Let's do something productive and realistic regarding this boycott.

[AntonioFP45]

As I mentioned several times before we should put this issue to rest as the impact on licensing will very likely be "pennies on the dollar" for the model railroad manufacturers. However, whether UP loses or wins there is one legitimate concern mentioned before that seems justifibable. [;)]

While there is no evidence that Athearn is "gouging" us on UP models, some manufacturers or hobby distributors in the near future may take the advantage and be tempted to justify this situtaion for price "inflating"as profits are still the bottom line.

Simple Suggestion:
Guys, there is power in numbers. [4:-)][tup]

Go to the corresponding websites and e-mail: LifeLike, Atlas, Athearn, Stewart, Kato, Bachman, and Walthers, Horizon, etc. . Kindly let them know that you're aware of this situation regarding licensing and that the financial impact to them will actually be minimal and that as a regular or potential customer you are expecting them not "overinflate" prices as this will hurt their sales in the long run as well as your loyalty as a customer.

Now envision 100 of us each sending an e-mail to the above listed companies. Don't think too much about it, take a couple of minutes and do it!

IMHO, this would be more effective than "boycotting" UP models. Use the same energy that you had when you chimed in about Union Pacific . Afterwards let the UP topic "slide away" and let's get back to enjoying this hobby!

Cheers, Amigos!

[Anonymous]

Why do I feel ignored?

[AntonioFP45]

Hey Dougal,

You're not being ignored by any means. You've made some good points!

I'm only suggesting a different approach that may be more effective and might benefit all of us in the long run! [:)][:D][8D][8)]

10-4, guy!

[Anonymous]

hey AntonioFP45 - got an idea that supports what you've suggested above. I think your idea is a good one, and frankly a whole lot better approach than the ranting and raving going nowhere witnessed on many of the "lets get UP" posts.

Here's the deal: Someone, more familiar than I am w/ all the ins & outs of this issue, prepare a simple, non-confrontationable, non-threatening, and properly spelled letter to the manufacturers - possibly listing all the offending parties - but simply stating that their marketing and pricing practices relative to UP branded items are noted w/ displeasure, and that the undersigned modeler does not intend to patronize their products in the future, until they correct the errors of their ways, etc. If a letter such as this were signed by an entire club roster it could have even more impact. To make it easy, a master could be created w/ all the websites of the manufacturers listed, and the letter could be downloadable, so all one would have to do basically is download it sign it, and hit "send" . This would cut down on offensive emails and letters that do not achieve much of anything and tend to be deleted when opened. One could also download the letter in a print version and mail it. That's my opinion.

[AntonioFP45]

Great option!

Someone here hopefully, would know how to do this!

[Anonymous]

I know how to Scratchbuild. As long as Kalmbach, Northwest Shortline, A-Line, Train Station Products, and Digitrax stay in business I can make everything else.

Sorry for what is probably becoming a very annoying rant, but I need to vent my frustration before I do something really stupid like take a half dozen of my UP locomotives out and use them for target practice.

A very disgruntled James

[Anonymous]

No No No! lol i want you guys to boycott U.P.......just means more for me!!!

[FJ and G]

productive?

How about a poem (I don't know the author of this)--Dave Vergun:

We're a great big rollin' railroad

 

     We're a great big rollin' railroad
      One that everyone can see
      'Cause we're Usually Parked on sidings
      That's why we're called U.P.

      We're a million tons of cargo
      Just a rottin' in the sun
       We're the Union Pacific
       And our meltdown's just begun

       From the plugged up yard in Roseville
      To our mainline filled with cars
       It's a big congested mess
      Like a railroad version of SARS

       We're a thousand wheels of freight train
       All being held for power
       We're the Union Pacific
      Makin' half a mile an hour

       Bound from Omaha to Portland
       Our customers are in luck

       'Cause we're setting out their cargos
       To load it all on trucks

        With Amtrak stuck in Oakland

       And in Denver and L.A.

       We're the Union Pacific
       And you're not gonna move today

      From the Valley to Dunsmuir
      We are runnin' out of crews
       But we'll deliver your great cargo
       'Cause we're usin' DPU's

       We're much safer and efficient
       All thanks to remote control
       We're the Union Pacifc
      Our bean counters say it's so

       With our copyrighted emblem
       We're gonna make 'em bleed
      And the beatings will continue
      'Til our tired crews succeed

       Our investors are all waiting
       With the shippers on their knees
       We're the Union Pacific
       And we'll deliver when we please...

[Anonymous]

hehehe I saw that on another site.

[retsignalmtr]

there was a model railroader some years ago who had his railroad name and paint scheme adopted by a real railroad. i read about it in a model rr magazine but i can't remember which one. i didn't hear about him demanding tribute from them. the only way to make your point to the up is to flood them with emails from every modeler in the country. not just one from each but one every week from everyone. not that it would do much good but it might make them wake up.

