Bdewoody Well Sheldon after going back and re-reading your post I did see a couple of sentences regarding the P2K Berks. In my case and with the relative small size and flat grades of my layout the exquisite detail of the P2K Berks outweighed the need for pulling power. In my opinion it's not pulling power but lack of weight that hampers them. I am told the more recent releases of the P2K units have addressed this issue. I haven't seen the MTH Berks in person but I can't imagine them being better or more accurately detailed with the exception of the working marker lights. I watched the video on the MTH site and as I suspected the smoke feature is a gimick that they could have left off and lowered the cost a few dollars.
Well Sheldon after going back and re-reading your post I did see a couple of sentences regarding the P2K Berks. In my case and with the relative small size and flat grades of my layout the exquisite detail of the P2K Berks outweighed the need for pulling power. In my opinion it's not pulling power but lack of weight that hampers them. I am told the more recent releases of the P2K units have addressed this issue. I haven't seen the MTH Berks in person but I can't imagine them being better or more accurately detailed with the exception of the working marker lights. I watched the video on the MTH site and as I suspected the smoke feature is a gimick that they could have left off and lowered the cost a few dollars.
I pull long trains and have grades. Out of the box the Bachmann loco only pulls slighly better than the Proto version. But with about 6 oz added and some Bull Frog Snot, the Bachmann model pulls very well, 40-45 cars on level track. There is plenty of room in the Bachman to add the weight and it is easy to disaassemble.
After closely examining a number of photos of the MTH model, it is only slightly better detailed than than the Bachmann model, neither of which is equal to the Proto model in the detail department. The MTH model has a few detail items not found on the Bachmann model, but, as I have noticed with other MTH locos, some of the detail seems oversized and bulky and/or cast on in a more "toylike" way. The running boards in particular seem very thick, making the white stripe seem too thick. Some people prefer that "more durable" approach, I personally have no problem with "scale and fragile". But overall the MTH loco does have a satisfactory look.
Because I kitbashed mine into Mikes anyway, it was simple to add some of the missing details and the Bachmann models where easy to work with for this project. I actually mixed parts from two NKP, one PM and two C&O versions to get 5 locos in 3 unique versions/sub classes for my LIMA Mike's, including two that have Bachmann long vandy tenders. When their all out of the paint shop I'll post more pictures.
Until MTH offers it locos in a non sound, DC/DCC ready version, I'm afraid I too will pass. Too much money for stuff I don't want, smoke, sound - the lighting - take it or leave it.
Sheldon
BdewoodyI'm surprised that no one mentioned the P2K berks here.
I mentioned them, complimented their fine detail and expained why I cose the Bachmann model instead.
Hamltnblue Great timing LOL. I saw this thread wasn't updated since last night and started another. Just picked one up.
Great timing LOL. I saw this thread wasn't updated since last night and started another. Just picked one up.
Well I saw your new post and all I can say is I hope you are happy with it and got your money's worth.
Springfield PA
I'm surprised that no one mentioned the P2K berks here. I have the Nickel Plate and the C & O Kanawah. P2k has excellent details and both of mine are smooth runners, The C & O has all the proper details including the proper sand dome. I also have the old Rivarossi Berkshire and even though it doesn't quite have the level of detail of the newer Berks it looks good after adding some details and it is a great puller. I also bought the Bachmann PM berk and it has about the same level of detail work as the Rivarossi and it is a good puller and with DCC is was a great bargain at $100.
I probably won't be getting the MTH Berk as I don't see it being worth that much money. I only paid about $160 for each of my P2K Berks and I can't imagine the MTH being any better.
Thanks for the feedback all.
I think I'll stop by one of the LHS here and check them out. Their website says they have them in stock.
Hi guys,
I don't know enough about the berks to know how far off each version is that MTH is offering. However, MTH is not advertising the Erie, C&O, W&LE, or RF&P versions as prototypically correct. They are shown in the catalog with their "I-Series" label and have product numbers beginning with "81." The Imagination Series is specifically for products offered in non-prototypical paint schemes. The NKP, PM, and Golden Spike berks are cataloged with product numbers beginning with "80." The 80 series items are supposed to be prototypically correct. As a said, I don't know enough about the berks to know how accurate these models are for the NKP or PM. However, I do know that the sound files are as good as it will ever get for a steamer. Rich Melvin is the publisher of O Gauge Railroading Magazine and is an engineer on NKP #765. Rich was at the throttle when MTH's sound engineer made the recordings used in the model.
climaxpwr I just like the fact its diecast metal instead of the fragile feeling plastic like the Proto. While I love models dripping in details, when I want one of those I will buy a brass one, atleast they dont feel quite as fraglie as the Proto version.
I just like the fact its diecast metal instead of the fragile feeling plastic like the Proto. While I love models dripping in details, when I want one of those I will buy a brass one, atleast they dont feel quite as fraglie as the Proto version.
