cudakenIf you are going to use flex track with cork road bed, sand the road bed to make it level as well.
One other possibility, and I may well be lambasted for this, but Bachmann makes preset curves in the 30"+ range. For cost, you could lay your straight sections in Cork+flextrack, and save some headaches in curves with the Bachmann track, if you don't feel like trying to hunt kinks out of flex.
As far as engine planning, when I did it for Half-Moon Orion & Northern's origianl design, I first set up a schematic for all locos likely used, and then narrow down from there to what would be coming through the layout area, and then do a few numbers of the engiens I liked best.
For example:
This was fun for a freelance railroad,but time consuming, and ultimately a wasted time, since HO&N wouldn' happen like that. It has since become a diorama layout plan (Switching layout that will most likey not be switched that often) of places and characters Dad and I came up with on long drives between Mom's house West of Indy to his in Sharonville Ohio for a time. I'm still having trouble now narrowing the engines down to 3. (I want a 45 tonner, since it's modern, I'm considering a Genset for intown switching, and somehow I'd kinda like to do Monon's H10 #18 in the black yellow warbonnet, almost exactly like the ATSF pattern, but Monon had it first. Probably an EMD design. Maybe that one could be a branch-line engine, I'm not sure)
My next big layout was easy though, There's only 4. A GP10 (That no one makes... Grumble) an SW7, and I'm making room for a pair of SD7s. The rest of what I run is just Gravy.
Includding one elephant-eared Big Boy that was rebuilt with Rocket Science to cut weight flavored gravy. (How else does one explain a 4-8-8-4 sneaking out of Eastern Indiana? For that matter, how does a Big Boy sneak?)
On Steam: YES. 844 WILL be produced again, and again, and again by Athearn. Steam is still popular, and if a modern class one that everyone can relate to is running one of only a handfull of survivng steam engines, that thousands of people can and have seen, and you have a model of that engine, thenthe thing will sell.
Just as an aside, the MTH engines are subject to great debate. They are nice engines, but they don't do well going from a DC layout to a DCC layout due to their DCS decoder, (Their version of the BLW air throttle. Actaully, the whole DC/DCC versus DCS discussin works like the electric vs. air throttle. SOme swear by one but tnot the other, others try to make both work.) it results in engines thta won't talk to you or respond to commands, or respond properly. (You tell the engine to idle speed, and it GOES REAL FAST!) The newer engines are doing better with the proble, than the older ones. Ultiamtely, it's up to you, and your luck. I;ve had to chase a member's DCS 4449 several times because that throttle ain't doin' squat to stop it, plugged in or wireless. But I've talked to people who have had nothing but pure maic with their 4449s. SOme of the new MTH locos are also cominbg out in DC forms, so you might get a DC 844 if your lucky. But yes, Athearn will most assuredly re-release it. And 3985.
I'd kinda like to see 8444. It;'s just 844, but when it was first restored, there was an 844 diesel on the roster since UP had shelved the steamer, so they added a 4.
E vs. F units:
E units had three axle trucks, and two prime movers (engines) to each of them, making them longer and more powerful, or able to provide ample power fo rthe passenger cars. They were also geared for a higher speed. An F unit was a twin axle truck, and only a single prime mover, geared for slower speeds, and typically used on freight trains, though several roads, including Monon, used F units as passenger engines (that, was a lot of commas). I don't know of any E units in freight service until passenger trains were being canned, and the Es were extranious.
PA is the same as an E unit, but made by Alco instead of EMD, and FA is just ALCO's version of an F unit.
What determined who you bought had something to do with steam engines. Roads who frequently bought ALCO steam engines, would go to their customer service rep and buy ALCO diesels, since they were well known. The same reason a company continued to buy Dell computers, they had them, they liked them, the updated version ought to be as good.
-Morgan
Peahrens, If you want to run big engines build the best bench you can. Sand the wood or foam you are going to lay the turns on to make them level. If you are going to use flex track with cork road bed, sand the road bed to make it level as well. Make sure all joints where the track butts up is smooth. I have ran big engines on tight turns (they do look better of 24 inch) and they can work well.
Far as your love of the Big Boy, you are not the only one. I have a out of production PCM Big Boy and love watching it do a slow 50 car drag. Broadway Limited makes the PCM line, and used the same casting for the Blue Line Big Boy engines.
Far as diesels, I would look at Proto 1000 F-3's. Great pullers and a pair of A B units would run around $70.00. They are DCC ready and not hard to install a decoder in. I have 15 Protos and only one has went bad and it was ran well over 150 hours.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Thanks, all, for the thoughful comments.
To clarify my interests, the UP bias comes from family history (granddad and great granddad, plus the fact that it's much of what my grandsons see today in TX). Anything that rode the rails in the 1950-1965 period when I first got interested in trains is also a plus. My granddad ran a switcher in Sydney NE in the 1940's, so I ought to research what type that might have been. My other granddad (I never met either) worked in the Baldwin loco works in PA until about 1927, so if there were a Baldwin switcher built by 1927 that might have been in Sidney NE service in the 1930-1945 period, that would be an ideal type. Seems I ought to do more research.
