One Manufacture needs to step up to the plate & develope a "nostolgia series"

[CNJ831]

orsonroy posts, in part -
>The point is there has NEVER been cheap, accurate, and decently performing
> steam out there, and there never will be.

To which I will agree with you 100%. However, the original poster did ask/wish for "affordable" examples of historic/nostalgia steam locomotives and my point was that the terms affordable, quality, steam, and RR-specific are pretty much at odds with one another. The outcome is that we can NEVER hope to see such models offered, limited runs or not.

Like yourself, I have recently purchased a BLI Mikado for under $200 and am extremely pleased with it. However, we don't see BLI rushing to follow it up with a wide selection of similarly priced engines. The remainder of their line is pretty much in the $300-$500 (list) range and rising. For the great majority of hobbyists these figures are far from "affordable" and even the Mike is a USRA and not a RR-specific engine.

On another board I frequent, which deals with the New Haven, it has been repeatedly stated by persons who are dealing directly with and assisting the manufacturers in an effort to persuade them to produce NH-specific engines (both steam and diesel) that unless a minimum of about five significant railroads with very similar engines (i.e. alternate marketable RRs) can be demonstrated, such projects simply won't be considered. Yes, there is a ready market for any of the giant RR-specific engines but the same is definitely not true with regard to smaller, every day-sized engines, at least in the eyes of the manufacturers.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

well let's see what we have operating today.................

844
3985
4449
261
819
3751
1225
2816
700
765
and probably more...........

non operating............
611
1218
sou 2-8-2 can never remember the number

produced........
844
3985
611
3751
1218
4449
p2k has made a pere marquette berkshire but it's not 1225

there's still plenty of steamers left to do, and who knows how many diesels[?]

[Anonymous]

I'd like to see this as well. How about Athearn making a pair of F7As RTR in Metra paint (as now preserved at the IRM)? I know the Athearn F7 is an earlier phase than these two, but it would still look good with a set of Walthers Bilevels.

I'm working on a model of the IRM's 118C (Milwaukee Road FP7, I have the basic loco from E R Models, need number decals and a few detail parts to complete it). It occurs to me that manufacturers could do well by offering their locos with the running numbers of preserved examples - the new Atlas CB&Q SD24 could have been offered as #504, currently being rebuilt to original condition at the IRM.

[railman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cjm89

how about CB&Q's 4960, now owned by the Grand Canyon Railway?? If BLI did that one I'd be crazy not to buy it...

I wouldn't mind seeing a Milw. engine produced, right now all of the major steam mfg.er's are going by the rule, "We can only and will only make it if the prototype either ran east of the Appalachians, or West of the Rockies"; i.e. never is a Midwestern engine produced, P2K's NKP Berkshire and the upcoming Wabash L1 being the only exceptions I can think of.

Amen, Amen. Considering everything goes through the midwest, why it's in a steam black hole is beyond me...

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

I think a series of models of historic locomotives that are still running is a great idea. Just think a affordable Milwaukee Road 261 or Cp Hudson. I think collectors & operators would enjoy them. If marketed right I think they would be highly sucessfull

A good quality plastic model of CPR's 2816 Hudson (the Empress) would likely sell well in both Canada and the US, considering how well the recent tour of the prototype was received in both countries. It would be nice to see other CPR or CNR loco's with vestibule (enclosed) cabs in quality plastic. Those available in brass are nice but too expensive for most of us. But I'm probably dreaming.
[:)]

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

orsonroy - BZZZZTT! Wrong!

The original poster was addressing "affordable" but accurate historic locomotives.

Affordability and accuracy are all relative. $90 for a P2K 0-6-0, $125 for a P2K 0-8-0, $65 for a Rivarossi 2-8-4, and $75 for a IHC 4-8-2 (all prices I've paid for steam over the past 2-3 years) isn't a lot of money (in this hobby) and it'll get you RELATIVELY accurate and good running engines (actually, the P2K engines are some of the best ever made in any medium). I'll agree that many of the BLI, P2K and Trix engines are getting up there in prices, but they're still cheaper than new brass, and they usually run better. I just paid $155 for a second BLI USRA heavy mike, and I consider that to be the single best price out there for a quality USRA road engine. Heck, I'm paying on average $175 for Oriental Powerhouse Mikes.

The point is that there's NEVER been cheap, accurate, and decently performing steam out there, and there never will be. Good steam is ALWAYS an investment, either in time or money. When Rivarossi came out with their NKP Berkshires in the late 1960s, they cost $65, in an age when a new car sold for $1200. You get what you pay for, and the new generation of plastic steam is actually being offered for a VERY fair price, considering what you end up with.

