These cars look NICE, thank you for posting the photos.
It'd be nice if MTH modeled interiors in the appropriate colors like BLI, though MTH's lighting looks more subdued, I.E prototypical.
All the same, if MTH's Powhatan Arrow is this good, N&W fans are in for a treat. I have a BLI J and two Walthers B60s awaiting the rest of their passenger train.
Alvie
Since my earlier posts, I've done a few more things with my MTH set. Firstly, my cars had late lettering "Southern Pacific" but early-version skirts. I wanted early, so I re-decaled all lettering to "Southern Pacific Lines"
I did final adjustments on car spacing with the KD 47 couplers in the "46 inch" position. A few cars wanted to derail on my 35 inch radii, and I discovered the reason was not as much diaphragm collision as it was that the endplates were catching on each other. There may be some flash on the bellows projecting beyond the endplates which keeps the plates from sliding smoothly past each other as the track curvature changes. Sanding fixed this.
Then I got in two pairs of chair cars and ran into another problem. These car pairs have doors at opposite ends, causing one door to be adjacent to the door of the next car. Stirrups at the door ends project beyond the car body, and in this case, they can snag on each other on curves. I moved some stirrups slightly inboard to fix this.
While the MTH interior lights are not as bright as the BLI's, they still shine thru the car bodies when seen in a darkened room. They also seem to me generally too bright in the dark. I thought about disassembling the car, chipping out the glued windows, painting the entire interior with something opaque, then replacing the interior color and windows. Instead, I found a land on the main light PC board connecting a 22 ohm resistor to the two LED's and hold capacitor. I cut it and experimented with jumpering resistors to lower the lights to a good "darkness" level with no shinethru, deciding on 470 ohms. Lastly, I installed a magnetic latching reed switch across the 470 ohm in each car at the left side roofline, so I can "dim" the lights with an external magnet the same way Rapido car lights are turned on/off. A side benefit is that the "dimmed" car pulls only 12 ma. instead of 23 ma. current. These switches are cheap, and can be had from Demar Electronics. You could opt to turn the lights off instead by leaving out the resistor. All MTH HO cars should have the same light boards, but the same general approach could be used in BLI's.
Lastly, I put in a Digitrax DZ-125 micro decoder in the Obs car to turn on the tail-light only during backing, the early modality. Now very satisfied with the consist.
Hal
For those who want a comprehensive review of these cars, you should definately read the Winter 2011 Number 106 S.P. Trainline magazine (the official publication of the Southern Pacific Historical and Technical Society). It's extremely good for all of the rivet counters out there. The article compares BLI, MTH and the Athearn cars. I would reprint the article but i don't have permission to do so. Overall the author says MTH has the most "SP feel" to them but BLI fans will definitely disagree. None of the 3 are perfect. It's a "give some, take some" depending on you prefer.
The author's brief summary:
Athearn: their cars best represent the cars between 1950 and 1960, the trucks are inaccurate for anything earlier than 1950; the chairs are inaccurate if you use the two-tone gray scheme for cars used in Cascade service. Crisp and well-detailed, nicely finished, remarkably close attention to SP practices.
BLI: presents professionally and construction quality is good, colors are slightly brighter than they should be, some details may make them challenging to operated on a layout or modify, collectors will prefer them.
MTH: is the most problematic of the 3. The cars are free rolling, has the highest level of detail of the three, the colors are correct and diaphragms work the best. BUT paint quality and assembly issues compromise the high points, and the window shades colors are incorrect. Like BLI, the construction method makes it challenging to modify the cars.
Quick comparision:
Best Corregation/Fluted sides: BLI and Athearns; worst MTH (too rounded)
Best Letterboard: BLI; worst Athearn and MTH (both too tall)
Best Roof: All incorrect, namely theoversized welding bead lines; BLI is the least oversized and is the best of the worst.
Best Paint: MTH (1st), Athearn (2nd), BLI 3rd (3rd - brighter than should be)
Best Silver Striping: Athearns two-gray is the thinnest and most accurate, while Daylight schemes are a mixed bag. All 3 manufacturers' silver striping is too wide but author acknowledges that the prototype's strip is extremely thin.
Best Window: (Mixed bag) Athearn and MTH are flush but they are too think; BLI's windows are not flush; BLI and MTH have correct aluminum edging, Athearn does not, MTH's aluminum painting is irregular.
Best Window Shades: BLI; Worst: MTH (wrong color); Athearn has none (which technically is okay)
Best Diaphragms: MTH; Worst: BLI (too rigid); Athearn's narrow diaphragms are correct for mid-late 1950s.
