The Drill Track

[richhotrain]

steinjr

And Rich - my apologies for hijacking your thread. Your yard also looks good.

 Smile,
 Stein

Stein,

Not at all.  No problem. 

This thread totally fascinates me.  Thanks to all who have contributed.

Rich

[steinjr]

dehusman

While I have had to make huge compromises to fit stuff in, I think I have
been successful in faithfully replicating the general feel and position of
the tracks and industries.

 I'd say so! Thank you very much for the guided tour of the railroad at Wilmington - both in real life and on your layout!

 And Rich - my apologies for hijacking your thread. Your yard also looks good.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[richhotrain]

dehusman

Rich, I bet its really fun to watch a train snake out of the yard through both sets of crossovers.

Dave,

It really is.  It was dicey at first until I got the track work right, but once I did that, it became a lot of fun.

When I first constructed this layout, the guys at the LHS wanted me to use double slips to eliminate the S-curve issues, but consecutive crossovers work fine.

Rich

[dehusman]

Well for some reason it didn't take the link the aerial phot of Wilmington and won't let me edit the message so here is the photo:

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p268001uw&CISOPTR=3659&CISOBOX=1&REC=19

[dehusman]

Rich, I bet its really fun to watch a train snake out of the yard through both sets of crossovers.

[dehusman]

steinjr

In particular, I really like the Maryland Avenue part - a very nice use
of that shortish wall segment. How long is the part the Maryland Avenue
tracks are on - about 2 1/2 feet?

More or less.  It actually sticks out almost 3 feet, but there is an
angled portion that makes the flat 30 inches or less.

You mention team track, freight house and three industries. I can only
see two industries from the angle the photo has been taken. One at the end
of the track behind the team track, and one  at the end of the second
track in the front of the freight house. Or is the building in the
foreground (at the end of the team track) also a rail served industry?

 

 The industry in the rear very end is a leather dealer , F.
Blumenthal, (leather was a big industry in Wilmington), next to it is a
Swift Meat distributor.  The building in the foreground is a lumber
dealer.  The track along the foreground is the team track (or "public
track" as they were called).

Here is an aerial photo from the 1930's of the  Maryland Ave area.  The
railroad arcing through the picture is the PRR main line between New York
and Washington.  The RDG and B&O run on either side of the PRR at ground
level.  The "roundhouse" isn't a round house, its the old car shop for
H&H, it didn't handle locomotives, only passenger cars up to about WW1. If
you look closely to the left of the car shop and PRR, you can see several
tracks curving away to industries.  The building just above the cut of
cars is the freight house and the little white building at the upper left
corner of the freight house is the W&N HQ building.The large buildings in
the lower right corner is the Blumenthal plant.  Almost hidden above and
to the left of it is Lindsey Bros lumber and the Swift building.  The
roundhouse area is about a 1/2 mile to the right, out of the picture.  The
industries along the Christiana River, between the PRR and the river are
the ones served by the King St lead.

While I have had to make huge compromises to fit stuff in, I think I have
been successful in faithfully replicating the general feel and position of
the tracks and industries.

Like the way you can spot two tracks of cars in front of the freight
house, so you can spot up to 4 cars for the freight house.

Actually the two tracks will hold 6 cars.

Trying to orient myself - the fourth track from the left (ie directly to
the right of the engine facility) is the runner, with the fifth track
being what up by the yard throat is the main.  Is Wilmington conceptually
at the end of the line for your railroad, so the main (for your railroad)
ends there?

From left to right :
Coaling track
Roundhouse lead
Roundhouse lead
Runner
Main
Interchange lead

Nice (and interesting) crossover arrangement between the runner/Maryland
Avenue freight house track/station track one and the main/station track 2.
Makes it possible for one operator to rearrange a passenger train for
departure from station track 2 while someone else is switching Maryland
Avenue, and still is flexible enough to allow one passenger train to
arrive on one track while another is ready to depart on the other track.
Nice work!

There are a pair of lapped switches that I just need to break down and
replace with a double slip.

