decal issues

[FreightTrainBlues]

Trying to learn to airbrush and decal models but somehow I still cant get it right.

 Here's what I did:

- boxcar: Polly Scale acrylic boxcar red, baggage car: Floquil Pullman green (enamel mixed with 1/16th red and 1/16th yellow to try to warm it up but that's another topic)

- thoroughly de-greased paint surface

- soaked decals in demineralized water (I assume this is - practically -the same as distilled?)

- thoroughly rubbed off glue of decal film before drying

- repeated servings of micro sol 

- plenty of holes punched in decal film where air seemed to be trapped

- dullcote finish

Obviously, something is still amiss - but what??

 Rik

 

 

 

 

[CNJ831]

Well, Rik, the current finish on that baggage and boxcar looks extremely dull, suggesting that the surface is likely very rough on a minute scale, or it might be just due to the dullcote. This situation is critical in answering your question, but then there's no way of telling what the finish was before that application. Decals won't set properly on such a surface. Likewise, I don't see any mention in your post, or visual indications in the photo, of you applying any gloss coat over the paint finish before applying the decals. A very smooth surface is required for good decal setting. I know that some hobbyists don't gloss coat their acrylic-based paint jobs, but then I see a lot of poor paint and decal jobs, too. The sheen under parts of your decals is a clear sign of them not adhering properly to the painted surface, so the first approach to correct this in my opinion would be to apply a gloss coating to your model and start the decaling process over.

Incidentally, I've been at this hobby at the craftsman's level for decades and never used anything but tap water for wetting my decals and get perfect results every time, so your problem(s) certainly isn't there.

CNJ831

[FreightTrainBlues]

 Thanks for your quick reply! Yes I was considering a gloss coat, but wouldn't the decals seem to float over the paint? Which paints do you use for Pullman green and boxcar red?

[dehusman]

FreightTrainBlues

- boxcar: Polly Scale acrylic boxcar red, baggage car: Floquil Pullman green (enamel mixed with 1/16th red and 1/16th yellow to try to warm it up but that's another topic)

 

Right here you missed a critical step.  You need to gloss coat your models or use a glossy paint.  Applying decals over a flat surface often leaves a sheen.

-- soaked decals in demineralized water (I assume this is - practically -the same as distilled?)

- thoroughly rubbed off glue of decal film before drying  

I never do either of those.  I dip the decal in water to wet the paper, then remove it from the water.  I let it sit for a few minutes to separate from the paper.  Then I slide it from the paper to the model.

 - repeated servings of micro sol 

- plenty of holes punched in decal film where air seemed to be trapped

I use Walthers Solvaset

- dullcote finish

If you still had air gaps, why would you Dullcoat it?  That makes it very, very difficult to fix.

Root problem:  No gloss coat and you are soaking your decals too long.

[FreightTrainBlues]

 Yes both were already quite dull - satin at the most - before the dullcoat

[dehusman]

FreightTrainBlues

 Yes I was considering a gloss coat, but wouldn't the decals seem to float over the paint?

That's the whole point.

Which paints do you use for Pullman green and boxcar red?

For gloss coat I use Futurre acrylic floor finish.  You can get a quart for about $10.  Or use Floquil Glosscoat.  For a dull coat I use Tamaiya Flat base mixed about 1 part flat to 4 or 5 parts Future.

[FreightTrainBlues]

 Thanks, Dave. The air gaps were gone or practically gone after all the solva-setting, only to return later after the dullcoat.

Which paints do you use for Pullman green and boxcar red (or boxcar brown, for that matter)? Do you use dul paints and gloss coat or gloss paints paints to start with? The latter seems better but it seems I cant find any good gloss colors.

[CNJ831]

FreightTrainBlues

 Thanks for your quick reply! Yes I was considering a gloss coat, but wouldn't the decals seem to float over the paint? Which paints do you use for Pullman green and boxcar red?