We visited grandma's in 1955 (via Chicago from the east), and probably saw or maybe even rode behind a 4-8-4 (or Challenger), maybe saw a Big Boy. I was 7, so don't remember (I like to think it wasn't all diesel). And, the #844 Northern came thru TX a few years ago and my grandson and I chased it one day (and will again in 2 weeks). I wonder if it's even possible the #844 was pulling our family from Chicago to/from western NE in 1955! I think the Big Boy is just plain cool, so it's on the wish list (unless it's just too long for the layout). Thus, I hope to include some or most of those types in our roster, plus diesels that rode the UP rails in 1950's-1960's, such as switcher, F (or E) series, and GP types. I will be loose with prototype adherence, more of a fan of UP, a broad time period (late steam / early diesel, etc). Whatever is most fun will also carry weight.(e.g., for the grandkids). Oh, I'm trying to keep the mainline 30" radius, with some 28", and #6+ mainline switches (#5 in yards). And there will be freight (no modern long cars), and passenger. My current plan is to run 1-2 trains around the double, folded dogbone, while a grandkid operates the yards (or vice versa). The planning stage is lots of fun, so I'm not hurrying. Thanks again for the ideas and comments.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
Yes, good point, Mike. The engines that will give you the most grief over trackwork, but also choices in curves if they are low-radius curves, are the six axled diesels, particularly the modern longer ones like the AC6000 and prior models going back to the early 70's, and steam locomotives with large scale driving wheels, especially when four or more are coupled. The worst in HO, generally, are the Northern type 4-8-4 engines because they never come with a blind driver (no flange), whereas the ten-coupled do, and so does the Duplex T1 4-4-4-4 from Broadway Limited if you can lay your hands on such a beast. All articulated engines in anything but brass are going to be able to handle 22" radius curves or better, some down to 18". They'll look much better, of course, on curves with radii in the 30" range and on up.
-Crandell
I would also take into consideration the radius of the curves on the layout. I would love to have a big boy, but all that I'd be able to do is run it along straight track. I don't have curves broad enough to fully run an engine of that size. Just make sure you think about this before purchasing the larger wheel arranged engines.
Kudos on thinking about your engines while still in the planning stages. Good luck!!!
Fred's response, with its usual comprehensiveness and quality, speaks for itself.
I would add my own approach to thinking about the hobby and how any available locomotives could help me along. In my case, and I suspect in yours, you aren't all that keen to buy some books and materials, and spend the next three years perfecting the art of building HO scale steam locomotives. Probably not in any three year period coming to you....right?
So, you may be like me, and simply have a hankering for engine A...just 'cuz....and engine B looks pretty spiffy, too. If the UP ran 'em, then you're likely to try for it...if it's available. So, I do understand that you are concerned, up front, about availability, and then about quality and reputation in what is available. After all, they equate to utility, and if there is one thing to kill our hobby for us, it is engines that won't work. Worse, engines that are intermittent performers...they really drive us crazy. Bad engines, no engines, and bad track really hose the embers of our hobby enjoyment.
To address the specifics of engines of the type and manufacture that you probably have as choices, the Athearn Genesis FEF's are decent engines..nicely detailed, strong pullers, run well. My pesonal complaint was with the appearance of the side-rods' mounting practice...I think it looks terrible, and not prototypical enough for my tastes.
I don't know much about the Genesis Challenger, but just a day or two back on another forum, I remarked that one person said he had heard nothing but good reviews. He had heard from other users that it was a good strong puller and worked reliably. It is also nicely detailed.
It is in the MRC decoder that a person is likely to experience grief. If you want either engine, and must purchase what is available, and that is with the decoder, you will have to do that. Rip out the decoder and install a Soundtraxx Tsunami 'heavy steam' in its place. Such a package has restored the smiles and pleasure to untold users.
I don't know about availability, but Bachmann makes/made some small switchers. Know nothing about their reputation. Walthers Proto 2000 Heritage Series 0-6-0 and 0-8-0, if they can still be found, are super engines, particularly the latest release of the 0-8-0. I have the 0-6-0 and consider it a gem...just light as a puller.
I don't know how you are fixed for cash, but Broadway Limited imports is selling several refurbished nearly-all brass Hybrid 2-10-2 steamers, called Santaf Fe types. The price is good, you'll get full warranty, and they are amazing...I have one.
If you like articulated steam, look for a Y3 loaner that the UP used, seconded from the Norfolk & Western during the second World War...I believe. They are still available, although they'll cost ya. I think M. B. Klein might still have some, and probably Walthers could hook you up. They are also in the Heritage Series from P2K.
Bachmann makes some other engines that may be decent enough representation of UP steam. M'B. Klein (modeltrainstuff.com) would have a good selection if it is available, but shop around. Try also trainworld.com.
I hope that helps you out a bit.
