Everyone looking on, and those who have responded, I think it's time to put this one to bed. It has largely all been said, and said nicely. Some of us should re-examine our assumptions, it seems, or at least allow that we may not have it quite figured out the way we had thought. That includes moi-meme (myself, in French).
-Crandell
[locked]
Geared SteamYou support your local LHS, but not your local auto manufacturer?.....
maxmanHamltnblue Sorry to have bored you with an opinion.
Hamltnblue
Sorry to have bored you with an opinion.
Not bored with your opinion. Just think the thread has run it's course.
Springfield PA
selectorIf Walthers will sell you the single tiny lift ring for $2 plus $6 shipping, can you hope to get the same item delivered when it must be shipped to a distributor first, and then redirected to the LHS, or maybe to you? Not for the initial $2, unless the distributor is working for good will alone.
Well actually, yes. In fact, less.
Example, The latest Walthers flyer I recieved has WS Plaster cloth roll on sale for $6.98. (no reason for that, I just opened the flyer and looked for the first item I recalled the asking price at my LHS) Which actually happens to be what my LHS sells it for all the time last time I checked a couple months ago. Paying Walthers shipping and handling, my out of pocket cost for a roll of Plaster Cloth is $15.93. At my LHS it is, including tax, $7.54. If the cloth was not on sale the selling price would be $8.99 so add $2.01 to Walthers but keep the LHS the same. I can buy 2 rolls at my LHS for the price of 1 from Walthers. Or anywere they charge retail and add shipping. Actually, any online store that charges shipping and handling, and gives up to a 20% off suggested retail, it is cheaper and handier to buy from my LHS. But ONLY because I am luck enough to have a well equiped train hobby shop within about a 20 minute drive.
Now, that is on an in stock item. As I have never had to order something they did not stock, I don't know for sure their policy. However, since they order regularly from Walthers, I don't see why there would be an additional charge.
I'm not knocking Walthers, and I understand why the sell to the public. To pick up the customers that don't have access ro a LHS. And I understand why they don't want to compete with the lions share of their customers, the Hobby shops.
THAT being said. There is a lot to be said for feeling comfortable dealing with a company you trust. If that is worth the extra to you, if knowing that you will have a hastle free experience should your purchase arrive damaged rather than a hastle ofver a cheaper price, or for what ever reason you choose to do business with whatever company......, that's your choice and have at it.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell johngriffey18ca1 I don't discount my work because it's impossible. But that's a long story. The problem is there is a load of overhead. I'm not saying sell it to me for what they bought it for, I'm saying instead of making $70 an engine make make $20 or $30. Look at MB Klein, they sell at a very fair discount and thier business is booming. Ok, they're obviously not the size of walthers but they are doing very well. Walthers had a foot in the door decades ago and MB Klein is fairly small and hasn't been around as long as Walthers and business for them is booming. MBKline, 1913, and Walthers 1932! Nuff said MB Klein 1913 - that's funny, that's when his father started the hardware store, not when he started selling model trains out of it. Sheldon
rrebell johngriffey18ca1 I don't discount my work because it's impossible. But that's a long story. The problem is there is a load of overhead. I'm not saying sell it to me for what they bought it for, I'm saying instead of making $70 an engine make make $20 or $30. Look at MB Klein, they sell at a very fair discount and thier business is booming. Ok, they're obviously not the size of walthers but they are doing very well. Walthers had a foot in the door decades ago and MB Klein is fairly small and hasn't been around as long as Walthers and business for them is booming. MBKline, 1913, and Walthers 1932! Nuff said
johngriffey18ca1 I don't discount my work because it's impossible. But that's a long story. The problem is there is a load of overhead. I'm not saying sell it to me for what they bought it for, I'm saying instead of making $70 an engine make make $20 or $30. Look at MB Klein, they sell at a very fair discount and thier business is booming. Ok, they're obviously not the size of walthers but they are doing very well. Walthers had a foot in the door decades ago and MB Klein is fairly small and hasn't been around as long as Walthers and business for them is booming.