Thats how I feel. Diecast metal looks and feels much more like a real train than plastic. And yes, its much less fragile. If made well, with good attention to detail, diecast engines can look extremely realistic and can actually end up looking more like a model than their plastic counterparts.
dti406It is not correct for the W&LE, the W&LE Berks were made by Alco and should have a Alco Builders plate and not a Lima Plate, I cannot tell from the pictures if that change was made. Also the W&LE Berks had Boxpox Drivers and not Spoked Drivers, along with other appliances that were W&LE specific such as an injector rather than a feedwater heater as on the model.
I was not sure, so before commenting I did some research. While the W&LE locos are based on the same design, they were built by Alco and have a large number of easily spotted differences from any of the NKP, PM or C&O locos bult by LIMA. Drivers, piping, sand dome, feed water heater, just to name a few.
I have compared both drawings and photos in my personal library to confirm this.
So the loco is right for one road name, close for one and way off for the others.
From a detail standpoint, Bachmann did a better job. And, if you do want sound, even though not offered with it, the Bachmann tenders are "speaker ready".
All at a time when modelers are supposedly "demanding" more accurate models. Not if they buy C&O 2-8-4's from MTH.
Hamltnblue Which railroad would it be accurate for? Also when you say the marker lights are only used by loco's running light as at "train", what exactly does that mean. I assume all would be running as a train. Is it that they would only run if there was nothing behind it, such as pusher service?
Which railroad would it be accurate for?
Also when you say the marker lights are only used by loco's running light as at "train", what exactly does that mean. I assume all would be running as a train. Is it that they would only run if there was nothing behind it, such as pusher service?
It is accurate for the Nickle Plate, and really close for the early production Pere Marquette locos, but the C&O locos had different sand boxes placed forward of the steam dome, different shields in front of the air compressors on the deck, deck mounted headlights and, completely different, much larger tenders. The C&O locos also had different cabs that are about 10" longer than those on the other roads. Bachmann allowed for all of these differences on their model as did Proto.
Markers would only be displayed on the rear of a loco if it is running light on the mainline or if it is a pusher.
A loco actually pulling a train would not display markers on the tender.
thats right, I forgot the Wheeling Berks were Alco produced. i think thier main target group for sales are the NKP folks. Most modelers at large might be hard pressed to show you where the injector is on a model. I suspect that even the "fantisy" roadnames will sell well enough for MTH to make $$. After all Athearn has even jumped on that band wagon with ATSF and PRR F59's and Chessie Dash 9's. I just like the fact its diecast metal instead of the fragile feeling plastic like the Proto. While I love models dripping in details, when I want one of those I will buy a brass one, atleast they dont feel quite as fraglie as the Proto version. But I think the Bachmann Berkshrie is the most "bang for the buck" so to speak. They run excellent, just need a bit more ballest to pull a decent load. One would hope the almighty Bachmann would pay attention to this and offer the next runs with more weight in the boiler. Bachmann's is a S1 class, friction bearings on the pilot truck and tender trucks. I know I was impressed when I got my berk from them. The detail and decoration on the model is right up there. If the MTH fits your needs and your wallet, go for it! I know its tempting to me, but I am trying to stay more in focus to my chosen prototype right now. Cheers Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
Hamltnblue The MTH site is a little of a pain to navigate. Do you have a link to the video on their website you referred to? Thanks
The MTH site is a little of a pain to navigate. Do you have a link to the video on their website you referred to?
Thanks
All you have to do is go to mthhotrains.com and on the home page, you'll find a box at the bottom left - (MTH NEWS) inside there is already a link about the release of the Berkshires - click on it and it'll take you to the overview. Scroll down to the just below the title and you'll see a small thumbnail - click on it and it'll take you through a brief history of the engine prototype(this girl makes my teeth itch)but if you can get through the 2 - minute intro , you then get taken to the video, on MTH's in house demo layout(very basic). It gives you a great idea of the sounds and smoothness of the engine.
HINT: If you pay close attention, you'll get a sneak peak of the SP Daylight Articulated Coach cars.
Enjoy.
Rick
HeritageFleet1
climaxpwrThe engine is prototypical for the Nickel Plate, W&LE and PM.
The engine is prototypical for the Nickel Plate, W&LE and PM.
It is not correct for the W&LE, the W&LE Berks were made by Alco and should have a Alco Builders plate and not a Lima Plate, I cannot tell from the pictures if that change was made. Also the W&LE Berks had Boxpox Drivers and not Spoked Drivers, along with other appliances that were W&LE specific such as an injector rather than a feedwater heater as on the model.
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
The engine is prototypical for the Nickel Plate, W&LE and PM. NKP had them with and without the mars lights, so did W&LE. PM had no mars light. The sand dome is farther forward on the C&O amoung other differances such as headlight position. The bulk of the added cost is the tooling to make it from diecast metal instead of plastic. There are major differances in tooling design and cost from a plastic production tool to a diecast metal tool. Also all those little nice things like working mars, class, numberboard and tender markers add up to extra cost. The Bachmann model is really really nice, almost a Spectrum model in the DCC/Onboard range. Change the headlight LED's to golden whites and remove the LED from the mars and either make it dark or functional. The MTH one should pull the best, followed by the Bachmann one. The Proto berk felt to fragile to me. I resold mine after fixing cracking axle problems similar to what the Proto diesels have had issus with. If you really want a nice running and pulling NKP or C&O Berk without the electronics, go find one of the old PFM/Untied brass ones. Even with thier original open frame motors they normaly run as nice as anything in production today. Swap in a new can motor and add some decent amounts of lead sheeting to the boiler and they will pull a house down. Cheers Mike and Michele T
Prototypical or not, I LOVE the illuminated marker lamps on the tender, especially for night time running. There is just something about that subtle red glow that screams 'train', when they are lit they remind me of something at the franklin institute, very antique and retro looking.