Are those freight cars in the pictures mostly 40-foot cars, or were cars
shorter in 1905? How long are the passenger cars - about 60 scale feet?
Looks like a railroad it would be fun to operate on!

1900 era cars range from 30 to 36 ft mostly, 34 ft was most common.  There
were 40 ft cars, and few 50's, they were mostly furniture or carriage
cars, the "high cubes" or "auto racks" of the TOC era.

I have finished temporary track on the rest of the layout and connected it
to the last remaining 1950 era town from the previous layout (about a year
from now I will rip that out and replace that with the "new" 1900
Birdsboro).  That will allow me to begin formal operations soon.

I realize that I am being greedy now, but I hope you will (when
you can find the time) share with us some more pics, like of the staging
area behind the wall, and maybe a little description of a little part of
an operating session on your railroad in this area.

The area behind the backdrop is pretty scary right now.  It kinda collects
a lot of odds and ends.

The change in track plan from 1950 era to 1900 era was to accommodate the
feeling of a crew actually running a turn (which is how the W&N operated).
I want a crew to get a engine , take it to the train, run, turn the
engine, put the caboose on the other end, run back , take the engine to
the house for fuel and water, then do it again.  Current operation is
planned to have a Wilmington yard engine and then a "city job" that works
the downtown area.  First iteration will have 2 road crews, one passenger
and one freight that make turns from Wilmington to Birdsboro and return.
The passenger trains will have to pick up and set out express cars and
change consists between runs.  The freight trains will do local work at
Birdsboro and 3 places on line.  Right now the idea is to make the psgr
trains first class and the freights 2nd class.  I will suspend superiority
by direction so I can run the whole operation without a dispatcher or
orders.  The freight crew will have one engine and one caboose and will
have to use that set for all their trains.  Trains will be limited to 8
cars (primarily because I only have about 100 cars on the layout.)

Future state is to have a yard engine at Wilmington and Coatesville, a
city job at Wilmington, a "mole" staging switch at Reading, a local crew
and 2 road crews, plus a dispatcher.  Trains will have a car limit of 2x
the number of engine drivers (4-4-0 = 8 cars, 4-6-0 = 12 cars, 2-8-0 = 16
cars.)  Loaded cars of coal, rock, ore, or pig iron and loaded tank cars
will count as 1 1/2 cars.  Operation by CC&WB, TT&TO based on the 1903 P&R
rule book.

[richhotrain]

Motley

Rich, that is a very impressive layout, I really like it!! And the yard looks good too.

How do you reach the back part of your layout? Any reach length issues? I see you use ground throws for the switches?

I noticed your rails are brass colored, what kind of track/switches are you using?

Thanks,

Michael

Michael,

Thank you so much, I appreciate your kind words. 

The layout looks better than it photographs, or maybe I am just a poor photographer.  The coloring in the photos appears a little different than in person.  The track is actually Atlas Code 83 Super-Flex nickel-silver rail.  I don't know if it is my fluorescent lighting, but it does look like brass in the photograph.  The turnouts are Atlas Custom-Line Code 83, mostly #6, but some #4 for the sidings and coaling tower.  The yard ladder and the crossovers are all #6 turnouts.

I actually use Tortoises, for the most part to control the switches.  There are some manual ground throws (Caboose Industries) that are used to control the turnouts on the sidings.  In that first photo, the two ground throws at the bottom of the photo control the siding with the tank cars on it and the industrial siding running parallel to the A/D (drill) track.  Inside the engine servicing facility, I also use some ground throws, but the yard ladder and the crossovers are all Tortoise controlled, and the Tortoises are activated by DPDT switches on the control panel visible at the top of the photo.  Those little black buggers that you see next to each turnout in the yard are dwarf signals (Tomar Industries).

For the most part, I don't have any reach issues since the depth is no more than 36" as seen in the second photo.  In the first photo, the reach is also no more than 36" on the left side except where the roundhouse is located.  You can see the duckunder just before the roundhouse.  Fortunately, I rarely have to use that access point.  There is also a covered duckunder to the right of the roundhouse at the top of the photo but, again, I never really need it.