I don't discount my work because it's impossible. But that's a long story. The problem is there is a load of overhead. I'm not saying sell it to me for what they bought it for, I'm saying instead of making $70 an engine make make $20 or $30. Look at MB Klein, they sell at a very fair discount and thier business is booming. Ok, they're obviously not the size of walthers but they are doing very well. Walthers had a foot in the door decades ago and MB Klein is fairly small and hasn't been around as long as Walthers and business for them is booming.
MB Klein 1913 - that's funny, that's when his father started the hardware store, not when he started selling model trains out of it.
Sheldon
Sheldon - in response to your quest for specifics, I would be glad to point out every single questionable statement and figure in this post, but it'll have to wait until I have a day off to go through this whole thread with a fine tooth comb.
My main point in making the earlier post is that some, certainly not all, customers read what is posted on these threads as fact. When they read about the wholesale discounts that we get, and if they take them as factual, then it appears that we are making far more profit than we are.
Granted this has only happened once, but recently a gentlemen from out of state came in my store and mentioned about "100% profits" selling trains. I asked him where he heard that and he said he read it on a forum.
Personally I don't think it is wise to be posting exactly what my discount rates are. Other train shop owners don't appreciate it, distributors don't like it and manufacturers don't want it out in public. It's really no one else's business, in my opinion.
So it's hard to post "specifics" on a thread like this. I just thought it needed to be said that some... not all... of the things mentioned in this thread are at least questionable.
That's probably all I'm going to say. It's Saturday and I'm going to go sell some trains now. Hope everyone has a happy and productive weekend enjoying our hobby!
loathar I shop Walthers a lot because of their inventory and customer service. I usually only buy things on sale from their monthly flyers. Never had a bad experience dealing with them.
I shop Walthers a lot because of their inventory and customer service. I usually only buy things on sale from their monthly flyers. Never had a bad experience dealing with them.
Second the motion. I especially like the fact that their phone rep can tell you, real time, if an item is in stock. That, all by itself, is worth occasionally paying full MSRP (less the sales tax I don't get charged.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with a lot of 'generics' from Walthers)
ok, thanks for your help "selector". I did find a useful job for walthers....There is this broadway limited california zephyr dome observation car that is out of stock everywhere called silver solarium. I found a goon on ebay trying to rip people off and charge over double the MSRP for the car(and of course some genious has now bid on it). Well, I used walthers search tool and found a hobby shop that still had one in stock and I bought it for the sale price of $10 below MSRP saving myself another 80 bucks on one car versus if I had got the one on ebay. So Walthers is now off my bad boy list :) That search tool is a wallet saver. If it says an item is not in stock, click the link that says find it...It's worth the clicking of your mouse!
Hello. If you have not replied to 'yourself', and no one has replied to your post, you can delete them yourself. If is only in the case where someone has clicked on 'reply' just below your post, or quoted, that the first post cannot be deleted.
Anyway, I deleted them for you.
*****SORRY FOR THE REPOSTS, THE QUICK REPLY OPTION WAS MESSING UP NOW I CAN'T REMOVE THEM******
Hello All, The OP here:
I've learned some interesting things from your responses. Like I mentioned before, I see they survive on volume. As for LHS survivability, my LHS see's me in there on two occasions: 1. When I can't find an item on the internet. 2. When I want to chat and maybe suck it up and purchase one piece of rolling stock for MSRP. Why you ask? Because they charge full MSRP all the time. Now I think that saving money actually stimulates the economy. For example, since I had $400 left over I spent that money on some passenger cars that I normally wouldn't have purchased. The problem with my LHS is the guy runs the shop as a hobby. All of his money is made off of real estate, he doesn't care if you dont purcahse anything. The place is good for quality conversation though!
