ATLANTIC CENTRAL Don, I took a look at Ebay and you must have just gotten lucky at "the favorite spot" as rrebell suggests. Everyone else selling 2-6-6-2's on there is at or above the prices I mentioned. The prices I quoted are from two brick and mortar stores here in Maryland that sell lots of Bachmann. Years ago, before Bachmann offered sound, Soundtraxx was taking Spectrum locos, adding sound and reselling them. Just as Bachmann was announcing their new sound locos, Soundtraxx put about 40 unlettered 2-6-6-2's (DC versions) on Ebay at the low sarting price of $75.00. They put them out in groups of about 4 a week. After a few weeks bids slowed and some friends and I managed to get about 6 of them for $75.00 each. That was a bargin! Sheldon
Don,
I took a look at Ebay and you must have just gotten lucky at "the favorite spot" as rrebell suggests. Everyone else selling 2-6-6-2's on there is at or above the prices I mentioned. The prices I quoted are from two brick and mortar stores here in Maryland that sell lots of Bachmann.
Years ago, before Bachmann offered sound, Soundtraxx was taking Spectrum locos, adding sound and reselling them. Just as Bachmann was announcing their new sound locos, Soundtraxx put about 40 unlettered 2-6-6-2's (DC versions) on Ebay at the low sarting price of $75.00. They put them out in groups of about 4 a week.
After a few weeks bids slowed and some friends and I managed to get about 6 of them for $75.00 each.
That was a bargin!
Sheldon
I am not complaining. The prices I quoted for sound were from mid week, on the weekend prices rose about $25.00 for the 2-6-6-2 units with sound. I bought mine mid week before the weekend when there are more bidders.
You certainly did get a bargain with the undecorated units for $75.00, even if it was a few years ago.
don7 Having been recently converted to sound I was considering adding a Tsunami sound decoder to my Spectrum 2-6-6-2. Before I ordered the sound decoder, speaker and baffle have been checking e-bay to see what the new Spectrum 2-6-6-2 with the Vandy tender is selling for. I was very surprised, shocked actually, that the new 2-6-6-2 without sound is selling for $120-$130 and with sound can be picked up for around $150.00. Based on this information I am no longer going to upgrade one of my 2-6-6-2's to sound, I purchased one at a certified Bachmann e-bay outlet. Has Bachmann flooded the market with the new 2-6-6-2 engine with the Vandy tender?
Having been recently converted to sound I was considering adding a Tsunami sound decoder to my Spectrum 2-6-6-2.
Before I ordered the sound decoder, speaker and baffle have been checking e-bay to see what the new Spectrum 2-6-6-2 with the Vandy tender is selling for.
I was very surprised, shocked actually, that the new 2-6-6-2 without sound is selling for $120-$130 and with sound can be picked up for around $150.00.
Based on this information I am no longer going to upgrade one of my 2-6-6-2's to sound, I purchased one at a certified Bachmann e-bay outlet.
Has Bachmann flooded the market with the new 2-6-6-2 engine with the Vandy tender?
Don, If you got one for $150.00 that really is a good deal.
The current street price on those is about $275 with sound/DCC and about $220 without sound.
Flooded the market? Not to my knowledge. What does that mean? A lot are available because they just came out. Has Bachmann sold them at lower prices to their dealers than they normally would? I seriously doubt it. Did some dealers buy more than they could sell QUICKLY and now maybe want or need to get out of them - maybe, but I even doubt that on a large scale.
Here's the thing, any dealer who is buying product from a manufacturer on the idea that he will sell all of it in 3 months or 6 months is not a good dealer, he is only interested in a fast buck, not in providing the kind of service a dealer should provide, be they mailorder or brick and mortar.
$150 is likely at or below cost from Bachmann for a sound version, so maybe, as I said, someone bought them and now they are not selling "fast enough" and he wants his money out. But likely he is only making pennies, if anything, at that price.