Those two photos form an inverted "L" and that is why the yard curves to the right at the top of the first photo. In the second photo, the double mainline turns right for about 4 feet and then curves to the right again and comes back into a peninsula before turning back up to the top and right of the second photo, then turns left across the top of the photo, then it curves left and comes down the left side of the photo, behind the roundhouse and then across the double truss bridge (barely visible in the first photo),  After a run of another 18 feet along the basement wall on the left side of the first photo, it curves back and up to the point at the bottom of the first photo.  Tour completed!

Rich

[Motley]

Rich, that is a very impressive layout, I really like it!! And the yard looks good too.

How do you reach the back part of your layout? Any reach length issues? I see you use ground throws for the switches?

I noticed your rails are brass colored, what kind of track/switches are you using?

Thanks,

Michael

[richhotrain]

Motley

Rich, show us some pics of your layout and yard. We don't care if your scenery isn't perfect because of the track re-work.

 

This first photo is my layout at the point where the double mainline accesses the yard through crossovers beginning at the signal bridge.  The third track from the right is what I consider the arrival-departure track with turnouts into the engine servicing facility and the freight yard.  The first three yard tracks are reserved for classification, the fourth yard track is my caboose track, and the fifth yard track is an engine runaround track for the switchers to reach the other end of the yard.  You can see the extension of the A/D track beyond the turnouts near the bottom of the photo.  I consider that extension as my drill track and use it as such.  The other inside tracks at the bottom left of the picture lead to an industrial siding and my passenger car yard.

This second photo is the other end of my yard connecting once again to the double mainline at the point of the other signal bridge.  You can see the extension of my A/D track (my other drill track) heading up in the photo with the three reefer cars sitting at the end.  On the left side of the photo is a 5-track siding on the return portion of the double mainline.

Be nice, it is still a work in progress.

Rich

[steinjr]

 Dave --

 Thank you for the tour of Wilmington!

 I like the way you have used fairly short industry spurs going off in different directions to give the look and feel of a crowded city scene.

 In particular, I really like the Maryland Avenue part - a very nice use of that shortish wall segment. How long is the part the Maryland Avenue tracks are on - about 2 1/2 feet?

 You mention team track, freight house and three industries. I can only see two industries from the angle the photo has been taken. One at the end of the track behind the team track, and one  at the end of the second track in the front of the freight house. Or is the building in the foreground (at the end of the team track) also a rail served industry?

 Like the way you can spot two tracks of cars in front of the freight house, so you can spot up to 4 cars for the freight house.

 In the area by the engine facility:

 

Trying to orient myself - the fourth track from the left (ie directly to the right of the engine facility) is the runner, with the fifth track being what up by the yard throat is the main.  Is Wilmington conceptually at the end of the line for your railroad, so the main (for your railroad) ends there?

 Nice (and interesting) crossover arrangement between the runner/Maryland Avenue freight house track/station track one and the main/station track 2. Makes it possible for one operator to rearrange a passenger train for departure from station track 2 while someone else is switching Maryland Avenue, and still is flexible enough to allow one passenger train to arrive on one track while another is ready to depart on the other track. Nice work!

 Are those freight cars in the pictures mostly 40-foot cars, or were cars shorter in 1905? How long are the passenger cars - about 60 scale feet?

 Looks like a railroad it would be fun to operate on!

 I realize that I am being greedy now, but I hope you will (when you can find the time) share with us some more pics, like of the staging area behind the wall, and maybe a little description of a little part of an operating session on your railroad in this area.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[dehusman]

steinjr

 Nice (and functional) looking yard throat.Got a picture showing the yard tracks looking the other way (down the yard tracks) ?

Since you asked....

Here is the stub end of the yard:

I wish I had another 2 ft of room, I would have double ended 2 or 3 tracks.

While we are touring, here is an overview of downtown Wilmington, DE.  The engine facilities are in the foreground, downtown in the back and industries to the left and right.

