yougottawanta Wayne, I think you do not understand in part my message and that we agree in whole or part. First let me clear up one item. I do agree that a vapor barrier is important on the exterior wall of the house against the exterior side of the sheathing. A vapor berrier is necassary and code required on insulation on the exterior side of the insulation . However. Plastic should never be used as a vapor barrier on the interior side of the wall or the exterior side. As I stated earlier it will lead to rot and mold.
Wayne, I think you do not understand in part my message and that we agree in whole or part. First let me clear up one item. I do agree that a vapor barrier is important on the exterior wall of the house against the exterior side of the sheathing. A vapor berrier is necassary and code required on insulation on the exterior side of the insulation . However. Plastic should never be used as a vapor barrier on the interior side of the wall or the exterior side. As I stated earlier it will lead to rot and mold.
I have never heard anyone but you claim that a vapor barrier should never be used on the inside of exterior walls. Every person or article I have ever heard or read says that you should ALWAYS use a vapor barrier on the heated side of an insulated exterior wall or ceiling.
If you doubt that advise, find a heated building with single glazed windows in the winter. The INSIDE of the glass will get so wet that you can write your name in the moisture. The cold side will remain bone dry. Find a house with double glazed windows where the seal on the windows has failed. The interior between the pieces of glass fills with moisture.
Warm air holds more moisture than cold air. When the warm air hits the cold glass the moisture is deposited on the glass. When warm air rises into the colder air above and cools, the moisture comes out of the air in the form of clouds.
Unless you live and work in the tropics, where the outside is always the heated side, your advise is in error.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Actually, I think our building codes disagree, and it could be because of climate conditions. Year-round temperatures here in southern Ontario (about as far south as you can get in Canada) vary from the high 90s in the summer to probably -30 in the winter, although I haven't seen that latter one for several years. These are Fahrenheit degrees, by the way. The rest of the country uses Celcius (what I always knew as Centigrade, but you know how whacky governments can be.) Summer humidity is often quite high.
The building code here specifies a continuous vapour barrier on the inside face of the framing of exterior walls and ceilings of all heated spaces. This is generally polyfilm plastic sheeting, although a sealed application of extruded styrofoam sheets or sprayed-in-place foam is also acceptable. This includes sealing around all plumbing and electrical fittings which open into the heated space. Most builders use a house-wrap product, such as Tyvek, on the exterior, applied over the rough sheathing, over which is applied the finished siding or brick veneer. Also, there are requirements for venting uninsulated attic spaces, usually a percentage of the attic's square footage. This latter requirement is an important part of the insulation/vapour barrier package.
The separate interior vapour barrier requirements date back to about the mid-'60s, I think. Houses built in the '50s and earlier didn't use one, although in those days, most interior walls were painted with oil-based paints, which were considered adequate for such purposes.
My house is over 20 years old, and built with mostly a poly film interior vapour barrier, although I did use 2" extruded foam on the underside of some rafters which form a ceiling in part of the house. I did most of the construction work myself, so I'm quite familiar with how it was put together. My heating and cooling costs are, I'm told, very reasonable for a house of this size, and there is absolutely no evidence of mould or rot anywhere, including in walls that have been opened to perform "renovations" for the person who runs this circus.
I have worked on renovations in some older houses (pre-1960s), and in some cases found mould damage and/or rot, although most such incidences seemed more related to leaks than mere vapour incursion. I did see one place that had an exterior vapour barrier and none on the interior and it was in rough shape - that particular area appeared to be a fairly-recent addition, probably done by an amateur. The older part of the house was in better shape.
Generally, the building code for your area is a good guide to follow, although not always infallible. Some years back, the provincial government was giving grants to people who upgraded their insulation (usually older houses with no insulation) by having urethane foam sprayed into the wall cavities. Some years later, it was discovered that this material continues to emit dangerous levels of formaldehyde for years after the initial application. Many spent large sums of money to have the material removed, while others opted for whole-house air exchange systems, and to this day, if you sell such a house, you are required to report the presence of such insulation.
Wayne
TrainsRMe1Thanks for the info, I will insulate the ENTIRE garage, and use sheetrock for the cieling, as for the garage door, the one I have on it now is old used and beaten up,so I think for looks outside I will get a better looking door, BUT I will build a false wall for the inside, Thanks again for all the help I got with this subject. Trainsrme1 PS, If anybody has any more ideas PLEASE feel free to let me know.
One thing, seriously, that you probably want to consider before closing up all the walls and ceiling, is do you have all your plumbing, electrical, data, etc. pipes and wires run first? Alternately you could set up a few wiring channels and put access covers on them, so you can open them back up later to easily access the wiring.