maxman But I think most of you have looked in the Walthers catalog at least once or twice in your lifetimes. There are hundreds (probably thousands) of trinkets, do-dads, and other esoteric items in there, all of which have value to someone. And between their catalog and their website, where they actually list what might be available and even generally show a picture, I at least have a chance of seeing what might or might not be available. Does Klein do this? No. Does Trainworld do this? No. Does anyone else do this? Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't think that very many of the hobby shops have catalogs from all the different vendors, and I'm pretty sure that some vendors don't even have comprehensive catalogs available to the general public. And I think I'd be pretty safe in saying that most of us model railroaders don't have an extensive catalog library. You all talk about how you get all the great service from this or that internet vendor or local hobby shop. But call one of those places up and ask if they happen to carry a lift ring for a GE diesel long hood. Do you actually think they are going to spend any time with that request? On the other hand, if I walk into that shop and ask if they can get me a Utah Pacific lift ring with Walthers part number such and so, I think I can get much better results. And I really don't believe that the hobby shop owner is going to order that part from Utah Pacific, even if they could. They'll add it onto their next order from whomever their distributor is. And if that distributor doesn't happen to be Walthers, I would still bet that the Walthers catalog number would be used as a reference. Now, I agree that many things can be bought online, in many cases direct from the manufacturer. But if I need one item from Utah Pacific, two items from Cannon and Company, some windows from Tichy, and some 0-72 screws from Ye Olde Nut and Bolt, do you really think it is reasonable for me to place those orders individually and pay $8.75 shipping for each order? Or does it make more sense for me to order these things from the hobby shop, pay MSRP +/- plus tax and avoid shipping and have the shop get the stuff from Walthers? Or alternately order direct from Walthers, pay the shipping, avoid the tax, and have the items delivered to my door? The fact is, gentlepeople, that a company like Walthers does the hobby a service by being willing to use their money to stockpile a bunch of stuff in hopes that complainers like us will eventually make a purchase. And maybe we should stop a moment and think where we will get what we need when the, what did you call them, oh yeah, "unnecessary leaches" go away.
But I think most of you have looked in the Walthers catalog at least once or twice in your lifetimes. There are hundreds (probably thousands) of trinkets, do-dads, and other esoteric items in there, all of which have value to someone. And between their catalog and their website, where they actually list what might be available and even generally show a picture, I at least have a chance of seeing what might or might not be available. Does Klein do this? No. Does Trainworld do this? No. Does anyone else do this? Maybe, but I don't think so. I don't think that very many of the hobby shops have catalogs from all the different vendors, and I'm pretty sure that some vendors don't even have comprehensive catalogs available to the general public. And I think I'd be pretty safe in saying that most of us model railroaders don't have an extensive catalog library.
You all talk about how you get all the great service from this or that internet vendor or local hobby shop. But call one of those places up and ask if they happen to carry a lift ring for a GE diesel long hood. Do you actually think they are going to spend any time with that request? On the other hand, if I walk into that shop and ask if they can get me a Utah Pacific lift ring with Walthers part number such and so, I think I can get much better results. And I really don't believe that the hobby shop owner is going to order that part from Utah Pacific, even if they could. They'll add it onto their next order from whomever their distributor is. And if that distributor doesn't happen to be Walthers, I would still bet that the Walthers catalog number would be used as a reference.
Now, I agree that many things can be bought online, in many cases direct from the manufacturer. But if I need one item from Utah Pacific, two items from Cannon and Company, some windows from Tichy, and some 0-72 screws from Ye Olde Nut and Bolt, do you really think it is reasonable for me to place those orders individually and pay $8.75 shipping for each order? Or does it make more sense for me to order these things from the hobby shop, pay MSRP +/- plus tax and avoid shipping and have the shop get the stuff from Walthers? Or alternately order direct from Walthers, pay the shipping, avoid the tax, and have the items delivered to my door?
The fact is, gentlepeople, that a company like Walthers does the hobby a service by being willing to use their money to stockpile a bunch of stuff in hopes that complainers like us will eventually make a purchase. And maybe we should stop a moment and think where we will get what we need when the, what did you call them, oh yeah, "unnecessary leaches" go away.
Maxman, all good and valid points, and true many small shops would fill your request for those items through Walthers.
But keep in mind the following:
While the Walthers Catalog is a wealth of those "do dads and gizzmos" of our hobby, they actually have less of that sort of thing then they did years ago. I understand and agree with your "convience of ordering" idea, but the fact is even those products are slowly going to direct distribution.