You probably bought from the favorite spot. They start all their auctions at 99cents and let the bidding begin, must work because in two years I have only gotten 4 bargains from them (and seen lots of people pay close to msrp) and I only bottom feed!
To add a little clarification to what I said earlier about hi-rail and collecting, I don't think its so much that various roadnames from west to east are represented that bothers me. Its the fact that every engine, nearly every single piece of rolling stock and so forth, not to mention almost all Lionel O gauge accessories are so darn expensive and gimmicky. Thats the problem. Lionel just released a Vision Line operating stock car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmtMevnUKfs
That car right there is $150 for all of those features. Now again, if somebody enjoys collecting that kinda stuff, thats fine, but its not for me. And a lot of this stuff nowadays gets incorrectly grouped in to what we know as "hi-rail". A lot of so called hi-rail layouts are really not that(in my opinion). The term today really has no boundaries. One could run these high end expensive toys with all of the bells and whistles on a very basic layout of fast track and call it hi-rail, as long as it isn't viewed as cheap by their O gauge peers. We're talking about Lionel Legacy Big Boy's running along side the Empire State Express or the Hiawatha. Again, the problem is the price of each one of these engines for all of the gimmicks, not the fact that they have the potential to occasionally share the same layout.
On the other hand someone could actually run a weathered lionel steamer from the MPC era with no sound, TMCC, or other modern electronic features on a highly detailed 3 rail layout and this very well could accurately describe hi rail. The equipment itself could be rather inexpensive and archaic, (the track could even be weathered, rusty tubular) but it would generally fit the layout theme, and the layout itself would look very realistic by 3 rail standards.
My point is there is a difference between collectors and true hi railers even though they are often grouped together today, although, yes there can be some overlap on occasion.
In the HO world, MTH seems to be attempting to market to the first group, their recent release of the aquarium car is evidence of this. I'm not knocking people that buy these items, but I don't consider that to be a sign of a hi rail epidemic. True hi-railers from O gauge aren't interested in these kinds of things, they may like sound and smoke, but strive as much as possible to keep their equipment and their layout from being viewed as 'flashy' for lack of a better word. They consider themselves no different than model railroaders only they prefer the weight and size of larger scale equipment. Its not really about nostalgia and a longing for the days of our grandfathers' operating accessories.
MTH has been focusing more on sound and less on detail, thats what draws me away from them, its not so much that they make the big, obscure engines like the triplex, its that their prices are so high for something so 'interactive'. And they put so much effort into their product update videos, yet their website is so atrocious. I think if they really had a great product in HO, they wouldn't need to attempt to dazzle us with their video advertisements, the engine would just sell.
Sheldon,
I'm grateful to have three good LHSes - all within a 1/2 hour drive of my house. All three still offer service, knowledge, and inventory and each has its strengths and emphasis to the hobby. For me, the "hands on" information and product comparison can not be beat when making purchases.
I realize that not everyone on the forum has this ability because of the lack of good LHSes in their area. I will continue though to give 80-90% of my MRRing monies to my LHS because I think they are worth supporting. The only exceptions that I make are on locomotive and DCC-related purchases off the Internet and Fast Track turnouts off eBay because of their availability and/or lack thereof from my LHS.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
trainsBuddyIsn't it what BLI already doing with FactoryDirectTrains? In all seriousness, as long as it's free market, enterprises such as distributors, hobby shops, train show dealers will exists if there is a demand for it. There appears to be less and less demand for local dealers it seems. Either it because of hobby shrinking or customer see not enough value brought by LHS for the markup they have to endure.
The value in the local store use to be service, knowledge of the hobby, and INVENTORY on hand to look at and decide first hand if you wanted it. As the selection of products grew in the 80's, shops that did not grow in size/scope lost this important feature. That shift dramaticly increased mail order and discounting long before the internet.
Bringing us right back to much that I have said about the LHS issue, without INVENTORY on hand, they serve much less of a useful purpose. I can order from home as easily as order from a local shop. Older more exprianced modelers may enjoy the LHS, but they likely need its other services (knowledge of the hobby, repairs, etc) much less. So without a full and attractive inventory why go there?