[Jetrock]

And then there's that lost art, scratchbuilding...one would think that with today's improved scratchbuilding supples it would be easier to scratchbuild or kitbash road-specific prototypes.

I mean, you can wish all you want for something that will probably never happen, or you can tighten your belt and go DO it!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cisco1

Let's expand this to include models of preserved steam (operating and static) and offer more painted but unlettered models. Would love to get hold of a couple of 4-6-4s close to CB&Qs S4a and at least three or four 4-8-4s (CB&Q and RI). Gotta be a market for 4-8-4s with similar mechanisms fitted with three or four different boiler/cab combinations!
The Qs' steam excursion locos have only been available in brass and in very limited numbers. Chris

What a nice though, 4-8-4s in CB&Q and CRI&P, my 2 favorite roads and some of my favorite steamers... The S-4As would be nice to see in plastic too...[:D][:p]

[CNJ831]

orsonroy - BZZZZTT! Wrong!

The original poster was addressing "affordable" but accurate historic locomotives.

Down through the years the relatively inexpensive steamers produced by Athearn, MDC, Bachmann, and IHC (still) mostly suffered significant shortcomings in accuracy, were "based" on major road prototypes, and few ran well or for very long. Even some of the latest, mainly of USRA design anyway, have had poor reviews. The more accurate 'rossi, Marklin, and BLI products have always been , and currently are, considered high end, expensive models in the minds of most hobbyists, with price tags in the $250-$750 range.

Unless demand exceeds a certain threshold (perhaps 1000 units?) no manufacturer is going to take a chance on a prototype from a less well known railroad with no crossover potential. If the model is not assured to be a sellout, it won't be made. Perhaps in the future BLI just might take a one-time-only shot at running something like Milwaukee's #261 but be assured the price tag will be in the $500+ range. Virtually custom, prototypically accurate, RR-specific locomotives command big money...always have, always will. They aren't going to be made affordable by any one of today's manufacturers.

Incidentally, the only attempt by a manufacturer at low priced RR-specific "nostalgia" engines I can recall was nearly 50 years ago by Aristo-Craft Models. These turned out to be dogs because too many corners were cut to keep the price down.

CNJ831

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831
There will never be low priced, excellent running and highly detailed, single road-specific locomotives offered in plastic (outside perhaps NYC, PRR, SP or ATSF). BLI's offerings are going to be about as close as you can come and, logically, they will mainly involve locomotives with a broad appeal and likely sales among hobbyists. If you want obscure, RR-specific models, Brass is likely to remain the only choice and they are affordable for very few of us.

CNJ831

BZZZZZTT! Wrong! Thanks for playing.

Except for the USRA engine that have been made in plastic, EVERY other plastic steam engine on the market is a railroad-specific engine. That includes railroad-specific engines produced by Life Like, Bachmann, Rivarossi, Marklin, old Athearn, IHC, BLI, and a few manufacturers I can't think of.

Steam by it's very nature is a road-specific modelling effort, since besides the few offerings by the USRA, Harriman cartel, and a few stock Baldwin and Alco catalog engines (that really never sold well), railroads tended to design their own engines to suit their own tastes and needs.

As for the only road-specific engines being for the NYC, PRR, SP or ATSF, that's not true either. The WORST class one road to model in steam is the NYC. The next in line is the Santa Fe. Three of the easiest roads to model in HO plastic are the UP, N&W and NKP, with virtually every important engine class being represented.

The idea that a model manufacturer can't turn a profit with a road-specific engine might have been true 20 years ago, but not any more. Production runs are smaller, molding technology is better, and profit margins are up. Modelers are demanding more proto-accurate products, and the manufacturers have complied. BLI is on the cutting edge of new buying patterns by producing road specific engines with DC/DCC sound, for relatively little money (relatively....). They've proven that limited runs of plastic road-specific engines do sell, and sell very well. Life Like has caught on, and is scrambling to catch up, while everyone else watches (in the steam arena, anyway).

[CNJ831]

It is necessary to face the fact that many of the "historic" locomotives were very RR company specific. And few current tourist RR steam locomotives would not fit the modeling schemes of most hobbyists. The idea of producing a given ALCO, Baldwin, or other chassis with alternative RR-specific boilers and tenders would be a very expensive, complex project and would still likely revolve around some widely used basic locomotive design.