My basement was already finished before I started my layout (and subsequently un-finished a portion of it). It was very hard to add wiring-- like for tv cable, computer network cabling, etc. just for normal use. Now that the trains are there, I'm wiring in additional circuits to the main panel, etc. to support that, as well as computer network cabling so that the computers on the layout are tied into the main house network. You might also want to run speaker wires, if you want to have music or sound at any point. Etc. Its easier and cheaper to think of whatever you might possibly want in the future and lay it in now, even if you don't make use of it now.
As far as plumbing goes. Don't know if you want a bathroom or a clean-up sink or anything like that, but now would be the time.
John
Allegheny2-6-6-6 Without question if you can afford it I would insulate the outside with extruded foam you know the stuff model railroaders use for scenery
Yes, apparently there are some folks in the construction industry that have taken to using the stuff for insulating houses. Who knew? Turns out the stuff has a pretty good "R" value. And the fact that it comes in 2x8 and 4x8 foot sheets makes it really convenient for them to cart around. I think if the trend continues, there is definitely a chance that it could break-over into a new market that's potentially even larger than the Model Railroad market, which might lead to lowered costs and better availability. In fact, I saw a blip on the news about it recently where they showed this one contractor guy putting it up in a house, and he didn't even bother to paint it or texture it, or put ground foam on it or trees or anything. He just stuck it in there and left it pink. Who in their right mind would want *pink* foam insulation *inside* their walls? The whole concept is darn-near preposterous. And yet, there it is. And it seems to be an up-and-coming thing.
(Shrug)
yougottawantaHowever there are some that will advise you to install plastic on the interior walls.Do not do this it is a practice that we in the construction industry have discovered has a very negative impact on a house, I will explain. First , insulation does not insulate. It slows down the migration of heated/cooled air thru the exterior wall. Which reduces the need to heat the air to make you feel warm. Migration of air thru the wall is important. It keeps condensation down as the air flows thru the wall (very slowly) if you install plastic it in essence blocks the migration.
However there are some that will advise you to install plastic on the interior walls.Do not do this it is a practice that we in the construction industry have discovered has a very negative impact on a house, I will explain. First , insulation does not insulate. It slows down the migration of heated/cooled air thru the exterior wall. Which reduces the need to heat the air to make you feel warm. Migration of air thru the wall is important. It keeps condensation down as the air flows thru the wall (very slowly) if you install plastic it in essence blocks the migration.
Which is exactly what it's supposed to do.
yougottawantaWhen the cool air meets the hot air at the plastic it causes condensation.
When the cool air meets the hot air at the plastic it causes condensation.
If it does, the condensation occurs only on the heated side of the plastic, as cold air, depending on its temperature, doesn't hold moisture - it's already condensed out. The purpose of the vapour barrier is to prevent the warm, moisture-laden air from mixing, within the layer of insulation, with the cold, dry air. This would cause the moisture to condense, ruining the insulation.
yougottawanta Which causes rot and worse mold.
Which causes rot and worse mold.
If you eliminate the vapour barrier, yes, your insulation will get wet, mould will grow in it and on the wood framing, and the insulation will lose its insulating value. Your conditions in the south may produce different results, but here in the Great White North, no vapour barrier means insulation filled with ice and rotting walls, interior and exterior, not to mention greatly-elevated heating costs. This is based on over 50 years of practical applications.
If I go up in my attic when the outside temperature is 30 below, the temperature inside the attic will also be 30 below. If I stick my hand down through the 16"-20" of insulation and touch the top surface of the plastic vapour barrier, it will be both dry and warm, with no moisture or mould in evidence, either on the cold or the warm side of the plastic.
As mentioned by others, it's good practice, where practical, to add a "breathable" wrap, such as Tyvek, on the exterior walls, over the sheathing but beneath the exterior siding or other finish. This allows any moisture within the insulation to dissipate, while preventing water incursion. Attic areas should also be well-ventilated above the insulation.
And do not forget a vapor barrier.......
Johnboy out.......................for now
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
You mentioned that you are going to replace the overhead door. I might suggest that you use an insulated door. I have a two car garage that is fully insulated and has two single bay, insulated overhead doors. Only one bay is where the car is parked, the other houses the boat. In the wintertime, the warm engine of the car will keep the interior of the garage on average about 50 degrees. Sometimes it gets colder. There is no heat source in this area at all. Just a thought.
Will
I would insulate it. If nothing else, it will make it into a more civilized space. But it will also help even out the temperature swings, especially if you include some sort of ability to heat & cool.