[Anonymous]

Damn Right U.P. will deliver when they please..and i like U.P. trains just sitting there more for me to look at and making all non U.P. fans mad..lol

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up9899

Damn Right U.P. will deliver when they please..and i like U.P. trains just sitting there more for me to look at and making all non U.P. fans mad..lol

Shareholders really love it too. ......

...and so do customers......

....UP's Building America alright......building a better customer base for trucking.....

[Anonymous]

Boy! i win no matter what! A. i love to sit and watch U.P. engines, and B. my dads a truck driver so its a win win situation for me!

[AntonioFP45]

Guys,

I'm almost sorry I posted this topic. [:0]

I really thought the point would come across in "redirecting our efforts" from something unproductive to utilizing our brain power for a worthwhile effort .

Hopefully more of you will chime in with a willingness to at least support the idea of contacting the manufacturer's as an intelligent, educated group. [4:-)][C=:-)][C):-)][8)]

[cacole]

Unless you're a major manufacturer who ships millions of tons of some type of product by rail, trying to boycot UP by not purchasing models of their locomotives and rolling stock is like spitting into the wind -- it will have no effect at all on UP, only the model manufacturers, so all this talk of a boycot is silly.

If that's the way people feel about a company trying to protect its intellectual rights, then you should also boycot all sports and products with a logo on them. No more T-shirts, shorts, jackets, coffee mugs, etc. with any type of logo, because the manufacturer of that product is having to pay a royalty to use the logo.

[Anonymous]

Everybody please go re-read AntonioFP45's topic starter (first post this thread). HE IS NOT ADVOCATING BOYCOTTING UP - He has made one of the first realistic suggestions on this topic (which shows up almost every other day as another UP topic, with yet another rant going nowhere) -he is urging each model railroader to contact the various model railroad manufacturers and distributors, NOT to waste your energy on UP.

What he's saying is that you may very well have an impact on a manufacturer or distributor of model trains (even Walthers, Horizon, Atlas, Lionel, etc. are tiny relative to a Class 1 rail transportation giant), for the loss of some business to the model railroad company could have considerable significance, especially if it brings them long term loss of 'good will'. and a permanently lost portion of their customer base.

What do you think "boycotting UP" would achieve? Would it freak out their shareholders, threaten their management, cause their engineers to run their trains too fast and carelessly, cause shippers to divert their shipments to trucks, clog the yards worse than they are, or bring the UP and their lawyers to their knees, and shut down the railroad. UP doesn't care - it is a faceless corporate giant run by a board of directors loyal to shareholders. As you know, the UP has far more serious matters at hand than this royalty issue, which is in itself, just a piece of the copyright, trademark and intellectual property rights issues that apparantly hadn't been 'managed' to someone's liking and the lawyers have been hauled in to do their usual dastardly deeds.

The way I see it , you have quite a few choices -
a) - follow Antonio's suggestion that each of us email the model companies expressing your opinion that you will not purchase from them, etc. if they take unfair advantage of the UP mess and misinformation pertaining to the true added cost of the UP royalty payments
b) - stop buying UP branded merchandise, strip and redecorate all your UP equipment , and consider freelancing as a hedge against the onslaught of royalties
c) - buy all you can of available UP branded stuff in the hopes you'll corner the market, creating an artificial shortage, before the manufacturers and distributors figure out what you're doing, or before they divert all their production to UP branding, creating a shortage for every other roadname
d) - wait for c) above to occur, then grab up all the overstocked UP items at clearance and blow out prices
e) - check the Forum three times a day in order to not miss the latest "boycott UP" topic, and respond with something totally irrelevant and ineffective
f) - model the UP totally in private, run it in the dark, and all by yourself, unless you form a cult wherby all your operating buddies swear an act of allegiance and secrecy
g) - do nothing at all, except make up some UP related 'did you hear about the UP attorney that. . .' type jokes to vent your spleens

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up9899

Boy! i win no matter what! A. i love to sit and watch U.P. engines, and B. my dads a truck driver so its a win win situation for me!

Perhaps then, 1/87 truck modelling is your forte, not trains.

[AntonioFP45]

Hey Bill Matthewson,

Thanks for your common sense! Seems that so far, no one else is advocating the idea of making a "group effort" to let the manufacturers know that "we're not ignorant yahoos!"

Hopefully some of us will at least go ahead and e-mail the manufacturers. I definetly will!

Take care, Amigo!

[LuthierTom]

Has anyone considered contacting the UP's Public Relations department and politely asking that they consider following the lead of major Aerospace manufacturers, who minimize or wave trademark licensing fees (charging them off to advertising on their tax returns) if the licensed product reflects favorably on the company? I have personally seen one of the big Aerospace companys do that type of thing.