Walthers used to sell the whole "Kemtron" line, now part of Precision Scale Co. - their complete line of brass parts use to be in Walthers catalog, now only a few items are in there. The parts section in the Walthers catalog is only a fraction of what it was a few decades ago. If you want these items, you or your local shop buys them right from PSC, who, by the way, is very willing to sell to your local shop direct, or to you. And they have very detailed catalogs they will send you
Bowser, who owns Cal Scale also sells direct to dealers of any size, just like a "distributor", just like Athearn is "self distributed". In addition to locos and rollng stock, Bowser sells lots of those "bits and pieces" for our hobby, just take a look at their web site. And they too will sell direct to you. When I need Cal Scale (I use a lot of it), My LHS oders it directly form Bowser, not from Walthers.
I know several good hobby shops, who buy lots/most products direct, that have great stocks of "bits and pieces" for our hobby, and still have discount prices.
MB Klein was once a great hobby shop that had "everything", not so much now, but they still are a good source for lots of stuff. I don't know all the details of what's on their web site because I can just drive there and ask for what I want, but they still seem to have a fair selection of "bits and pieces".
Kadee hardly sells anything that costs more than $40, yet they sell direct to lots of dealers.
Some lines like Berkshire Junction are only sold direct, be it to dealers or direct to you, by mail or at train shows.
In my view, regardless of were they get it, the point of a GOOD hobby shop is to have the basics, even the basic "bits and pieces" in stock.
When I ran a train department in a hobby shop I did my best to keep EVERY piece of Cal Scale and a full selection of Kadee trucks and couplers in STOCK all the time, not have special order them, just to name a few items.
As for the pricing on the "do dads and bits and pieces", I just buy the stuff, at what price a shop or manufacturer charges me (up to and including retail).
But the fact remains, the "distribution" process in this hobby is changing, and it is headed toward more direct distribution to keep prices lower.
maxman...And maybe we should stop a moment and think where we will get what we need when the, what did you call them, oh yeah, "unnecessary leaches" go away.
We'll hope to get a reduction on the cost that they would need to add for their cut. And we'd get them from the same entity that needs them to sell in the first place...that needs a buyer.
If Walthers will sell you the single tiny lift ring for $2 plus $6 shipping, can you hope to get the same item delivered when it must be shipped to a distributor first, and then redirected to the LHS, or maybe to you? Not for the initial $2, unless the distributor is working for good will alone.
selector I wouldn't look for any national conventions to attend ifyaknowhaddamean? Seriously, they are unnecessary these days, and just another leach/mouth-to-feed in the network that hobby businesses can do without.
I don't believe that I was trying to justify middlemen. It just seems to me that some of them are a necessity. Everyone here seems to be concentrating on what I would call big ticket items, locomotives for example, or commodity items, say flextrack for example, that you can always find a better price for if you look around.
Regards!
No matter what you buy, you expect it to be good. When it isn't, the Mfr should stand by their product. They should not expect you to pay for shipping. Where did you get the idea that "everyone must pay shipping"? Is there anyone else on this thread that believes that? If I was sending the loco back because "I broke something", I would not only pay shipping, I would pay the cost to repair. Buy when the product is defective, and it's their fault, they should be happy to refund my shipping costs. That would be good business practice. Again, IMHO.
This a very old discussion. I have heard about this Walther's issue before the 'Net ever came to be but it does provide an outlet for Ranters.
They survive on Volume. End of story. Lets get back to working on our model railroads.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
PennsyNutSome years ago I purchased an Athearn Mike with DCC/sound for $200 or so. It had a bad axle/wheel. The purchased source said "Call Athearn". And after that, I had to pay the shipping to send to Athearn. That was the last Athearn product I've ever bought. They produced an inferior product and didn't even have the decency to send me my shipping cost. Was that because I didn't buy it direct from Athearn?
Virtually everyone makes you pay shipping to them and not just in the MR business, it seems to have become standard practice in the last decade. It has nothing to do with where you bought the item, it doesn't make any sense to boycot Athearn, unless you're also going to boycot Walthers, Atlas, Kato, Bowser, Digitrax, BLI, NCE, etc, etc, etc.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
One Track Mind Stopping in long enough to mention to those folks who might need a reminder, don't believe everything you read on the internet. There are some statements and figures in this thread that are not correct. Just sayin'.... carry on.