IRONROOSTER ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... If you are willing to buy enough, you can get those USRA Heavy Mountains I like so much (retail $175.00) for about $61.00 each. Walthers (or some other distributor who paid $61.00) will sell your shop one at a time for $96.25. But if you buy them direct, by the case, only paying $61.00 you can now retail them for $110.00 (38% off retail) and make 45% - a better markup then most shops made on stuff when everyone paid retail. THAT IS NOT DUMPING PRODUCT. If you run a store, and you know what I just explained, why would you buy that product from Walthers for $96.25 and try to sell it for $175.00 or even 10% off at $157.50? I have nine Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains, most bought from Star Hobby in Annapolis, walk in, pick one off the shelf, pay my $110.00. A few were picked up second hand but never run, about $75 each. Since the cutting out of the distributor thing has been going on for 3-4 decades now, you would think everyone would get the picture by now..... Sheldon So the next logical step is to cut out the hobby shop, internet dealer, train show seller, etc. and buy direct from the manufacturer for about $70-75 dollars - enough over the $61 to cover dealing with small customers and mailing onesy, twosy orders. Enjoy Paul
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... If you are willing to buy enough, you can get those USRA Heavy Mountains I like so much (retail $175.00) for about $61.00 each. Walthers (or some other distributor who paid $61.00) will sell your shop one at a time for $96.25. But if you buy them direct, by the case, only paying $61.00 you can now retail them for $110.00 (38% off retail) and make 45% - a better markup then most shops made on stuff when everyone paid retail. THAT IS NOT DUMPING PRODUCT. If you run a store, and you know what I just explained, why would you buy that product from Walthers for $96.25 and try to sell it for $175.00 or even 10% off at $157.50? I have nine Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains, most bought from Star Hobby in Annapolis, walk in, pick one off the shelf, pay my $110.00. A few were picked up second hand but never run, about $75 each. Since the cutting out of the distributor thing has been going on for 3-4 decades now, you would think everyone would get the picture by now..... Sheldon
...
If you are willing to buy enough, you can get those USRA Heavy Mountains I like so much (retail $175.00) for about $61.00 each. Walthers (or some other distributor who paid $61.00) will sell your shop one at a time for $96.25. But if you buy them direct, by the case, only paying $61.00 you can now retail them for $110.00 (38% off retail) and make 45% - a better markup then most shops made on stuff when everyone paid retail. THAT IS NOT DUMPING PRODUCT.
If you run a store, and you know what I just explained, why would you buy that product from Walthers for $96.25 and try to sell it for $175.00 or even 10% off at $157.50?
I have nine Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains, most bought from Star Hobby in Annapolis, walk in, pick one off the shelf, pay my $110.00. A few were picked up second hand but never run, about $75 each.
Since the cutting out of the distributor thing has been going on for 3-4 decades now, you would think everyone would get the picture by now.
So the next logical step is to cut out the hobby shop, internet dealer, train show seller, etc. and buy direct from the manufacturer for about $70-75 dollars - enough over the $61 to cover dealing with small customers and mailing onesy, twosy orders.
Enjoy
Paul
Paul, to some degree it has already come to that. Look at all the small manufacturers of various products in this hobby who sell direct to customers as their main means of distribution.
And, if the Athearn's and ConCor's of the world did not have some remaining dealer network to protect, they could/would lower prices since they too are already selling direct to the public on their web sites.
So are Walthers, and many others.
If the sales volume shifts to direct sales, then the manufacturers would have little incentive to protect the dealers and direct prices would drop. Factory Direct Trains proves this model already. BLI blows out stuff on there with no regard for other dealers.
But that will take quite a while yet, if ever. But I do think the trend to manufacturers all being their own distribution to dealers will continue and the few remaining traditional wholesalers will disapear.
And many small operations will welcome direct customers even more.
When I need stuff from Precision Scale, I order direct from them, its faster and easier since no local shop around here stocks any of their stuff.