To the extreme left is the Maryland Ave branch with a team track, freight houses and 3 industries:

Towards the center is the passenger station.  The tracks in the back are the interchanges with the PRR and B&O and the King St Branch, curving to follow the Christiana River :

Across from the roundhouse area is Harlan and Hollinsworth, ship and passenger car builders.  To the right is the connection to the Delaware River Extension, crossing the Christiana River and going through an industrial area to a car float to Carney's Point, NJ.

The King St. branch and the Del River Ext are treated as branches with their own switch jobs, they are actually staging tracks.  The PRR, B&O, King St and Del Riv Ext all go behind the backdrop and have connections for cassette staging to swap out custs of cars (when my car fleet becomes big enough to support that.)

[Motley]

Rich, show us some pics of your layout and yard. We don't care if your scenery isn't perfect because of the track re-work.

[steinjr]

dehusman

Here is the business end of Wilmington yard on my 1905 W&N railroad.

The through track on the left is the main. The two stub tracks next to the wall are industry tracks. 

The track next to the main is the "runner".  It is used as a running track, A/D track, runaround, whatever is needed.

The next 5 tracks are class tracks.  Only track #1 is double ended.

The two tracks on the right are the caboose track (with cabooses on it) and the scale track (with the engine on it). 

The two tracks exiting at the top are the main and the drill track (with an engine on the main.

Note the pair of crossovers which allow a train to move from any yard track to the main and allow a cut to be pulled or placed from the drill.  It is possible for a switcher to switch the yard through the top crossover while another switches weighs cars from the drill through the scale track into yard track #5.

In addition the switch lead, caboose track, scale track and pair of crossovers all form a variety of short runarounds.

 

 Nice (and functional) looking yard throat.Got a picture showing the yard tracks looking the other way (down the yard tracks) ?

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[dehusman]

Here is the yard on the layout I built for my son, it is a L shaped shelf layout along 2 walls in a finished basement.  the yard lis located in one of the return loops on one end:

The track closest to the edge is the main.

The track next to it is the drill track.  The caboose track breaks off the drill.

Back on the loop are two tracks inside the main, they ate the A/D tracks (they have trains in them).

Inside the loop are, from left to right, the engine house tracks, 4 class tracks (currently holding passenger cars) and a team track.

While my son mostly just runs trains, the yard is designed to be fully functional.  You can depart to the main off either A/D track or the class tracks.  A switcher can pull a cut back onto the lead and let a train depart. A switcher can move cuts from any track, including the main to any other track in the yard.

Here is the business end of Wilmington yard on my 1905 W&N railroad.

The through track on the left is the main. The two stub tracks next to the wall are industry tracks. 

The track next to the main is the "runner".  It is used as a running track, A/D track, runaround, whatever is needed.

The next 5 tracks are class tracks.  Only track #1 is double ended.

The two tracks on the right are the caboose track (with cabooses on it) and the scale track (with the engine on it). 

The two tracks exiting at the top are the main and the drill track (with an engine on the main.

Note the pair of crossovers which allow a train to move from any yard track to the main and allow a cut to be pulled or placed from the drill.  It is possible for a switcher to switch the yard through the top crossover while another switches weighs cars from the drill through the scale track into yard track #5.

In addition the switch lead, caboose track, scale track and pair of crossovers all form a variety of short runarounds.

[richhotrain]

steinjr

 Btw - A/D is short for Arrival/Departure, not Approach/Departure.

Smile,
Stein

GASP!

  I think I called it an access-departure track, then an approach-departure track, in my initial post.

Thanks for setting me straight, Stein.  

Rich

[steinjr]

richhotrain

I am fortunate in that I have a 42' x 22' space for the layout in an open P-shape.

The yard is situated on an inside curve.  The approach-departure (A/D) track measures 30', 14' to the left of the yard ladder access track and 10' to the right of the yard ladder access track.  I now consider these two extensions of the A/D track as the switching leads or drill tracks.  The portion of the A/D track between the two yard ladder access tracks measures 16'.  That portion is reserved for incoming and outgoing freight trains.