Like every one here I agree. Insulate, keep your receipts you may also get a tax brake. However there are some that will advise you to install plastic on the interior walls.Do not do this it is a practice that we in the construction industry have discovered has a very negative impact on a house, I will explain. First , insulation does not insulate. It slows down the migration of heated/cooled air thru the exterior wall. Which reduces the need to heat the air to make you feel warm. Migration of air thru the wall is important. It keeps condensation down as the air flows thru the wall (very slowly) if you install plastic it in essence blocks the migration. When the cool air meets the hot air at the plastic it causes condensation. Which causes rot and worse mold. Mold can have really negative impacts on your health. So those idiots on the Home improvment channels that show plastic being installed around the house should be sued.We learned that lesson twenty five years ago.The attic , remember. If you insulate you cannot walk on it or store boxes on the insulation. Why? First you will fall thru the ceiling , second if you do not fall you will compress the insulation and it will loose its ability to trap or slow the migration of air thru the insulation.Lastly one item to think about. Garages floors are sloped so that liquids (water,gas etc..) can flow out of the garage. You may want to pour a thin layer on top of the floor to "level" it. That is another discussion.Have any questions feel free to contact me.
If it gets cold in the winter and you still plan to model in the winter out there. Which our hobby is primarily a winter hobby anyways. Then your going to want to insulate because if you have just a heater and you fire it up every time just to heat up the garage so you can work in there. That alone will breed condensation like nobodys business and your entire layout and everything else in the room will sweat like an ice cold glass of lemonade sitting out in the sun on a hot sunday afternoon in August. Then you end up with scenery thats trashed, metal parts that are rusty because of the moisture and potential elecrical problems.
Insulating may not be enough if you plan to use it in the winter. Might need to invest in a heater to keep the temp constant to keep the moisture down.
If I am reading correctly what you are saying,..
The first vapor barrier was put up on the inside of the building and essentially is on the outside of the insulation following along the outside sheathing, wraping around each stud, essentially sealing the outside wall from air infiltration? And you used Poly for this? If so, this is why building codes and inspections exist. If this is the way this was done, and by reading your post it was, the 2nd vapor barier along with the first one is now trapping moisture in the insulation. The proper way to have done this is to have used a proper air infiltration barrier on the outside. The modern air infiltration barriers allow for moisture to breath out while not letting air movement into the cavity. Insulation only works when there is no air movement in the insulation. The vapor barier is to prevent moisture from the heated space from entering the insulation. The insulation does two jobs...The first is the most obvious one...It helps the building retain heat. The second is it prevents the cold (in a heating application) outside air from comming in contact with the inside wall surfaces which will cause for condensation to form.
I am currently redoing a house addition for a customer who had a bad mold problem. The problem was traced to the fact that the original builder wrapped the house in plastic sheeting before putting up the exterior siding. when we pulled down the drywall inside, the insulation was soaked as if there was a leak into each cavity. At the time we were not sure where the problem was coming from. The roof looked good and there were no signs of water infiltration. We finaly figured out what was happening when the neighbor came over to see what was going on. He then told us about the plastic on the outside. The rest is, as they say, history.
to the original poster...As has been said, Yes, insulate. I don't recall where you are located, but there are recomended thicknesses for your area listed online several places. Do not cram more insulation into a cavity than it can hold, IE 6" into a 4" cavity. Drywall or suspended cieling is your choice. Personaly I would go with drywall but, that is what I am good at. Suspended cielings are nice though if you need access to run speaker wires, TV cable etc.
Yes you are correct thats the way it should normally be but. I should have been a little clearer in my explanation. What we did when we finished off my friends extra large old four car garage was place the vapor barrier along the entire wall but did not tightly secure it, When the bats were placed in between the studs it pushed the loose vapor barrier in tight and then the bats were stapled i then put a second vapor barrier and taped it then rocked it. Normally we would have just insulated and wrapped the outside but he had just had the house and garage sided with pvc and didn't want to take it all down and put it back up. In hindsight it may have been a little overkill but prior to starting this project his garage was a drafty as a wind tunnel. No one wanted to listen to yours truly an just have the thing sprayed. A common trick a lot of people around here do is not remove the garage door(s) but build a wall in front of them sealing off the room from the weather, noise etc.leaving curtains or blacking out the windows give the impression that it's still a garage and not a finished room that they can charge you more taxes on.
I'd put in another vote for using sheetrock for the ceiling.
Lucky fellow to have such a nice area available.
You say that the overhead area is storage. What demention are the joists that will hold the floor for the storage area? Is a perminant floor already in place for the storage area? Ideally you would have 6" joists, so you could use 6" insulation overhead, where heat heads for. Since you are not in an extremely cold area, 4" will probably suffice. If your attic floor is not in place yet, you could use pour in insulation instead of batts, it's cheaper. We put some in an area where we could not reach under a low roof. It was not too dusty and we pushed it around with some homemade tools to level it. In your case, just pour it on the sheetrock, before putting the floor down. If the floor is there already, batts from below would be the easiest.
A chain ladder? The only ones I have seen are fire escape ladders that rest against the side of the house when thrown out the window. Does it rest against the wall? They do make stair units that fold, then retract into the ceiling. Since you will be coming down into your layout area, you want a stable path, so that you do not drop things on the layout or worse fall (on the layout or not)..