Best End Sheet: Diagonal structual rivets on the ends of the cars are only appropriate for the 1937 cars, not the 1941 cars. Athearn good.
Best End Window: BLI and MTH; Worst: Athearn (undersized for 1937 cars)
Best Uncoupling Lever: MTH; Worst: BLI; Athearn has none.
Best Handrails/Ladders: MTH; Worst: Athearn and BLI (Oversized)
Best Underside: 1st MTH (although still has some inaccurracies); 2nd BLI positions the equipment the correctly but they hang too low; 3rd Athearn are recessed too much from the sides
Best Trucks: Mixed bag and each manufacturer made a different class of truck; all are accurate. (1st) BLI models the 1939 class 4-TC-6 truck, best detailed and looking although the bloster anchor is oversized, (2nd) MTH modeled the 1941 class 4-TC-7 truck models the rarely seen triple bolster but the brake cyclinders were crooked; (3rd) Athearn's 1937 class 4-TC-4 truck has accurately applied detrails but the truck seems visually thin.
Best Interior Details: Athearn
Best Interior Paint: Athearn and MTH although they are still slighly more vivid than they should be.
(This poster is personally going with the BLI cars.)
I just recently got the MTH 8 car set plus one additional car as well, and I second all the points that Hal and Tom made. They are some beautiful cars.
I also got the Walthers P2K E7 AB set with DCC & Sound. And the entire train looks and performs good. I have 24" min radius curves. I replaced the couplers with Kadee #47s.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Hal:
I just picked up the 8-car MTH set plus the extra articulated coach, and it makes for a very handsome train--especially those full-length diaphraghms.
One thing--MTH says that as produced, the cars are geared to a 22" radius, but close-coupling them (the coupler pockets are adjustable), will result in a train that needs a 46" minimum radius. I question that, as I've close-coupled the articulated cars (diner, coach) and they make it through my 34" minimum radius just fine. I'm thinking of adjusting only ONE coupler at each end of the non-articulated cars to bring the cars closer, and see if that works on my 34" radius. But they run very smoothly.
Oh, my set has metal couplers, not plastic. So far they've been trouble-free.
As to the lighting, since this is a 'Daylight' train (the night equivalent was SP's "Coast Starlight") that ran between LA and San Francisco, the dimmer MTH lighting looks far more realistic than the BLI which is way too bright for me. True, the lettering on the BLI is 'livelier' than the MTH, but the Daylights that I remember from my youth had rather subdued silver lettering against that bright red and orange.
All in all, I'm very happy with the MTH set--now to see how restrictive the radius gets with only one end of each car re-set for close coupling. I can tell you that my Balboa GS-4 is extremely happy with her new train, she's been waiting for a Daylight set for almost 25 years, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Flashwave Ouch, yeah, that's a bummer on the light leak. Still, I like the painted doilies and I can actually SEE the lettering on the side when you took the angle shots of the BLI car. So like you, if it's still there for the spec. ed. car, I'll crack it open and drop in a few resisitors.
Ouch, yeah, that's a bummer on the light leak. Still, I like the painted doilies and I can actually SEE the lettering on the side when you took the angle shots of the BLI car. So like you, if it's still there for the spec. ed. car, I'll crack it open and drop in a few resisitors.
The "doily" is acutally called a antimacassar, so called because men used to groom their hair with macassar oil, which stained the backs of cloth chairs/furniture.
Carl in Florida - - - - - - - - - - We need an HO Amtrak SDP40F and GE U36B oh wait- We GOT THEM!
-Morgan
So sorry, I guess the web page wouldn't load at work. Thanks.
Arkale, the eight pix I posted at 3:38 am today seem OK here.
I posted pix of the other cars on thread 179568.aspx
None of the picture are working in the previous post. Please fix!!!
Very happy to see that we can have a good third party comparison. I am very interesting in purchasing a set of the daylights, but I want to know which is the better buy. After all, the whole set is a pretty big purchase.
Thanks again.
I have to admit, I like the MTH ones a lot better upon seeing these pictures.
Some pictures that show how the overly bright lights in the BLI SP Observation car leak not only around the tailsign, but thru the car sides. The MTH car has a little leakage around the sign only. The BLI paint is slightly brighter, and lettering more so. But the MTH has detailed paint and decals in car ends. BLI grabs and antennas look too thick.
Was told yesterday that no BLI working diaphragms are available yet. Hmm............
Would be great if you post some pictures for comparison...
Ok about the flexi diaphragms being supplied later.