Stopping in long enough to mention to those folks who might need a reminder, don't believe everything you read on the internet. There are some statements and figures in this thread that are not correct. Just sayin'.... carry on.
Specificly?
selector Well, I wouldn't reply with a 'snorey', maxman but I do believe that the middle man of yesteryear is soon to be as plentiful as the dodo. I wouldn't look for any national conventions to attend ifyaknowhaddamean? Seriously, they are unnecessary these days, and just another leach/mouth-to-feed in the network that hobby businesses can do without. Having said that, though, my local hobby shop (closed since the summer of '07) did order from his 'supplier(s)', and in some cases it was a middle person. Usually it was direct from Walthers or Digitrax...whatever. -Crandell
Well, I wouldn't reply with a 'snorey', maxman but I do believe that the middle man of yesteryear is soon to be as plentiful as the dodo. I wouldn't look for any national conventions to attend ifyaknowhaddamean? Seriously, they are unnecessary these days, and just another leach/mouth-to-feed in the network that hobby businesses can do without.
Having said that, though, my local hobby shop (closed since the summer of '07) did order from his 'supplier(s)', and in some cases it was a middle person. Usually it was direct from Walthers or Digitrax...whatever.
Seems to be that there are a lot of middle men out there though to feed---- Now---if'n we got the LHS's together to actually buy lock stock and pickle barrel from the mfg's en mass as it were then you just might be on to something-----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
maxmanSo far as the 20% off goes, I did a random calculation on random items. Bachmann engines seem to be the percent off champ - around 40%. But there did not seem to be a great selection. Proto 2000 items seemed to be 30% off and Athearn engines seemed to be 25% to 30% off. And since these items are from Walthers and Athearn, I guess that qualifies them as coming from distributors. Atlas engines were around 30% off. I have no idea if Klein deals direct with Atlas or goes through a distributor.
Athearn/Horizon and Walthers are the SOLE source of their products, they distribute them themselves. No other wholesalers sell them. That makes it different because they do sell THEIR OWN PRODUCTS at a discount that is lower than the traditional dealer discount from other multi line distributors. Example - Walthers no longer distributes Athearn and Athearn/Horizon sells Athearn at a discount lower than the traditional 40%, it is actually 55% off IIRC.
Kleins is doing EXACTLY what I discribed in one of my other posts, stuff is priced based on cost, Bachmann which has a big discount direct form Bachmann is discounted 40%, Athearn which has an in between discount is discounted accordingly. The fact that Walthers brand products like Proto are discounted more than 20% shows clearly that Walthers is giving a big dealer like Kleins more than the standard 40% off - Why, because they can as both the manufacturer and distributor in one and dealers the size of Kleins buy enough to make that a good deal for Walthers.
Atlas, I'm sure they buy it direct, as does Train World and many others.
Kadee - anyone in this business can but it direct if they buy enough.
Sure they fill in some types of products and some lines from distributors, but in terms of dollars, 80-90% is likely bought direct by dealers like Kleins.
And, the whole point of buying direct is to buy in large enough quanities to then HAVE IT ON HAND and not have to be re-ordering it all the time. You become your own warehouse/distributor - that's why you need the higher volume of selling on the internet.
But what do I know, I just used to work in that business and and have been self employed most of my life.
ATLANTIC CENTRALDid you read any of my posts? MB Klein sells at 20% of buying almost everything direct from the manufacturers just like a wholesale house, as do all the other big discounters, Train World, etc.
I'm sorry, but I'm having just a bit of trouble believing that Klein gets "almost everything" direct from the manufacturer. Maybe a few things direct, but I think they must get a lot of their items from a distributor (or distributors) just like everyone else. It just does not make business sense to me, especially in this day and age, to have a person who's sole job would be to issue multiple small orders to multiple small vendors when it would be much more convenient to sit down and place one large order with a distributor, WKW for example. I looked at Klein's vendor list and I think I counted almost 100 of them. Of course, some had no items listed. But others had one or two items, and others had multiple pages of items.
