, you can found structures beside the track that goes back to the time when Canada was still under French rule (the brewery main buidling was from 1660) and I'm sure that the same deal for many old cities in New England.

 

My layout is set in 1957 for many reasons, but can be operated from the 30's to the 70's since the area didn't change much over this period of time. It would be ridiculous to shelf half of my collection... My zebra and multimark dielsels desserve a better treatment! ;)

Enjoy the ride!

Matt 

[hon30critter]

Hey vicious-peanut!

Like many others have said - it's your railroad so run what you want. I am trying to model the mid to late 50's with Canadian Pacific. My problem is that I really love the Canadian Pacific script logos which weren't in common use until 1963 (although I have seen a few boxcars dated for the late 50's with the script logo - not sure if that is correct or not). So, what the heck - I am going to run CP script logos with steam as well as early diesels because I like it! AND, just to annoy the rivet counters I am going to run Hogwarts Express as an excursion! The model railroad police aren't likely to show up at your door so go for it!

Dave

[Aikidomaster]

I run N&W steam locomotives such as the Class A, J, Y6b, K3, W2 along with Southern Railway MS4. I also run Southern FT's and FP's. They are the locomotives that I like in the region that I like.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

vicious-peanut

Hey everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone has locomotives from different eras?  It seems like a bunch of guys are really serious about modeling a period of only 5-10 years.  I am more interested in building my layout with structures that are 1950's ish, and then just running whatever I want.  Steam and diesel.  Probably not at the same time, I will take the steamers off when the big diesels run, but the building might look a bit old with the big diesels. 

 

What do you think?

You've never seen Leesville. The structures range from the mid 1800's to the present and the big locos look right at home when they're going through town. The courthouse was built in 1910 and doesn't look out of place with modern power crossing behind it. Nothing wrong with having modern power in a setting with 50'ish structures as long as the figures, vehicles and whatever details reflect the modern age. You can change a scene to reflect an entirely different era simply by changing these details. That's what I do with mine and, yes, I run just about whatever I like. From GP7's and F units to GP50's and SD40-2's. I don't run anything bigger and more modern because it doesn't play nice with 18" radius HO curves. The biggest steamer I run is a Mehano 2-10-2 that pulls a tourist train made up of steam era heavyweight passenger cars and because it's a tourist train I can run it in a modern setting without a problem. It's no different than the UP 844 running today.

[DavidBriel]

The SOUTHERN RAILWAY ended steam on JUNE 17, 1953 in regular freght service. SOUTHERN and successor NORFOLK SOUTHERN ran steam and diesel excursions from 1966 to 1994. Locomotives used along with others on these excursions were Southern Mikado 2-8-2 #4501, Southern FP-7 #6133 and the NS Southern painted GP59 #4610. I have HO models of all three of these locomotives. They all look good pulling freight, passenger or sometimes non-prototypical mixed trains.

[cowman]

It's your layout, if you want to pull wooden cars with modern locos or double stacks with steam, go for it.  If you like a building kit, build it, use it.

As the transition era progressed, diesels did more and more of the mainline work, steam was put on branchlines and used as helpers.  So they go together even in the same train.

I borrowed a video that showed UP's steam excursion train pushing on a freight train that had stalled on a hill.  The train had multiple huge modern locos, but the old steamer provided the needed boost to get it over the hump, even while its excursion cars tagged along.

Have fun,

[twhite]

You're free and clear running diesel and steam together:  Southern Pacific ran diesel and steam together for a number of years.  Frankly, SP wasn't the 'fastest' road in the west to dieselize, and they wanted to get as much running time out of their steamers as possible during the transition. 

So it wasn't unusual to see SP Cab-forwards hauling a train over Donner Pass with diesel helpers at first, and even after SP committed itself to diesel, it wasn't unusual to see diesels hauling a train with steam helpers. 

As far as 6-axles,  SP was quick to dieselize it's difficult Siskiyou Line between Oregon and California with 6-axle SD's, but still kept 2-10-2's as helpers for their trains between Ashland OR and Black Butte CA, over the 3+% grades of Siskiyou Summit. 

Even Rio Grande, after almost completely dieselizing, kept some of their huge L-131 2-8-8-2's in service until 1956 as helpers over Tennessee Pass. 

So from the mid-forties to the late 'fifties, it was not uncommon to see both steam and diesel working in tandem to get the freight going.  It was pretty interesting to watch.

Tom