As for diesels, the only manufacturer that I have heard is a bit of an iffy one for diesels is Bachmann, particularly their basic ones...not so much their Spectrum series, which includes their better steam performers...as a rule. Atlas engines are superior, as are Kato. Proto 2000 have good reputations. Athearn Genesis makes really good diesels, probably the best in terms of detail. I know that generally their truck detail and fidelity is the standard in the HO industry...the affordable half, that is. But, they all have produced problematic diesels or parts of them that render them door stops. Unless there is a simple fix, such as is the case with split plastic gears. The crop up more often than is funny.
I applaud the idea of a locomotive roster plan. IMHO, at least an outline of a plan should be part of the layout design itself. Iain Rice designs his layouts with specific locomotives in mind. But, from reading your post, I see some obstacles to a locomotive "plan":
Probably the bottom line question for you to answer is how important is fidelity to UP practice to you? If it's really important, then I would recommend becoming a member of the UP historical society, and learning UP practices and history before drawing up a plan.In planning the roster for my free-lance 1900-era layout, I first decided what trains would run in a typical operating session. Based on regional prototype practices and era for the situation, I assign appropriate motive power to each train. The tightness of the era prescribes a lot of limits - there were a lot of locomotives built after 1900 that won't "fit". The locomotive train assignment chart creates my "dream" roster. I don't "need" any more locomotives than that.
Then, after having my dream roster in hand, I look at what is available. Since there are very few era-appropriate locomotives available, I have to accept the challenge to bash or modify (or scratch if I get my courage up) what is available into something more suitable. I may use an inappropriate locomotive as a stand-in until I get something more appropriate built and running, and then sell the model that doesn't fit as well. My Rivarossi Heisler is an example of this - it is too big and way too modern for my layout, but will suffice until I get the MDC Shay kit (with back-dated boiler) built.
With the full roster developed, it's very easy to manage (and keeps the wife happy). If something better that fits my roster needs comes along, and I can afford it, I buy it. The previous holder of the roster spot is sold.
Steam switcher - the most common steam switcher of all time was the 0-6-0, and dominated after 1900. 0-8-0s started coming on stronger towards the end of the steam era. Either would probably work for you.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I'm interested in any pointers or opinions (some of this is subjective) in how to plan for locomotives (over time) for a new HO layout. I'm 3 months into layout planning for a 10' by 13' (max) L-shaped layout. I'm considering starting out by building a few buildings, acquiring a DCC system and also a 1st engine plus some track to try things out as I continue planning. I plan to bias towards UP locomitives, perhaps mixed with my own rail line (custom decals, etc), named after the grandkids or something fun like that. I'll lean towards engines from the 40's to the 60's mainly, plus a modern one if needed for fun.
So, I'm biased towards (depending on lots of things) UP 4-8-4 with a Chellenger and/or Big Boy (some day), F-seies and GP diesels, plus a diesel (and maybe a steam switcher). I've checked out some threads here plus some MR product reviews, but I haven't got my arms around it, as my questions below will indicate. I might go for a diesel switcher first (to figure out the DCC, etc). I prefer one with sound, and see things like the Proto 2000 SW7, FM-H10-44, etc.
a) I presume that (diesel) Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000, and some others (certain Atlas) have quality mechanics and run well initially and are reliable? On Athearn, is a DC Genesis the same in detail and mechanism and simply lacks the DCC motion and sound decoders? If so, I can buy an Athearn I like and convert it to a preferred decoder (I'd check out what's available). What other brands do you suggest I look at for diesels (I don't have any idea, for instance, how MTH, Broadway Ltd, and Kato compare in quality & performance with the aforementioned brands. And, how to Bowser/Stewart Hobbies and Bachmann Spectrum fit in (in your opinion)?
b) On steam engines, I feel like I might have missed the boat (timing-wise) on things like the Athearn UP 4-8-4 FEF-3, though I read that some were unhappy with the appearance of the side rods and attachments, plus maybe sound modules that were not so hot. And I don't think MTH offers the UP 4-8-4 now either. Would you guess that this engine (even the UP #844) would be produced again if I'm patient? Or, would you grab a DC FEF-3 that could be found and convert it?? Similarly, the UP Challenger...I'd love a copy of the #3985 (??) that still runs today but seem to have missed that from MTH. On the Big Boy, I see that Athearn is this year offering "weathered" versions. Would you expect those to be similar in quality to the 4-8-4 FEF3's (and have issues like side rods, sound decoder quality)...and how would they look (I think I'd prefer to have unweathered locos and then lighlty weather them as I prefer).
c) What wheel arrangement steam switcher would be common in the later steam period. I don't want a 0-4-0, but please suggest others, including models available. If not UP named, I could label with our in-house RR name.
d) There's such a variety (good news) of early road diesel types available...F-3, F-7, GP-xyz, etc. I think I can sort through the GP (and similar) types, including UP road named available, so if I better understood the aspects of each brand (and favored particular models) I could see sorting through that ok. But the E- and F-series models really confuse me. I guess I need to read more about prototype background...so it becomes an issue of years made (and running), style/details I like, use (freight, passenger, both) and road name availability.
I know this is rather all-encompassing problem (a good one to have) but I find my knowledge level (after 35 year or so away from the hobby) lacking, thus any suggestions would be much appreciated.