I'll be taking the BLI apart to see if I can blacken the areas around the drumhead. The leakage on mine is pretty bad, and spoils the general appearance.
I noticed another plus on the BLI - the lettering stands out better. It's kinda faint on the MTH.
I said the MTH's have only one interior color, but it turns out this is true only of the observation car - the others have floors a different color from chairs. The furnishings are not as primitive as I first thought; maybe not as realistic as the BLI, however.
Someone commented that the MTH markers aren't lit. Not so - they just aren't very bright.
My BLI coupler is set for contact of the diaphragms, but is hanging down way too low right now. Don't know yet if the position of the draft box can be adjusted. Jimrombanderson pointed out that the coupler is mounted so it extends on curves.
Didn't think the BLI had a capacitor, but I stand corrected. Large enough to prevent flicker, but if I lift the car, the lights go out in a fraction of a second. The MTH lights stay on for about 90 seconds, which seems like massive overkill.
I still see the two cars as about even on points, and want to see BLI's diaphragms before forming a preference.
Thank you, for this much more objective post. That out of the way,
What I read goes as follows. For whatever reason, BLI plans to do soft diaghrams on one end of a car, and the hard end on the other. I didn't catch why, but it's on their forum. Since the Obs car only has one diaghram on it, it just ended up with the hard one. They MIGHT release an extra soft 'pragm in another carset, one poster eccomended either the Diner or Articulated Coach-bag. I'll EDIT with the link to their thread.
How's the BLI coupler setting? Or rather, hows the gap between them? If it's no worse than everything else we have, then the issue is moot. Is the coupler gear adjustable? Or does one need to play with coupler shank?
Could we have a bit more info about the diaphragms on the future cars? Is it set up so that "each car has the flexible diaphragm for the one behind it"? The solid diaphragm on the obs is about the most-mentioned thing at every other site that's commenting/reviewing about them, as the flexi-diaphragms on the MTH ones are already "out in the wild" to see.
Matt WilliamsonWe'll include an additional flexible diaphram with a future car. You can use that to replace the diaphram currently on the Observation Car. I know I'm biased here, but I thought our cars had a much better overall look to them than the MTH cars. I'm a little surprised by some of the feedback. We're looking forward to all your comments so we can make improvements on future runs.
http://www.broadway-limited2.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2066&start=60
Now that I have them side by side, a few comments:
The cars both have good paint jobs and look identical until you get up close. The shades are a good match, but the BLI paint is slightly brighter. Pictures of the back views of both have been posted earlier.
BLI claims to have full diaphragms that are designed so there are no gaps on straights or curves. But the diaphragm on this BLI is rigid, wheras the MTH is pretty flexible and will not derail the car when compressed.
The BLI interior has detailed, two-tone painted chairs, including head doillies. Lamps on some tables. But also has two rather large wires running down the aisle. The MTH interior is all one color, with the kind of unrealistic seats used in IHC and Walthers cars.
The BLI lighting is much brighter, but doesn't have capacitive hold. The BLI rear tailsign cannot be read if not powered, and leaves much to be desired when powered. Light leaks abundantly around it. The MTH sign is perfectly readable dark, and clean looking powered. The BLI beacon is bright steady white. The MTH is a softer light green and flashes. BLI's marker lights look better.
Other details: the car end is much more detailed on the MTH, and includes window rim, signs, etc. The BLI is rather plain, and would not look good in pictures unless further detail-painted. The BLI trucks are more detailed, while the MTH trucks are much smoother out of the box. Undercarriages have about the same amount of detail. BLI grabs are too thick. So are the antenna and supports. But the MTH antenna is untempered wire and doesn't want to stay straight. BLI's windowshades are silver, MTH's pale yellow. Both cars have cut levers. MTH also has steam pipe couplers.
The MTH comes with cheap plastic couplers and instructions for setting the pockets for 22 inch radius (pretty big gaps between cars) or greater than 46 inch radius (diaphragms touching). I swapped them for Kadee 47's with Kadee draft boxes, easy to do, and, with some customizing, have the gaps down to 1/16th inch, with operation OK at 28 inch radii. The BLI has metal couplers, but the front one is set too low.
So you pays your money ($499 list, 8-car MTH, $570 list for the same BLI cars) and you takes your choice. Which car looks better depends on where you look. Both have room for improvement.
My chief question: what does BLI have for diaphragms on the other cars? Have they got flexible ones only between the articulated sets? If so, the MTH set will definitely win the glamour award when properly adjusted, since the whole train looks continuous.