With that being said some of these models I believe have the option of turning them on or off, so actually if you are using them correctly, they do add to the realism of a model railroad, isn't that more realistic than having plastic dummy markers in their place?
Btw, although I won't be getting a berkshire, I think the 'American Railroads' version put out by MTH is stunning to say the least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n2mIFXFDFA
What this really gets down to is "What do you want?".
I have watched several online video's of this loco and closely examined it's detail. While nice, its appearance seems no better than the Bachmann model.
I do have EVERY respect for the overall quality of MTH products, I'm sure it's well made.
Aside from issues with MTH over DC control and sound, here's were this model lets me down and would have me spend my money elsewhere.
Marker lights on tenders - only used by locos running light as a "train", what a waste of time for "modelers".
But more importantly is the fact that MTH made only one version of this loco and then lettered it for all versions. No correct C&O sand box, pilot and tenders offered, what a shame. As both a C&O modeler and a freelancer, I have an interst in both versions of this prototype.
I am in the final stages of converting 5 Lima Berkshire models into heavy Mikado's similar to the DT&I 800 class for my free lanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL. Had the MTH model been out sooner, been offered in unlettered and DC/DCC ready, it may well have been the platform for my conversions - again because I know the mechanism is very good.
But again, I will simply state, MTH is obviously not interested in money from people like me.
So after much research, I chose the Bachmann model as the platform for my conversions. Here is one in progress:
I added weight for better pulling performance, added details, made the obvious conversion of the trailing truck and will be repainting and lettering ATLANTIC CENTRAL. I also removed the DCC decoder.
I am doing 5 of these, MTH could have had this business, but was not interested.
The Proto2000 model was considered but its poor pulling performance and and history of difficult disassembly combined with its high price rulled it out, even though it is much better detailed than the Bachmann model.
The MTH model, with its much higher price, does not appear to be significantly bertter detailed than the Bachmann model. Is all that extra cost DCS?
I'm sure the MTH model is nice if you want sound, I still think Mike is foolish to ignore the other "half" of the market.
Except for BLI, no other manufacturer has ignored the the non sound, non DCC market and none are showing any signs of doing so. This suggests that sales of non sound, non DCC models by Athearn, Bachmann, Bowser, Atlas, Intermountain, and others are just as strong as sales of DCC/sound models, if not stronger. Possibly fueled by the desire of some to install the decoder of their choice, or a continued use of DC by at least 50% of the market.
My Bachmann models cost only $105 each, and yes I did some work on them to get the performance I desired. BUT, they run smooth and slow on my Aristo Train Engineer and easily pull 40 cars.
If only MTH would offer true DC.............................
Never mind the link I found it. You have to click on the picture on their product page. doesn't look like a video link.
I found a youtube link to the same video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iewsyloLS8
Hamltnblue I'm considering picking up one of their 2-8-4 Berkshire's and have been reading on them some. Has anyone here tried one out and if so what do you think of it? I don't consist with Steamers so I would leave the factory decoder in. Thanks
I'm considering picking up one of their 2-8-4 Berkshire's and have been reading on them some.
Has anyone here tried one out and if so what do you think of it?
I don't consist with Steamers so I would leave the factory decoder in.
Good morning and Happy Fathers Day to all .
I just received mine last week... the 765 2009 excursion version with the white sidesills.
When I saw this in operation on their website, I really wanted it but restrained for financial reasons, and then I got a check in the mail from a recent insurance claim.
I ordered mine immediately.
I don't know what to say other than just like all my other steamers, this one puts a smile on my face from ear ot ear. I understand that there are a lot of people who don't like sound but this engine has the actual digitally recorded sounds of the 765 NKP...bell, whistle in various configurations, and chuff.
I opted to turn off the cab chatter on mine but' that's a lot of fun when you're family and friends are over.
The only little teeny tiny nit-pick is that you can see a trace of light spilling over thru the edge of the front of the boiler housing, from the marker lamps - same thing on the rear tender - the red lanterns LED's spill up thru a hole where a metal grabiron is located.
It is no big deal -it can be easily remedied with a little work.
The locomotive's performance and detail more than makeup for this minor annoyance.
The other versions are well done too - a friend just got the W&LE which I almost bought myself -nice.
I can highly recommend this model without reservation...you'll like it.
Rick- HeritageFleet1
Good Morning and Happy Fathers Day.
I'm not the biggest fan of DCS but I do like the quality of MTH.