You definitely should use a gloss coating on your models before applying decals. I use a Floquil high gloss finish on mine. The finish is applied only to the degree that it produces a nice shiny surface. Thus, it's just filling in any roughness in the paint surface with a coating probably only a few thousandth of an inch thick. It won't make the decals appear to be "above" the surface of the paint.

I've worked with Floquil lacquer based paints forever, but with care you can get just as good results from the more modern acrylics. Mostly I use the colors straight out of the bottle, but do my own mixing of colors for weathering. Below you can see a close-up of a decal application on one of my engines. That's the way well applied decals are supposed to look; no sheen, no visible edges, just as if part of the model itself. Notice how the decal settled down even over the rivets.

CNJ831

 

[FreightTrainBlues]

 beautiful, CNJ. Feels like I'm just one step away from assembling my dream consists. Too bad of those BCK decals. Oh well. That NKP lettering seemed too large anyway. Will drop a picture once my next project is done.

[dehusman]

I used to use Floquil laquer, now mostly Pollyscale Acrylics, but have used other acrylic brands.

About the only glossy paints I know of are Scalecoat and Testor's enamels.  Pretty much everything else dries flat or semigloss. 

[maxman]

FreightTrainBlues

The air gaps were gone or practically gone after all the solva-setting, only to return later after the dullcoat.

"Practically gone" is not the same as "gone".  I have this problem myself, and I've found that there is no way that the dullcoating process will improve the appearance.  If that stuff you see is there before dullcoating, it will still be there later.  Next time you decal, make sure you use a strong light when you do your inspection.  And look at the work from multiple angles.

Concerning the model's finish prior to decalling, yes you need a gloss finish.  Some will say differently, but look at it this way.  If you put two perfectly clean pieces of glass together, there will be a slight suction effect when you try to separate them.  Put a little lumpy stuff betweeen the pieces, and you can separate the pieces easily.  If you don't have a gloss finish, what you really have is the lumpy surface.

Concerning water, I use distilled.  Distilled is not the same as demineralized.  Since I'm buying the gallon of water for the decalling anyway, I get the distilled.  I don't use tap water.  Depending on where you live that water might be hard, soft, or have other acceptable for drinking but not good for decalling stuff in it.

On the subject of how long to soak the decals, and whether or not all the "glue" should be removed, different people have different opinions.  However, if you read the instructions that come with the decals you'll see that some decal makers will tell you to do it one way, and some will tell you to do it the other.  There was a how to decal article in MR many years age where the author decalled two cars using both methods and got equally good results.

Another thing that has not been mentioned, but which I also have trouble with, is the paint surface prior to decalling.  And this would be the finish prior to the gloss application.  If you don't apply the paint properly, particularly if it is drying before it hits the model, you will be left with a rough surface finish even if you are using a glossy paint.  If you want to experiment, get yourself a scrap car and apply the paint.  When the paint is dry, run your finger over it.  If you feel something that kind of feels like a very fine sandpaper, that will give you an idea of the actual surface roughness.  And this roughness will not be visible to the eye.

Good luck and regards.

[dstarr]

OK, the decal isn't sticking to the paint.  How old were the decals?  I feel decals loose at lot of stick-to-it-tiveness after a couple of years lying aroung the hobby shop or your own decal storage location.  Then I don't understand your description of soaking decals and rubbing off the glue from the decal film.  

  Here's what I do.  I drop the decal into a saucer of tap water for about a minute.  As soon as the decal loosens from the paper backing (there is a slidy feel to it) I take it from the water and lay it flat on the car side.  If you leave the decal in the water too long the glue washes away and the decal won't stick.  Then slide the decal off the paper backing and  position it just right. Blot up any excess water, lest the decal float away from where it is supposed to be.

I seldom have trouble with air bubbles, but it you do, puncture them and pat the decal down flat while it's still good and moist.  

  Once the decal is in the right spot, and sorta, just a little bit dry, dry enough that it's not going to move, apply Solvaset.  I have never used Microsol, and some folks say it's less aggressive than Solvaset.  The purpose of the decal setting solution is to soften the decal film so it can snuggle down around rivets and such.  Once setting fluid is applied, don't move the decal, the softened film will stretch or tear or both.  