Good luck,
Allegheny2-6-6-6On the inside first put up a vapor barrier usually heavy gage plastic. On a garage that old it wouldn't be uncommon for it to be lets say less then tight construction so the vapor barrier is a good idea.
Vapor barrier should face the interior. so insulation first, then the plastic vapor barrier, seal all seams with Tyvek tape.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
I have a basement for my railroad, in a tri level house. basement is under kitchen/living room/hallways. When we moved in the basement was bare. I sheetrocked all the walls, and included insulation. I put in a suspended ceiling and carpeting on the floor over the concrete. The furnace /air condioner are located against one back wall, ducts have vents into the basement. Then I built the railroad. It is always nice down there, humidity control on the furnace, it is just a nice place winter or summer. I even built a full bath with shower in one corner and that is where I head for during the warmer weather to get wet.
Before this house, we had one that I didn't bother to finish the basement area, and we were always sorry.
Bob
IRONROOSTER I would insulate all of it including the walls. Assuming you're planning to heat and cool it, it'll save you money. I'd also take out the garage door and wall in the opening.EnjoyPaul
I would insulate all of it including the walls. Assuming you're planning to heat and cool it, it'll save you money. I'd also take out the garage door and wall in the opening.
Enjoy
Paul
I did just that when I built my first layout in my garage, and that was in Phoenix. When I framed in the wall where the garage door was, I installed a window in the center of it. I put in a long bridge in front of it; the neighborhood kids LOVED to watch the trains go over it.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Without question if you can afford it I would insulate the outside with extruded foam you know the stuff model railroaders use for scenery it's intended purpose is for insulation but that would mean residing your garage. On the inside first put up a vapor barrier usually heavy gage plastic. On a garage that old it wouldn't be uncommon for it to be lets say less then tight construction so the vapor barrier is a good idea. Then insulate the garage fully with either extruded foam between the rafter, roll insulation or even sprayed on foam In some cases it's very cost effective. I would then sheet rock the walls and ceiling and throw bats of insulation in between the ceiling joists. The tighter (well insulated) you make it the better off you and your trains will be.If done correctly you'll spend less money on hvac bills not to mention your comfort all year round will be much better then in a none insulated garage. As far as permits go if you want to give the township your hard earned money then go ahead being as your not changing anything structurally or doing any kind of electrical work I don't suspect you would even need a permit.at least around here you don't. I am convinced it's just another way of them squeezing more money out of you.
I, too, would insulate everything, walls and ceiling and then sheetrock it all (forget about ceiling tiles). Build a false wall in front of the garage doors, insulate and vapor barrier and seal everything. What are you going to use for heat? Oh, and don't forget to seal the floor with some epoxy coating or if you can afford it, build up the floor and insulate it too, (much better on your feet).
I insulated my two car garage and replaced the weather stripping around the two wooden garage doors. The resulting change was dramatic.
oo-OO-OO-oo Are you going to put your car in there also? There could be building code issues with a tile ceiling if that's the case - might not matter to you now, but it could be an issue if/when you sell the house
Are you going to put your car in there also?
There could be building code issues with a tile ceiling if that's the case - might not matter to you now, but it could be an issue if/when you sell the house
You might want to check with local building codes in any case. Whether or not you actually put a car in the garage, it's still a garage to the code enforcement people. I would call them on the phone and ask. If you don't give your name or address, you can avoid a visit from the tax assessor, but it's a good idea to know if there's something you're really not supposed to do.
But, by all means, insulate. A comfortable, year-round trainroom does wonders for your enjoyment of the hobby.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Well, one thing is for sure certain - energy prices won´t drop. Insulating your garage therefore is a cool investment in summer, and a hot one in winter. It also protects your work!
If you want to heat or even cool the room, I would insulate. Our climate is changing. And you will have to expect rising prices.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
Unless you like "warpage" and "rust" insulate the crap out of it!!!! It's a lot cheaper to insulate it now than to "retro" it after you have it all drywalled.
Have some of that good quality "foam" insulation installed in both the walls and the ceiling, you'll never regret it.
I live in Central Missouri and the summers are hot and humid and the winters are "mostly" mild but usually dry and insulation is a must if you plan to keep anything in there that you value. Obviously you would value you're trains and unless you want to see them rust in front of your eyes, insulate!!
There's no such thing as too much insulation.......
Mark
Drywall would probably be ok, and if you're doing the walls, keep going across the ceiling.
The tile won't do much as far as insulation, so whatever you put on the ceiling, you'll want something in your attic.
Houses usually have about R-30 insulation above the top floor and R-19 in the walls.
Hope that helps!
Eric
I wish I was a headlight
On a northbound train