Lee
one extra cause for derailments i've prevented for many years on both hand-laid and pre-fab track is horizontal mis-alignment of the rail ends at joints. the solution is to chamfer the ends of the rail at all joints. it only takes a few moments to make 2 or 3 swipes with a file (an auto-parts points file works really well) on the gage side of the rail or rails. then connect to the other rail and start spiking/gluing/pinning. -big duke
trainnut57 . I was of the schooling that the curves had to have a certain amount of super elevation.
. I was of the schooling that the curves had to have a certain amount of super elevation.
Super elevation is not necessary on the model and it can be tricky to get the transitions in and out of it right, causing many more problems than it solves. Some people choose to add it for appearance, but absolutely not needed for reliable operation.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Mechanically a six axle diesel will traverse 18" radius curves. You are however stretching the models limits. Under these conditions your track has to be perfect in all respects. Their can't be any lumps or bumps at all. A good primmer for your track work would be the old video that MR did on TV about 20 years ago. The host was Lorel Joyner (I hope I got the spelling right). At the end of the program, I went down stairs and started relaying all of my track. The end result has been smooth operation every since.
There could be problems with gauge, too. It is probably better for the two rails to be half a mm further apart than right on the gauge for the scale than to be at gauge, but it depends on what's having to make its way through the curves and how tight the curve is. It should be clear that for a six axle truck to slip easily through an 18" radius curve, there must be a lot of sideplay in the truck bearings, or else the wheels are guaged just a hint tight, or the rails are gauged generously along the curve. Granted, no one of these is ever a given, I'm just saying that the manufacturers have to figure out something so that they don't get 70% of an engine or car run back because they don't work as advertised.
Superelevation is purely cosmetic in our small scales, but it really adds to the gee-whiz factor if it is done just right....meaning eased into and out, just like grades, and not so much of it that it looks contrived. The easing should begin at about the same place the azimuthal easement takes place into a horizontal curve. Each one of these represents an linear acceleration, and not the abrupt change that sectional track elements would impart, along with the abrupt acceleration out of tangential motion.
It's one of the many things most of us have to learn by doing, by trial and error, and to be willing to fiddle with when we get new equipment to run on the rails. Has happened to me many times. And I have never failed to get it ironed out. Cost me a ripped up 3' length of nicely ballasted and weathered flex track a year ago, but I don't regret it today.
-Crandell
I am from the old school and do things the hard way, so I am told some times. I have over 500 ' of brass flex track with fiber ties on my layout. Mainly because I was told that I could not use DCC with brass track. WRONG ! ! No roadbed. Track is laid directly to the base board. The only time I have used an easement is if there is a problem with the cross level of the track and I needed to raise the outside rail to keep things rolling and on top of the rails. I do however firmly believe in using easements both entering and exiting the curves. The super elevation looks neat but must be done perfectly or it causes more problem that you bargain for.
I agree with just about everything said but I do have one question. I was of the schooling that the curves had to have a certain amount of super elevation. If this is not necessarily so it may explain a problem I am encountering on a new turnout where NOTHING stays on the track-locomotive or freight car. So I guess I'm actually asking as to whether or not curves should be level flat or slightly banked. Any debate?
My feeling is for turns 24" radius and under is to use the Snap-Track. Too easy with flex track to get a part of it a little too tight, and then stuff falls off.
One end of my basement table I had laid with flex track to 18" radius (I thought).
The inner loop on the other end I used 18" Snap Track on.
I was able to get certain cars around the Snap-Track, but they fell off on the flex. I relaid the turn with Snap Track and the problem went away.
I do make sure the track is level, or the outside rail is slightly elevated. On the Snap Track I solder it all together, to avoid problems with it coming loose, or losing electrical conductivity.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
Thanks all. Since I was trying out the layout to see if it would be what I want I should expect these gliches. I am now more seriously thinking about going with more flex track esp in the curved areas which will someday be my mountain range. Maybe also I should see less problems once I get the roadbed laid.
As already mentioned, perfection, perfection when laying sharp curves.There is one other thing I have come across. Even with rail joiners engaged properly the height of the rails may not match exactly. I lay a flat piece of steel on the rails and slide it down the track both ways to see if it catches at the joints. Then make sure the rail tops are exact. My SD7, heavy weight coaches, and the 2-6-6-2 brought that to my attention.
Good luck.
I actually have compound curves which in essence are sharper than 18" and my F45 goes around them OK with a step clearance. The biggest hassle I have had is to make sure that the track is in gauge and that there are no bumps or very slight misalignments in the rail join areas.
The "intermittent" problem that you have is more than likely caused by what I would a describe like harmonic effect as the loco runs over the joint, the flange hits the joint at a given point of its shape or misshape and the rail gets picked and the wheels ride up, causing the derailment. A dip in the track exacerbates the occurrence.
I use Flex track almost exclusively but if you are using sectional track could you substitute a small piece of flex track between your last straight so that your locos truck "leads in" with a wider radius start? Using sectional track, you would lift the last 6" section of straight and the first curve and make a larger radius between the two end points.
My flex track is Peco and it can get out of gauge so check that your track is in gauge. This can happen even on sectional track where the track is pinned and causes the rails to cant inwards very slightly... it does not have to be much. Use spikes like you would with handlaid track through the plastic sleepers and recheck the gauge outwards.