Detail parts, scenery specalties, scratch building supplies and much more is already sold direct to a large degree.
IRONROOSTERSo the next logical step is to cut out the hobby shop, internet dealer, train show seller, etc. and buy direct from the manufacturer for about $70-75 dollars - enough over the $61 to cover dealing with small customers and mailing onesy, twosy orders.
Isn't it what BLI already doing with FactoryDirectTrains? In all seriousness, as long as it's free market, enterprises such as distributors, hobby shops, train show dealers will exists if there is a demand for it. There appears to be less and less demand for local dealers it seems. Either it because of hobby shrinking or customer see not enough value brought by LHS for the markup they have to endure.
But I think the issue of what's on the MR market is more complicated than you think. When a local hobby shop in Dallas closed it's doors last month (technically they just moved outside of metro area, technically..) I overheard a customer asking if Internet caused them to close their doors. And the owner honestly answered that it wasn't just the Internet - it was many things among them increased prices of models, lower margins - but the bottom line he said, if people kept buying from us we would've stayed. What it basically means, that even though people are vocal about small steam locos etc, bunch of manufacturers releases new Big Boys and Challengers and continue to stay in business. Unless their are on suicide mission, I would venture to say that if they see big locos not selling they would switch to making something else. It appears market has not been saturated yet...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...If you are willing to buy enough, you can get those USRA Heavy Mountains I like so much (retail $175.00) for about $61.00 each. Walthers (or some other distributor who paid $61.00) will sell your shop one at a time for $96.25. But if you buy them direct, by the case, only paying $61.00 you can now retail them for $110.00 (38% off retail) and make 45% - a better markup then most shops made on stuff when everyone paid retail. THAT IS NOT DUMPING PRODUCT. If you run a store, and you know what I just explained, why would you buy that product from Walthers for $96.25 and try to sell it for $175.00 or even 10% off at $157.50? I have nine Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains, most bought from Star Hobby in Annapolis, walk in, pick one off the shelf, pay my $110.00. A few were picked up second hand but never run, about $75 each. Since the cutting out of the distributor thing has been going on for 3-4 decades now, you would think everyone would get the picture by now.....Sheldon
dehusman,There is a major flaw in your theoretical case above. Namely, it's when you said, "Lets say that you know 10% of the market will buy a certain product..." This is impossible to know. No one can know that 10% of the market will buy anything. If they did, they'd make exactly the number needed and never have overruns or underruns.
Let's say that there was a way to know that 10% of the market will buy a model. Why doesn't the first manufacturer then make exactly that amount? Then you'd only ever have one copy of anything as every manufacturer would make exactly what the market wants all the time.
In reality, it's all a guessing game. Since no one knows how many Big Boys will sell, the only way to find out is to make them and sell them. If they sell out quick, make more. If they don't, sit on them for a while, then try again later. Sure, there are trends one can follow, but this can be defeated by a bad economy, a bad product error, less advertizing, or a similar product out from someone else that's better.
The manufacturers are betting that there are still more modelers interested in "big" & "popular" models than there are in "small" & "unpopular" models. Considering that they keep doing it seems to indicate that it's working for them.
Paul A. Cutler III
trainsBuddyBack to the original topic. I don't mind the availability of same model from multiple manufactures. In fact, I actually love it. It creates price competitiveness and drives the quality up. The market for this hobby is limited, and manufactures know it. I bet they like to release various models in phases to constantly have demand. Kind of reminds me how Disney releases its classic animations on video in batches and then puts them in the vault for extended time before releasing them again.
I don't know about price competition, I suspect it is not much of a consideration, except between retailers.
I don't see how in such a small market duplication of products helps the manufacturers and would improve profits.
Lets say the model market is 200,000 people. Lets say that you know 10% of the market will buy a certain product, that's 20,000 units. But 4 other manufacturers make the the same model, so you get 1/5 of the pie, that's only 4000 units. On the other hand you pick a niche procdut that appeals to only 2% of the market. That's 4,000 people. Since you are the sole maker of that product you get 100% of the sales, 4000 units. Net is that either way 4000 units are sold. Difference to the modeling community is that in the first case, you have 5 versions of the same piece of equipment, in the second you have two different pieces of equipment.