There will never be low priced, excellent running and highly detailed, single road-specific locomotives offered in plastic (outside perhaps NYC, PRR, SP or ATSF). BLI's offerings are going to be about as close as you can come and, logically, they will mainly involve locomotives with a broad appeal and likely sales among hobbyists. If you want obscure, RR-specific models, Brass is likely to remain the only choice and they are affordable for very few of us.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

I think a series of models of historic locomotives that are still running is a great idea. Just think a affordable Milwaukee Road 261 or Cp Hudson. I think collectors & operators would enjoy them. If marketed right I think they would be highly sucessfull

I've suggested the #261 to BLI, as she is one of the ALCo "standard" 4-8-4's of her era. With a little tweaking and different tenders, the same engine was also built for the RI and the D&H.

I agree with you about offering engines still on the rails. I have taken my son to ride or see 6 live steam locos in the northeast the past year - only one, the Chinese NYS&W 2-8-2 - is available in HO.

Rob

[cisco1]

Let's expand this to include models of preserved steam (operating and static) and offer more painted but unlettered models. Would love to get hold of a couple of 4-6-4s close to CB&Qs S4a and at least three or four 4-8-4s (CB&Q and RI). Gotta be a market for 4-8-4s with similar mechanisms fitted with three or four different boiler/cab combinations!
The Qs' steam excursion locos have only been available in brass and in very limited numbers. Chris

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DMIR230

QUOTE: Originally posted by nfmisso

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

I think a series of models of historic locomotives that are still running is a great idea. Just think a affordable Milwaukee Road 261 or Cp Hudson. I think collectors & operators would enjoy them. If marketed right I think they would be highly sucessfull

Your suggested business model is already being done by Broadway Limited Imports

Is BLI making a Milwaukee Road S3? or a CP Hudson? I must have missed that annoucement.

Fer cryin' out loud, they've only been in business for a few years. Give 'em some time.

Andre

[Anonymous]

how about CB&Q's 4960, now owned by the Grand Canyon Railway?? If BLI did that one I'd be crazy not to buy it...

I wouldn't mind seeing a Milw. engine produced, right now all of the major steam mfg.er's are going by the rule, "We can only and will only make it if the prototype either ran east of the Appalachians, or West of the Rockies"; i.e. never is a Midwestern engine produced, P2K's NKP Berkshire and the upcoming Wabash L1 being the only exceptions I can think of.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nfmisso

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

I think a series of models of historic locomotives that are still running is a great idea. Just think a affordable Milwaukee Road 261 or Cp Hudson. I think collectors & operators would enjoy them. If marketed right I think they would be highly sucessfull

Your suggested business model is already being done by Broadway Limited Imports

Is BLI making a Milwaukee Road S3? or a CP Hudson? I must have missed that annoucement.

[nfmisso]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bigblow69

I think a series of models of historic locomotives that are still running is a great idea. Just think a affordable Milwaukee Road 261 or Cp Hudson. I think collectors & operators would enjoy them. If marketed right I think they would be highly sucessfull

Your suggested business model is already being done by Broadway Limited Imports

[cacole]

Model Die Casting's Roundhouse products have always been close to what could be considered a nostalgia line, since they specialized in old-time locomotives and rolling stock, as well as unique road names.

Now that Horizon Hobbies has purchased MDC, it will be interesting to see if they continue with what MDC has produced in the past or try to change the product line so they can make more profit off of the Roundhouse brand name.

[Jacktal]

A full line of historic locomotives available to modelers would be a great thing indeed...to the modelers.However,the manufacturers worry about themselves,not the modelers.They very well know that if they want to market a good quality product,they have to rise the price accordingly,making it affordable to a much more limited number of buyers.On the other hand,if they make trade-offs in quality to keep the prices down,modellers won't want their products because they're poor runners.The rule is simple here...they offer what we're willing to pay for and to protect themselves against bargain hunters,they created the "limited runs" policy.

Every now and then,a manufacturer will market a unique model,but in limited number,and see how the market will react.If it hardly sells,that's the end of it,and if it does sell,the way it does will dictate if and when there will be a second run.When a highly desired model gets produced,if ever,one has to be a quick gun to get it and be willing to pay the price without fuss.

[the-big-blow]

I think a series of models of historic locomotives that are still running is a great idea. Just think a affordable Milwaukee Road 261 or Cp Hudson. I think collectors & operators would enjoy them. If marketed right I think they would be highly sucessfull