I have had excellent results putting decals onto flat paint. I never bother to apply a separate gloss coat. Not everyone agrees with me on this. I use red auto primer in a rattle can for boxcar red and decal right over it.  The auto primer is an ultra flat paint.  Decals love it. I look for a little moistness in the freshly sprayed paint.  If the paint dries in the air and hits the car dry you get a rough pebbly finish which decals don't like so much.  Allow the paint to dry overnight before decaling.  Drying paint releases "stuff" to the air, it's that new paint smell.  If the "stuff" is trapped under a decal bad things may happen.  

The last coat of DullCote is merely to kill the sheen of the decal film and blend it into the paint.  DullCote will not fix decals that are not sticking.  If the decal isn't sticking, DullCote won't do anything to make it stick better.  I only use genuine DullCote.  I tried a hardware store rattle can of something else once, and it make the decals crinkle up.  DullCote is a solvent based finish, you don't want to spray it on too thickly, lest it too crinkle the decals.

 

[modelmaker51]

 I think David and I have had this discussion before, so here's my take:

You can also use Polyscale's Clear Gloss. You don't need a super glossy finish, a satinny/semi gloss finish will do ya, so just a few light coats.

 Dip the decal in water, (plain tap water is fine unless you have really hard water with a high calcium content), set it on the work surface and wait about a minute or two until the decal has loosened from the paper. Pre-wet the area to be decalled with a couple of drops of water and apply the decal. I find it easier to carry the decal on the paper to the model and then slide it off and push it into position. Use the edge of a  paper towel or Q-tip to siphon off the excess water. I like to let the decal dry before adding the Microsol (or Solvaset) so the soft decal doesn't get bumped or distorted. Allow to dry, then add more Microsol, repeat this untill all the airpockets are gone, usually 3 - 5 times, (depending on the decal), If there are stubborn air bubbles, slice them with a fresh sharp blade and apply more Microsol. When you're done decalling, wash the model with a little detergent and water to remove stains from the setting solution and any fingerprints, etc and then you can seal the model with a flat coat or two, (if a flat finish is what is desired), again I like the Polyscale clear finishes and use their Clear Flat.

BTW: It's not glue that makes the decal stick to the surface, The glue that is used is a special water soluable formula to hold the decal to the paper and yet release the decal from the paper when it is wet. It is ok to rinse the decal or let it float off in the water, it's just harder to control and manipulate. Decals stick due to a molecular bond created by solftening the decal with setting solutions.

[FreightTrainBlues]

 Thanks Jay for yet another routine. So there's absolutely no worry about residual glue under the decal after sliding from the backing paper on the model. Good to know. I just bought two bottles of gloss coat, (a water - and a thinner-based) can't wait to get going.

[gmcrail]

 Here's a picture of one of my boxcars:

 

All lettering is done with decals. Here's my procedure:

Degrease:  Wash thoroughly , using a soft-bristle paint brush and a good dishwashing detergent (I use Dawn). Air dry completely.

Paint:  Floquil Boxcar Red (dry one day).

Glosscoat:  Floquil Crystal-Cote (let dry 1 day)

Decals:  Cut decals out, dip in water, set aside to separate (can take as long as a minute).  While they are sitting, apply Microscale's Micro-Set to the area to be decaled.  Slide decal onto the Micro-Set, and gently prod into final position, using a #0 or #1 round artists brush (preferably red sable).   Let dry completely.  Then apply Walthers Solvaset.  Again, let dry completely.  Note:  DO NOT touch the decal itself when applying the Solvaset.  Doing so can destroy the decal.  Check for air bubbles, puncture any found with the tip of a NEW Xacto #11 blade, and re-apply Solvaset.

Glosscoat:  Another light coat of the gloss finish, to even out the surface texture. Let dry 1 day.

Dull coat:  Floquil Flat Finish. 

 

 Turned out rather well, IMHO... :-)