In my opinion the modeling community is better off in the second case.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
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andrechapelon A Heavy Pacific that is not a PRR K4 How's about something like this in plastic? http://psc1.virtualfocus.com/Erie%204-6-2%20K5.html Now that's a pretty Pacific and would fit right in with your roster. I'm surprised someone hasn't thought of doing it yet. It not only represents a well known prototype, but would fit right in on a layout whose loco roster was built around USRA engines. Andre
A Heavy Pacific that is not a PRR K4
How's about something like this in plastic?
http://psc1.virtualfocus.com/Erie%204-6-2%20K5.html
Now that's a pretty Pacific and would fit right in with your roster. I'm surprised someone hasn't thought of doing it yet. It not only represents a well known prototype, but would fit right in on a layout whose loco roster was built around USRA engines.
Andre
And the thing is with this one you'd still leave enough room in the pocketbook for a few 40' boxcars to round out the set!
I found at a local Goodwill a brass model a 4-6-2 USRA recently too--mmmm---dang--might want to look at this further----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Nicely done in die cast/plastic, for $250 or less (DC version), I'll take two or three in a heart beat!
Great choice Andre
UP 4-12-2My favorite train store, still actually a distributor for a few lines of product, has their computer linked to real time inventory at 5 or 6 distributors. If you the customer, via internet, phone, whatever, ask them about a product, you will have no idea if they have it physically right there or not--the screen they are seeing tells them who has it and how many they have at what price.
If he is buying from distributors, his prices are too high for me.
There are no distributors for Athearn, anyone selling Athearn has a Horizon account and is buying right from the source - all at the same price give or take a few single digit precentage points for volume or quick payment.
I buy all my Athearn form my LHS, because he can be just as competitive as Trainworld. I don't buy Bachmann from him because he does not buy it direct and cannot compete with Peach Creek or Star Hobby.
I buy Intermountain, ConCor, Bowser and Branchline from my LHS, again they distribute their own product, small and large dealers pay the same price, or at least VERY close to the same price, and he can be competitve.
Walthers, not to talk bad about them, but think about it, they buy that Bachmann Heavy Mountain for $61.00 and are not shy at all about asking $175.00 for it through their retail end. While Trainworld, Peach Creek, Star Hobby and a long list of others who also paid $61.00 from Bachmann are willing to sell it for $110.00, not to mention the 15 guys on Ebay. I'll bet you Star Hobby has sold more Bachmann in the last 15 years than Walthers has.
As for MB Klein, I live near them, have my whole life, I know Ted and some of his staff, Ted knew my late uncle who also ran a hobby shop in Baltimore years ago. Him and my uncle got their starts by offering "just in time" delivery of stuff they didn't stock, using Crammer Bros, a hobby wholesaler here in Baltimore back in the 50's. I bought trains in there back when Ted himself was the only one who handled the money. They are a good company, but they are not the giant in this business they once were. I don't shop there much any more, his new store location is not convenient to me, his prices, while good, are no longer the best. and while their inventory is still good, its not "complete" like it was years ago.
Back to my original point, without so much duplication, those resources could have been invested in items not yet made and could have expanded the market.
I will use myself as an example:
Currently I have about 120 locos and/or self propelled passenger units. I have a carefully constructed roster for the theme and operational goals of my layout. Several desired locos are missing from that roster - BUT nobody currently makes them, and many are even hard to find in brass, even if I was willing to spend that kind of per unit price.
So, I have money in my pocket that I can spend, BUT, I'm not going to buy another locomotive just to buy one. That money will only be spent on items NEEDED for the roster.
Of the available offerings that fit my needs, I am full up. Not spending any more on locos - UNLESS someone comes out with:
A nice Atlantic
A modern 4-6-0
A good running box cab diesel
Or even a Western Maryland Challenger
Just to name a few......