So far as the 20% off goes, I did a random calculation on random items. Bachmann engines seem to be the percent off champ - around 40%. But there did not seem to be a great selection. Proto 2000 items seemed to be 30% off and Athearn engines seemed to be 25% to 30% off. And since these items are from Walthers and Athearn, I guess that qualifies them as coming from distributors. Atlas engines were around 30% off. I have no idea if Klein deals direct with Atlas or goes through a distributor.
The remaining items I looked at, which were in the 20% off range, were from Cannon and Company (a brakewheel); Faller (brickpaper); Kibri (a structure), and a MV lens. It just does not seem likely that Klein would have someone dedicated to purchasing from all these little vendors.
I will concede that Kleins buys direct in some cases. But then if they are selling new Athearn or Walthers items, they would almost have to do their purchasing from Walthers or Horizon Hobby, would they not? It is my opinion that Kleins is able to keep their prices low by making large volume purchases from a minimum number of distributors, not small volume purchases from a bunch of little vendors.
And someone mentioned Trainworld. As I type this I'm looking at the Trainworld ad on the right side of the screen. They call themselves "the closeout kings". Reminds me of "Ollies...good stuff cheap". I have a hard time believing that they are approaching the manufacturers and asking to make a deal on a purchase in the hobby store sense. I think it's much more likely that they are either approaching the manufacturers and saying "okay, this is what I offer to take a whole bunch of excess inventory off your hands seeing as how next Friday is payday and you probably could use the cash to pay your bills", or are being approached by the same manufacturers asking "how much to take this stuff off our hands because we've got new stuff arriving tomorrow".
Anyway, just my opinion.
Driline blownout cylinderLook at what just happened in the auto sector--JDPower released figures showing Ford at the top. In 1991 FORD was supposed to be building cars "as good as the Japanese". It was a lie back then. It's been 19 years now and I am supposed to believe that FORD is once again building cars as good as the Japanese? I'll give them 10 years from now. If the cars they build today in 2010 have a reliablity track record as good as Toyota, or Honda, then I'll buy. But it will be 2020 before I throw $30,000 at a FORD again.
blownout cylinderLook at what just happened in the auto sector--JDPower released figures showing Ford at the top.
In 1991 FORD was supposed to be building cars "as good as the Japanese". It was a lie back then. It's been 19 years now and I am supposed to believe that FORD is once again building cars as good as the Japanese? I'll give them 10 years from now. If the cars they build today in 2010 have a reliablity track record as good as Toyota, or Honda, then I'll buy. But it will be 2020 before I throw $30,000 at a FORD again.
Ford stops when you push the brake pedal.
You support your local LHS, but not your local auto manufacturer?.....
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Oh Please: Do not start on autos. This is MR. As for Walthers. It's the same as anything. You pays your money and you takes your choice. If you Gov't employees are so overpaid, why wasn't I? I'm retired Gov't Emp and am just barely making it. My MR budget is so low, it takes me 6 months to save enough to buy something for my hobby. And with all the competition for our $.!! Look at grocery prices. Enough! As for buying from Walthers. I have never done so. I buy from LHS & online & mail order. I can call my LHS and if they have it in stock or order it, and ship to me. Any way we shop is good. I also never shop eBay, Craig's List, or whatever.But y'all can do so if you desire. It's called free market. It's also "el caveat emptor"! Finally, it is Not true that you get what you pay for. A BLI engine is a BLI engine whether you pay $399.95 plus shipping plus tax OR $350.00 including tax & shipping. The loco is the same. One source is not going to open the box & ruin your purchase. Some years ago I purchased an Athearn Mike with DCC/sound for $200 or so. It had a bad axle/wheel. The purchased source said "Call Athearn". And after that, I had to pay the shipping to send to Athearn. That was the last Athearn product I've ever bought. They produced an inferior product and didn't even have the decency to send me my shipping cost. Was that because I didn't buy it direct from Athearn? Duh! They didn't care where I bought it from, and they did replace the broken/bad parts and returned it to me. Sorry I rambled on here. All IMHO of course.