As far as putting the model manufacturers on notice that they should not use this situation to engage in price gouging, that is probably a good idea IF the exact amount the licensing fee adds to the price can be determined. While the direct cost is easy to compute, the indirect cost (administrative cost to administer and track the license fee) is not so easy to get a handle on.

[Anonymous]

Dharmon i think not, just trains U.P. just helps me out no matter what U.P. rules! suckas! lol

[brothaslide]

Lets all boycott Great Northern!!!!!![:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]

Opps - I think I'm a few years too late.

Have fun stormin' the castle!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up9899

Damn Right U.P. will deliver when they please..and i like U.P. trains just sitting there more for me to look at and making all non U.P. fans mad..lol

These UP bashers make me a little sick, I bet 90 percent of them model UP, but they are just letting themselves get caught up in some stupid thread just to be agreeable, and not stand up to the bashers, I model UP, and am proud of it.

Mac

[Jetrock]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole


If that's the way people feel about a company trying to protect its intellectual rights, then you should also boycot all sports and products with a logo on them. No more T-shirts, shorts, jackets, coffee mugs, etc. with any type of logo, because the manufacturer of that product is having to pay a royalty to use the logo.

That would be simply MAGNIFICENT. I would LOVE to see a world where the majority of the population were NOT pathetic walking billboards for sports teams, clothing manufacturers, pro wrestlers, automobiles or the screeching musician-of-the-month. Once we can move beyond a culture ruled by pathetic corporate logos, perhaps corporations will stop obsessing over them...

[Anonymous]

It was a simple world back when - you either had P. F. Flyers or Keds, Lees or Levis, and you rode either a J. C. Higgins, Schwinn, or an 'English' bike, as well as joined in the Lionel vs American Flyer rivalry. It was Ford vs. Chevy, and foreign cars were driven by wierdos, intellectuals and 'well-traveled' people. Someone's Dad was always smarter, stronger, or more whatever, than someone elses. It was about the Dodgers vs the Giants or all about the Yankees. Your selection of one brand over the other said legions about your self image, your family's stature within the community, and just how hip you might be.

Then along came an alligator to decorate your shirt, and suddenly all other shirts didn't quite cut it in the status conscious world crafted by Madison Ave. Athletes got paid big buck endorsements to place their names on the flanks of athletic shoes, until they decided to buy the companies, take them off-shore to sweat shops, and make obscene money off of celebrity-brand crazed American youth. Before long, designer labels were plastered all over most clothing articles, including the Hanes undershorts I'm wearing as I type this.

Did it start w/ gelatin deserts being called Jello, facial tissues commonly all called Kleenex, or was it all refrigerators being once just 'fridges (for Fridgedare), and all vacuum cleaners were 'hoovers? Uninformed non-car people once referred to all foreign sports cars as MGs, because MG was a recognizable brand name larger than its product.

All these corporate labels, slogans, and logos have an intrinsic value that are a component of a corporation's overall worth. As is "good will" considered an asset on a corporate financial ledger.

Money grubbers realized that the path to financial stardom could be shortened considerably by ripping off a successful competitor's product image - their style, logos, labels, and even their very names. A form of identity theft but more severe, because one equates a certain level of performance, quality, or reliability with a recognizable brand's goods and services. Not only does it rip off that company, it rips off the consumer who got duped into buying a fake - a knockoff.

Then the lawyers are called in - to recover lost monies, to protect and to preserve the brand's identity, to seek out and destroy all known nasties threatening a company's reputation, image, or marketability. The law firm hired by a corporation is chartered with winning for the client at all costs, even if the results appear irrational and unfair. If they've gone too far, the public relations gurus are then waltzed across the stage to make things right. It's akin to standing up and saying excuse me after cutting a stinky beer fart during High Mass, as opposed to blaming it on your Mom sitting next to you. . .

Total insanity ! JetRock stated it well, and unfortunately we live in a world not like the one he wishes for, but this is reality, like it or not.

For transportation giants like UP to impose a licensing fee onto a manufacturer of model trains for the extended privilege of depicting the UP corporate paint scheme and logo is no different than any other corporation doing that on other products. And many of them do. However, the flip side of that suddenly illustrates how absurd all of this is, for in the world of auto racing and many sports venues, corporations pay humongous money to teams to display their corporation's names on their race cars, or sponsor sporting events, instead of being paid for the privilege of using that corporation's name.

I have always wondered why manufacturers wouldn't welcome the increased exposure of their corporate name by it being displayed on toys, hobby items, and the like. It's apparantly about the precedent being set for allowing it to be used, and that is fine and controllable through licensing agreements. The rationality of it falls apart when those same companies charge for that exposure, and then spend millions to advertise their company in all sorts of international media. Go figure.