Any of these items might well get me to part with considerable amounts of money as I would likely buy two, three or more of each! Even at Bachmann discount prices of $100-$200, that could be a grand or two easy.
Mean while, I'm not buying a Big Boy at any price, no matter how many people make them, or how many lights they have, or how perfect the conductor's voice is.
Nor am I buying any K4's since I don't model the PRR, etc.
Another sign of a successful hobby shop is one that anticipates what their regular paying customers are looking for and have it on the shelf when they arrive. I've fallen victim to that tactic many times to Lin in lansdale PA. She keeps an eye on what you're buying and your usual visiting days and seems to very often have a loco or other item I just have to have.
Springfield PA
UP 4-12-2Also--regarding your comments about hobby shop owners apparently being not very smart and paying too much for trains--that seems a bit overly simplistic. It would not seem to fit the situations where a successive run was done at a lesser price (admittedly rare)--or worse yet--the much more common situation when companies (like Bachmann, since you seem to have them on a pedestal) chose to dump massive quantities of product at less than dealer cost. They just cut the legs out from under their dealers and cause them to be stuck with some product for years. The dealer never asked for or anticipated being taken advantage of like that--but it has happened all too often. Don't even get me started on the business practices of the brass importers either--I'm intimately familiar with their pricing tactics and the twice yearly "sales" for tax purposes.
John,
There is no evidence that Bachmann has EVER "dumped" product. Dumping product implies that you sold it at a price lower than you normally would have. Based on my sources, Bachmann does not/has not done that. Neither does Athearn.
What Bachmann does do, is sell wholesale to ANYONE able to buy case lots and buy a large enough total volume. And their wholesale price level is lower than the traditional discount of years ago. So, to use an example:
Last time I checked, most all the "fair trade" laws in this country had been ruled unconstitutional and Bachmann cannot prevent dealers from buying direct if they meet the critera and Bachmann cannot tell them what price to sell the product for.
Dumping product is when Broadway lowers the wholesale price another 20-25% AFTER selling most of the run at the higher price. They are the product dumpers.
Allow me to add my humble view on this issue of too much of the same stuff.
When I received my first copy of MR in 1969, I was amazed how very few manufacturers offered RTR locos. It was AHM/Rivarossi, Lifelike, a little bit of Athearn - a couple of Diesels, the ubiquitous Big Boy/Challenger, the IHB 0-8-0, the NKP Berkshire - not much more. The wide variety of steamers were offered by those brass importers. And, of course, those wonderful Bowser kits, if you happened to be a fan of the PRR.
Today we have Bachmann, Atlas Proto 1K, Proto 2K, Athearn, BLI, MTH - all competing with a lot of overlay in their product range in a small market. Variety has not increased much, at least this is the way I perceive it. It is in fact less, as brass has nearly disappeared.
So how many more SD40-2´s, SD70MAC´s, Big Boys, FEF-´s, Challengers, Y´s, GP38´s, Dash 8´s, F´s do we want to see?
At least Bachmann has a nice 4-6-0 and 4-4-0 !
I never advocated "pre-order" only.
Am only saying the state of the hobby today is different than before. Dealers who got burned with inventory in the past are now more cautious--and prefer a pre-order rather than stocking more than one or two of something.
I don't prefer that method, but it is reality.
John
Actually, JIT is working in the model railroad industry.
Plenty of dealers no longer have the stuff in stock but can get it in one or two days--and those dealers are moving plenty of product on Ebay and via the more traditional mail/phone order in a way that might shock people as to how seamless and efficient it is.
My favorite train store, still actually a distributor for a few lines of product, has their computer linked to real time inventory at 5 or 6 distributors. If you the customer, via internet, phone, whatever, ask them about a product, you will have no idea if they have it physically right there or not--the screen they are seeing tells them who has it and how many they have at what price.
The only confirmed exception I am aware of is M.B. Klein, who shows the prospective internet buyer exactly what they physically have in inventory in real time up to the minute.