The yard tracks measure approximately 16', 14', 12',10' and 8'.  I use that 8' track as the engine runaround track to keep switchers moving from one side of the yard to the other.  The 10' track is my caboose track.  The three longest yard tracks are the freight car classification tracks.

 

 Sounds like you have plenty of yard space then - depending on how many and how long trains you need to be able to handle in your yard.

 With your setup you don't need to designate a specific track the A/D track.  In your case you can take 16-foot trains into (or out of) either of your two yard tracks closest to the main - the one you have labeled the A/D track, and the next one in - since both tracks are just as accessible from the main, and just as long (16 feet).  14-foot trains can be taken into (or depart from) any of the first three tracks from the main.

 Btw - A/D is short for Arrival/Departure, not Approach/Departure.

Smile,
Stein

 

[richhotrain]

Thanks everyone for your responses.  This turned out to be much more interesting and educational for me than I had even imagined.

I went down to my layout to take some measurements.

I am fortunate in that I have a 42' x 22' space for the layout in an open P-shape.

The yard is situated on an inside curve.  The approach-departure (A/D) track measures 30', 14' to the left of the yard ladder access track and 10' to the right of the yard ladder access track.  I now consider these two extensions of the A/D track as the switching leads or drill tracks.  The portion of the A/D track between the two yard ladder access tracks measures 16'.  That portion is reserved for incoming and outgoing freight trains.

The yard tracks measure approximately 16', 14', 12',10' and 8'.  I use that 8' track as the engine runaround track to keep switchers moving from one side of the yard to the other.  The 10' track is my caboose track.  The three longest yard tracks are the freight car classification tracks.

I would post photos but I am in the midst of adding cinders back after some extensive track realignment so it doesn't look real pretty at the moment.

Your comment and advice here is invaluable to me. Thanks again.

Rich

[richhotrain]

steinjr

richhotrain

Is the switching lead and the drill track one and the same? 

 Yes.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

Thanks, Stein, that seemed to be the case to me but I wasn't sure.

Rich

[richhotrain]

BRAKIE

Your yard looks good for a home layout..

Brakie,

Thank you much, I appreciate that coming from you.

Rich

[richhotrain]

dehusman

Not sure what you consider an "approach departure" track. 

In your diagram the green tracks would be the drill tracks beyond the ladders.  They don't have to connect back into the mains and can be stub ended.  The drill tracks are used as tail room for the switchers to pull back a cut to switch it.  With your yard design any track in the yard can be used as an arrival, departure, or classification track.  So I wouldn't get too concerned about designating a specific "arrival-departure track".  Most small yards don't have "arrival-departure" tracks.  Because the green yard track is the longest track, you might use it more often as an arrival or departure track, but it doesn't have to be exclusively dedicated to that purpose.

Dave,

Thanks for that info.  I consider the green colored track as my approach-departure track, using that track to initially accept trains coming in off the main line and prepare completed trains for departure from the yard for the main line.

Not sure how appropriate that is.

Rich

[steinjr]

 

spidge

 

 Now, if you take Spidge's yard and add a crossover from the yard lead/drill track (where the engine is) to the main (on the left), somewhere behind the engine, you can (even if both A/D tracks are full), depart a train directly from any yard track, or take a train directly into any yard track.

 At the cost of the yard switcher having to stop classifying cars and get out of the way while a train departs from or arrives into one of the yard tracks on the right side. That is the core of tip #12 in the article you refer to.

 As for whether you would want to do so - that depends on how you want to operate your yard, and your amount of traffic - whether the main challenge for your yard is not time to sort cars without being interrupted by arriving or departing trains, or whether it is "not enough A/D capacity for originating or departing trains".

 Rich's design is fairly flexible with regard to trains being able to arrive or depart from any track.

 Switching (on one end of the yard) will have to stop whenever a train actually arrives or departs - since all paths into any yard track crosses over the switching lead.

 All tracks are double ended and the yard is pyramid shaped.