[Anonymous]

Why are we boycotting UP? We should be boycotting Athearn and Lionel.

[dharmon]

We're boycotting UP and all it's fallen flags, CSX, Athearn/Horizon, Lionel, MTH, MTV, ATV, ATF, AAA, BRRM, Braniff, Bubba Gump Shimp, Guilford, Maritime, SLR, MMA, NYC, PC, PGA, NCAA, NBA, NFL, AFL, CIO.....whew...and just about everyone else who makes or distributes something, or distributes something made, or makes something to be sold, or licenses, sues and threaten to sue....or steals from or for...or .....or......or........or.......so just boycott everything. You can only scratchbuild freelanced models from materials you have refined yourself.

[Anonymous]

Everybody -- sit down, relax, take a deep breath, get a glass of milk, and take whatever medication you are supposed to, and then reread AntonioFP45s initial posting on this thread. You obviously still don't get it.

You're all taking this way too seriously, and getting all worked up like a bunch of old blue-haired spinsters at a Bingo parlor. The next thing someone will advocate is forming a picket line protesting at UP corporate headquarters. And why should we boycott Athearn, or did I miss something? Surely Horizon will have discussions with UP, if they haven't already. I don't expect that they plan to shelve their new Challenger just yet. I don't expect Lionel will cease making their new Veranda, unless they stole that one from someone (as they did from MTH)

If you rabble-rowsers want to vent about something take on the Lionel / MTH thing, for you have a legitimite gripe w/ Lionel and their Korean compadres for their crooked behavior. There is an issue worthy of a boycott, and I bet that more than one of you hope and pray that they'll then start offering deep discounts on their new Veranda as a PR stunt ! Then we'll hear just how unfair it was for the initial purchasers having paid 'sticker' for theirs. . .And, so on, and so on, like the Energizer bunny.

Last month it was the "Great threat to model railroading that Horizon might discontinue the 'blue boxes' debacle". This month it's UP this and that. Predict that Lionel will be in the barrel next month.

It's time to reread Antonio's post once again.

[Anonymous]

Let"s try to insert a little logic into this melee, Suppose I owned, or ran a large Coorporation called XYZ Fabricators, in a modest size Mid-western city, Suddeenly the new corner liquor store is named XYZ fabricators Liquor, In a City futher West, We"ll call it ABC Nevada, The new Brothel sports the name of XYZ fabricators Love Nest, Now I don"t believe it takes a Rocket Scientist to agree that my Coorporate image would be getting severely tarnished by the useage of my Coorporate identy by these businesses, whom I have absolutely nothing to do with, but would perspective customers of mine say something like this, I"m not doing any business with XYZ, They own a Liquor outfit, and a Brothel, not totally wholesome ventures in the minds of a lot of people, but this is exactly the kind of thing that can happen if my Coorporate identy is not protected by Legal means, which is exactly what UP, and CSX Railroads are doing, protecting what is rightfully theirs, Enough said, I think I made my point.


Mac

[Anonymous]

Ok let's be realistic here. WE are not going to make much of a difference if we boycott anyone listed. There are 157,859 people signed up for all 7 of the message boards. That's 22,551 per message boared if distributed equally. Probably a third of that is on regualary that makes 7,517. Lets make a wild estimate and say half model steam. So that leaves 3,758 and probably only a third of that models or even cares about UP so that makes 1,252. Even though that's probably a really high estimate of how many people actually care. That is only in this forum how many model railroaders out there don't visit this website and don't know this is happening. So it comes down to that there still is going to be more people still buying UP than there would be boycotting.
As dharmon would would have to boycott every MRR company and could only kitbash items from materials we make ouorselves. Which seems extreme and more expensive and time consuming than paying an extra 5 dollars on an already well priced engine. If you think engines are overpriced than try kitbashing one your self. It would cost your twice the amount of one RTR. It's seems extreme what you all are suggesting and i think we should be happy that we have such nice and well priced rolling stock readily available to us.
Andrew Miller

[dharmon]

Okay, being serious now....the point is ...the point has been made over and over ad nauseum..sometimes eloquently, sometimes less than so. For some reason this and a couple of related issues are magnets for continued, but pretty much pointless debate......and stuff.

There is a fair amount of stuff going on in the hobby industry, and apparently alot of it is negative..lawsuits, licensing, industrial espionage, and the list goes on......This is undoubtedly going to cause a fair amount frustration and ultimately expense on the part of hobbiests. Fact of the matter is that as a group model railroading has been sheltered from the ugly side of business for quite some time. It's just all hitting us at once.

Sit back, relax. It'll blow over. There's no reason to get all up in arms and go at each other for something that no one person really here has any control of. Boycotts are not going to hurt anyone but the industry and ultimately, us the modelers.