To my knowledge, anybody else may be looking at what their distributor(s) have in inventory while talking to you.
So everyone should do it the same way--preorder everything, price themselves out of the market and mfg the same locomotives----- I think that it is a good thing there be someone doing it differently--even if it is a "Questionable" practice. Wow--what a choice for this small market then.
Lets be honest here--pre-order does not entice a lot of people into a market that appears to be soully for the benefit of the mfg. But then neither did overflooding the market --- so what to do? How about direct to market sales? I set up a website that ppl can order my product from and leave it at that? I could essentially cut out the LHS completely---which would be another spike in their heart...
I'm not too sure that just doing it any one way really is the answer--and maybe there really is no one answer--but a whole pile of little answers--
Sheldon--
You asked what I pay for the articulateds I've been buying...it all depends on which manufacturer it is. The last one I bought for 33% off retail, but that's an exception. It's usually not as great of a discount.
Also--regarding your comments about hobby shop owners apparently being not very smart and paying too much for trains--that seems a bit overly simplistic. It would not seem to fit the situations where a successive run was done at a lesser price (admittedly rare)--or worse yet--the much more common situation when companies (like Bachmann, since you seem to have them on a pedestal) chose to dump massive quantities of product at less than dealer cost. They just cut the legs out from under their dealers and cause them to be stuck with some product for years. The dealer never asked for or anticipated being taken advantage of like that--but it has happened all too often. Don't even get me started on the business practices of the brass importers either--I'm intimately familiar with their pricing tactics and the twice yearly "sales" for tax purposes.
Maybe some importers have changed their tactics in recent years--but some of the older "dumped" product is still out there for sale, getting dragged around to the train shows, unsold. However, the damage to the small dealers was done--and plenty are gone.
Your views are your views, and I'm not sure that this discussion will change them very much. Some of us may just have to agree to disagree.
Back to the original topic. I don't mind the availability of same model from multiple manufactures. In fact, I actually love it. It creates price competitiveness and drives the quality up. The market for this hobby is limited, and manufactures know it. I bet they like to release various models in phases to constantly have demand. Kind of reminds me how Disney releases its classic animations on video in batches and then puts them in the vault for extended time before releasing them again.
As far as business, 90% don't last 5 years as very few take the time to realy understand the business they pick. In my business of being a landlord it is very hard to lose long term but I have seen more fail at it than not. What dose that have to due with the train business you ask, the same good business practices apply to both. Customer service that means something. in other words if you don't know what I am into, then ask. Business for the most part is long term, if you are not planning ten years out then you are not planning (yes things change and you adjust but you always look ten years or more out), in other words "adapt or die". Actually most successful people in life plan 10 years out, whatever success means to you! Plan for things going wrong, A prenup for those getting married! Do something the others are not or can't do, know a small hobby shop owner that has a sideline of building layouts, even has a full time crew, guess where they buy most of their material!
blownout cylinder This is interesting--maybe we are arguing over specific localities LHS's rather than a general overview of it? The ones I have around here seem to have NO problem at all with oversupply of Bachmann locomotives---they seem to have an undersupply here--due to the popularity of it-- John---I am wondering why there should be a problem in oversupply if the LHS is having issues keeping them in stock. Why should everything be done in the pre-order route anyways? I am not surprised that the cost of the storage of these things has become an issue---this is due to the problem of the bean counter having the attitude of everything being a cost--to the point that we now have internet based "stores" being run in the basement of a house wherein the stock has to be ordered from Walthers or Horizon then you may finaly get it--mmmmm---kind of useful here--
This is interesting--maybe we are arguing over specific localities LHS's rather than a general overview of it? The ones I have around here seem to have NO problem at all with oversupply of Bachmann locomotives---they seem to have an undersupply here--due to the popularity of it--
John---I am wondering why there should be a problem in oversupply if the LHS is having issues keeping them in stock. Why should everything be done in the pre-order route anyways? I am not surprised that the cost of the storage of these things has become an issue---this is due to the problem of the bean counter having the attitude of everything being a cost--to the point that we now have internet based "stores" being run in the basement of a house wherein the stock has to be ordered from Walthers or Horizon then you may finaly get it--mmmmm---kind of useful here--
But everything is a cost, Barry. The real problem with beancounters is that they're blind to the aspects of business that don't readily fit onto balance sheet or profit & loss statement. Or, to put it more succinctly, they don't understand the non-quantitative aspects of business. Of course, there is another side to that, the people who haven't a clue as to business finances, but that's another topic.