As everyone else has said, the tighter your radius, the more exact you have to be but it can be done.
Good luck from Down Under,
Trevor
www.xdford.digitalzones.com for your interest
President Melton Model Railway Club www.meltonmrc.org.au
UncBob Don't mean to be a wise guy but why didn't you get the 4 axle units ?
Don't mean to be a wise guy but why didn't you get the 4 axle units ?
The OP bought a SDP35 which is a 6-axle diesel.
Alton Junction
You probably have some places where the outside rail of your curved track is lower than the inside rail, causing the outer-front wheel to slide above the outside rail. Check to see if the problem happens in the same spot(s). Look closely at the track 'cause it may be really tough to see.
- Douglas
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
I have to agree with you on the track/wheel gage check. I had problems with my Big Boy on 36" radius track and especially through a 36" radius turnout. Turns out the pilot wheels and half of the tender wheels were out of guage, and once I reset them, the problems went away.
Track work is critical and must be as good as you can get it, but don't overlook the wheels, even on a new engine/car.
Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Part of the problem is that Atlas doesn't advertise the minimum radius, or if they do it's not obvious. Broadway limited does on their website under each product. I have about 7 of the Atlas Golds that run great but I do have 22" min radius.
Springfield PA
IVRWMost locomotives are made to run on an 18r curve. I wouldn't expect a RTR 6 axle to be any different.
Oh, but they are, and the more coupled drivers on a steamer, the worse it gets. Think in terms of rigid wheelbase. Each axle added to a rigid frame extends the differentiation between the mean track level and the plane through which the axles pass. But don't take my word for it, or the OP's...let the trains do the talking. And that's what this thread is about...trains doing the talking.
gandydancer19 I NEVER EVER fasten my track with track nails as this can pull it down and out of shape which can lead to derailments.
I NEVER EVER fasten my track with track nails as this can pull it down and out of shape which can lead to derailments.
It can? LOL. I wish I had read this 7 years ago. I laid my track on top of WS Foam Track Bed on top of plywood and nailed it down, then ballasted. I had derailments forever even on 32" radius curves because of the unevenness caused by nailing. Finally, a few months ago, after my whining about derailments, one of our fellow forumites told me, "Fix the hump". I did and the derailments ceased.
Rich
~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
As radius decreases, the quality of track laying must increase.
For a 6 axle loco to work flawlessly on 18" radius curves, you must lay the most perfect track you can. Any bump will cause trouble. As radius increases, the margin for error does as well.
However, there is one other thing to check, get out an NMRA gauge and check all the wheelsets and verify they are in gauge.
A good habit to have is to assume everything you buy was put together roughly and that it is out of gauge, because it probably is.
I had a recently purchased BB Athearn SD40T-2 that was derailing on my clubs very broad curves and occasionally on a switch. It was caused by a couple of the wheel sets being out of gauge. I had taken it straight from the swap meet to the club. Now it runs much much better.
This has been my way of describing how to think about engines and curve radius in any scale:
The closer you are to the minimums claimed by any of the manufacturers for a particular engine, the higher the probability of frustrating moments. As you force the equipment to get to its engineered lower limits (with variances in finish and assembly), you raise the effect on performance of other errors that would normally not be a problem. So, as Sir Madog quite rightly says, while 18" may be okay with really solid and careful trackwork, tiny imperfections become that much more the defining matter...and the engine gets to choose how it will behave, not you.
Make sure your track joints maintain grade. One rail dipping or rising, and especially on curves (and I'm trying to make you see it triply especially on the minimal radius curves!) will cause many flanges to rise up over the outer rail, and the rest is easy to anticipate. The problem is that the rigid frame and the other truck coming to the derailment spot are wanting to keep the engine's former attitude with respect to the track's axis. This makes the leading truck able to do a lot of wandering when trackwork is less than 'good'. Six wheeled trucks are a lot worse.
Please, do yourself a favour and figure out how to get another 2" of radius, more if you can manage. And check your tracks for level 12" on either side of the derailment location, and all points in between.
Laying smooth and level track is an art and takes time. I run mostly four axle locomotives but also have one SD9. I haven't had any trouble with it on 18 inch curves, of which I have many.
I am using WS foam roadbed and gluing the roadbed and track down with clear latex caulk. I pin the sides of the track to hold it to form, and set some weights on the track to hold it until the caulk dries. I NEVER EVER fasten my track with track nails as this can pull it down and out of shape which can lead to derailments. You have to let the track flow and float some. As long as it is secured first, the ballast will take care of any gaps between the track and roadbed. If you try and force the track to lat flat on uneven roadbed, you will have problems.
I am not saying that is your problem, but it is a good starting place to look at.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
A 18" radius is tight for a six-axle Diesel, but it should be able to negotiate it slowly, without derailing. If there is a bump in the track, that could very well be the cause. If you have a chance to go for a bigger radius, do it - you will have less problems.
My layout is mostly 18" curves with some 15" on inner city run. I recently purchased an Atlas Gold SDP35 and am having trouble with it staying on the tracks. I know it doesn't like the 15" but thought it wouldn't be such an issue with at least the 18" curves. It will make the rounds ok most of the times but occasionally either the front axle or the rear most axle will be off track. Now I am wondering if this is due to my layout not being a 100% level while under construction phase or would I be further ahead to make a run with 21" curves?