 Which will costs you a lot in potential yard capacity (in the number of cars per track). Might be worth it if you will be switching your yard from both ends and arriving and departing trains both ways a lot.

A couple of illustrations of yard capacities with different kinds of yard configurations. None of the drawings show the yard lead (which comes in addition, if you won't be switching off the main):
 

 

 

Smile,
Stein

 

[maxman]

The problem I had with the tips was the comment that one of the class tracks could be used as an arrival/departure track if the normal track for that purpose was otherwise occupied.  While this is true, once a train gets into the class track then what happens?  There was no engine escape track, plus the tail end of the train would have blocked the switching lead so that the switcher was trapped.  In the construction trade that is know as being "two blocked".

I also feel that the capacity of that yard was rather limited considering its 12 foot length.  Possibly there was more track off to the left so that the class tracks could be extended, but now we're getting outside the realm of space that a lot of us have available. 

[spidge]

You seem to have it figured out. The hard part to swallow is the length involved in the throught and drill(tail) or switching lead. Idealy the lead should be long enough to handle the cars of a train to reduce the number of moves in and out of the arrival departure tracks. I compressed mine and it takes two shots for my switcher to classify an entire train.

A pic to help. The switcher is on the tail (drill) track and if you enlarge the photo you can see he has dirrect access to both A/D tracks(where the 2 trains are) and the yard. The track left of the trains and switcher is the mainline. This way through trains can proceed without delay and a train can arrive or depart while the switcher continues to work delayed only by a train movement on the right track.

 

[BRAKIE]

A switch lead can double for a inbound/outbound lead in smaller terminals and some times any track can be used as a switch lead.One such example would be any of the tracks leading from a hump bowl to a outbound track...Some smaller outlaying yards the main line is the switch lead.

IMHO theres not a cut and dry answer because yard operations is complex..Thankfully we condense that operation down to modeling size and in doing so our yards become simpler to operate.

Your yard looks good for a home layout..

[steinjr]

richhotrain

Is the switching lead and the drill track one and the same? 

 Yes.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[dehusman]

Not sure what you consider an "approach departure" track. 

In your diagram the green tracks would be the drill tracks beyond the ladders.  They don't have to connect back into the mains and can be stub ended.  The drill tracks are used as tail room for the switchers to pull back a cut to switch it.  With your yard design any track in the yard can be used as an arrival, departure, or classification track.  So I wouldn't get too concerned about designating a specific "arrival-departure track".  Most small yards don't have "arrival-departure" tracks.  Because the green yard track is the longest track, you might use it more often as an arrival or departure track, but it doesn't have to be exclusively dedicated to that purpose.

[richhotrain]

In the June 2010 issue of MRR, there is an artice titled, "13 Tips for Freight Yard Operation and Design".

Tip #10 is to include a drill track off the main line.  Fair enough!  Then, Tip #12 suggests direct access between classification tracks and the main line and includes a diagram.  The diagram illisustrates the connection between the classification yard and the main line.  It shows an arrival-departure track but no drill track, although the extension of the arrival-departure track beyond the yard ladder access track from the main line is referred to as the "switching lead".  Is the switching lead and the drill track one and the same?  Is the extension of the access-departure track beyond the yard ladder access track considered the drill track or switching lead?

On my layout, I have a double main line and an access-departure track, all connected by crossovers which continue as access tracks into and out of a double ended yard.  My yard consists of 5 "classification tracks", if you will.  I use the first three tracks to classify cars, the fourth track serves as a caboose track, and the fifth track serves as a "roundaround" track for the switch engines to reach either end of each classification track.  I am probably not using one or more of these terms correctly, and my layout is nowhere near prototypical, but I wonder if it passes at all for an accurate representation.  And, do I correctly place the approach-departure track and is the extension of the approach-departure track beyond the access track to the yard ladder considered a switching lead or drill track?

Here is a very crude, and highly compressed, diagram of my yard.  The blue and red tracks are the mainline, the green track is the approach-departure track, and the orange tracks are the yard tracks. The black tracks are the crossovers.

Rich