As for the basement Internet stores, they're trying to run those in a similar manner to the just-in-time inventory systems of some of the larger and more famous manufacturers (Toyota comes to mind here) where stuff comes into one end of the bulding and exits the building (as cars in Toyota's case). Problem is, JIT doesn't work with the relatively low volume and fluctuating demand patterns of the model railroad market (actually a lot of little sub-markets, but that's a topic for another time).
Minimizing inventory carrying costs has been a goal in retail for quite a while. Wal-Mart's pretty good at it. Stuff comes into one of their distribution centers and is almost immediately routed to stores that are just about to run out of this, that or the other but for the just-in-time arrival of a shipment. WMT has decades of experience fine-tuning their distribution channel. Unfortunately, demand in our hobby is lumpy and low volume and is not predictable to the degree that high volume turnover is. It's too bad, but that's the way it is. Some hobby shops are saddled with a type of inventory one wag labeled "FISH" (first in, still here). Even the really good ones have some FISH inventory, they're just better at minimizing it than others.
In a perfect world, someone would announce a new product that I can't live without with a target arrival date 6 months down the line. I would order one and start saving my money for it at a rate that would allow me to pay for it in 6 months when it was due. At the end of six months I would call my local dealer to see if the item had arrived and, upon being told it was being unpacked as we speak, would rush down to get it. I would pay my dealer and walk off with this wondrous thing. My dealer would not have to even put the thing on display and would have the cash to pay his supplier immediately under standard commercial terms (i..e 2% 10, net 30). Life would be beautiful and there would be smiles all around. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.
You know Sheldon, I went back to your original post, and I don't think that there is any discussion or points that will give you a satisfactory answer.
I've not been in the hobby business directly so frankly, I'm not going to comment on the changes over the last 30 years since every industry has changed in the last 30 years and as can be seen in a variety of businesses from car dealers to grocers to gas/service stations, the game has changed. Successful businessmen adapt and overcome.
As for the original premise, I got that same email from Trainworld. I even looked online at trainworldonline.com. My personal opinion was that although the K-4 was tempting, it still wasn't worth dropping $200+ on given that it's unlettered, I have 4 Bachmann K-4's already, and I'm using those as my "test" work for installing sound/DCC. If I wanted another K-4, I could buy and install the sound card for about $120 with a $65.00 base K-4 from Bachmann. Gross we're talking about an equivalent expenditure of money. It's a split decision there on my end.
As for the E-units they had on sale, I looked at those and none of the road names are one's I remotely model or were undecorated. I have enough "projects" so I don't view dropping $110.00 on one of the A-units, stripping the paint, repainting, and retailing to be a good use of my money. If one matched my road names modeled, or even remotely ran near my modeled roads, I'd be tempted.
Some of the things you are stating are a Catch-22 in terms of not liking the "Hi-Rail" aspect of the hobby but none of the items left, except 1 K-4 and 2 N&W J's seem to fit into the Lionel Hi-Rail type of modeling. Instead, they were obscure names like Gulf Mobile or undecorateds.
I'm aware of Trainworld but frankly, I've never ordered from them. I tried to check whether they had an item in stock some time ago, got some bad customer service, and I've never bothered calling back. You'll notice though, that MB Klein is out of their K-4's the last time I looked, for both Bachmann and BLI. Just some more food for thoughts from one modeler to another. All of us have our opinions but each opinion is neither right nor wrong.