I will not pay $300, $400 or more for locos that I will then have to modify to run on my DC system. I will pay fair prices for non DCC/non sound locos I need/want - regardless of their pysical size.
Even though I am a big fan of DCC and sound, I gotta agree with Sheldon on this one. I'd rather buy them plain jane and upgrade them. A DCC and sound READY loco can serve both markets whereas a DCC and sound equipped model only serves one. The DCC and sound upgrade can be done incrementally.
Andre
andrechapelon My thought is you have to buy what is available and continue to email BLI, Atlas and Athearn or anyone out there that will listen to our wants in the future. Some have actually come true. No, I don't have to buy what is available because there's nothing being produced right now that I just HAVE to have. I have mailed the usual suspects multiple times telling them what I want. Apparently, they don't want my money and apparently there aren't enough people who want the same things I do. Either that, or the usual suspects aren't willing to take any risks, preferring instead to crank out endless variations on the same tired big locomotive theme. Andre
My thought is you have to buy what is available and continue to email BLI, Atlas and Athearn or anyone out there that will listen to our wants in the future. Some have actually come true.
No, I don't have to buy what is available because there's nothing being produced right now that I just HAVE to have. I have mailed the usual suspects multiple times telling them what I want. Apparently, they don't want my money and apparently there aren't enough people who want the same things I do. Either that, or the usual suspects aren't willing to take any risks, preferring instead to crank out endless variations on the same tired big locomotive theme.
Again, I'm in complete agreement with Andre. In my case Bachmann, Proto and to some extent Athearn seem interested in my money, so it keeps going there.
If BLI keeps making PRR monsters, or gives up on lower priced non sound/DCC they will loose what little business they have gotten from me.
I have bought from them:
2 - STEALTH Reading T-1's (these are the only BLI/PCM locos I paid anything near full price for)
2 sets of PCM STEALTH F3's (really cheap from factory direct trains)
1 - first release N&W class A (at the super sale price factory closeout to justify removing the sound/DCC)
1 - Blue Line 2-8-2 Heavy (at a good price - tender replaced in kit bashing project)
1 - Powerhouse 2-8-2 Heavy (bought used at a good price - also kit bashed with different tender)
Sheldon
rjake4454 I guess what I am trying to say is that I feel lucky that my favorite engines are being produced, but that doesn't mean other models shouldn't be made for fellows like yourself. I think Crandell a few months ago said that Broadway should look out for the other guys, the non PRR guys, I feel the same way as him, even though we are both PRR fans.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I feel lucky that my favorite engines are being produced, but that doesn't mean other models shouldn't be made for fellows like yourself.
I think Crandell a few months ago said that Broadway should look out for the other guys, the non PRR guys, I feel the same way as him, even though we are both PRR fans.
I like the idea of "customer service". This thing used to be that you would make various models that reached out towards a larger audience than what we see now. Now we make what SELLS. If that means that the Big Boy/Challenger/FEF is what sells then that is what is produced. Forget every other client base out there.
I'm not saying that the profit motive is wrong--it is just how that motive has become the ONLY motive left that is problematic here. Margins have become more 'inflated' as well. I have a couple of books on the retail/cottage industry sector from the mid 1990's that had margin set at 20-25%. Now we talk of about 40%. Interesting this---
Me. Huh--rather start working on the models--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
twhitePS: Crandell--when does yours arrive?
Tom, I have asked BLI to hold mine until mid-March. Wife and I will be away from home for a while and we won't be able to receive it. They have agreed, and will ship my repaired Y at the same time.
With my tastes and interests, and with the price point for the features, this one is a no-brainer.
-Crandell
twhiteI noticed that the front driver of the second set is blank, which leads me to my next question--what minimum radius did BLI design this loco for? Since it is a Duplex, I'd be very doubtful that BLI decided to 'articulate' the mechanism, and those drivers look BIG. I mean, we're actually talking 4-10-4 here, if you ignore the second set of pistons. For 'mass market' value are they thinking a minimum of 24" radius or so? I'd hate to think of the overhang on that baby
Tom
The specifications below show 22" or greater on the BLI page. I would guess greater is a key term here. Mine is on its way.
Did you get the NP Z6 from Sunset yet? I have one of those on layaway and it looks very nice overall.
CZ
Well, I won't be buying it personally, because it would look kind of out of place on Yuba Pass, LOL!, but I have to admit that that's one big beautiful HUNKER of a big non-articulated loco.
I noticed that the front driver of the second set is blank, which leads me to my next question--what minimum radius did BLI design this loco for? Since it is a Duplex, I'd be very doubtful that BLI decided to 'articulate' the mechanism, and those drivers look BIG. I mean, we're actually talking 4-10-4 here, if you ignore the second set of pistons. For 'mass market' value are they thinking a minimum of 24" radius or so? I'd hate to think of the overhang on that baby!
But I'll tell you, if that big lokie is all BRASS, then for THAT price, BLI ought to start thinking about maybe heading 'down' in scope and putting out some smaller wheel arrangements. Maybe some road-specific 4-6-2 or 2-8-2 lokies?
That's one gorgeous locomotive. And I'm still staggered about the price for BRASS! Whew!
PS: Crandell--when does yours arrive?
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I have nothing against those who collect, but I only have so much time, money and space and the goal of building a realistic operational layout is WAY more important to me than simply owning a lot of model trains - no matter how famous, popular, powerful, big, or whatever that they were. I have purposely narrowed my interests to an interrelated set of goals that I can acomplish.
I have nothing against those who collect, but I only have so much time, money and space and the goal of building a realistic operational layout is WAY more important to me than simply owning a lot of model trains - no matter how famous, popular, powerful, big, or whatever that they were. I have purposely narrowed my interests to an interrelated set of goals that I can acomplish.
I am not arguing against that.
I'm not even a true collector myself, for instance I don't have a single Big Boy, GS4, Challenger. I don't have the Acela, or any Amtrak locos either. However I am glad that these models are made for those that desire them, whether for collecting purposes, or if these are essential for their layout.
My interests are actually a lot like yours, I only buy engines from about 3 east coast road names, (in my case, the PRR, NYC, and N&W), and I focus my layout on a single theme, the 1940's steam mostly. I don't have the money, space, or other resources to collect other road names for the most part and more importantly I don't want to get distracted from my goals for my layout.
rjake4454I guess what I am saying is that there are already at least 3 companies (Bachmann Spectrum, MTH, and Broadway) making Mikados, which is fine, considering it was such a widely used loco, but so far Broadway is the only company to step up to the plate and make the Pennsy J1a.
Bachmann Spectrum Mikado? - you mean that 1980's China piece? I don't model China or the 1980's. How does that help anyone actually modeling the steam era in North America? And Broadway and MTH Mikados are of the same loco, USRA light. While it is good that it is a medium sized "work a day" locomotive, we still are suffering from multiple companies making the same prototypes - WHY? And they might be the only two USRA lights out there right now, but how many times has that been done? The idea is DIFFERENT prototypes - that are not big, are not PRR or UP and have not been done 6 times already.
rjake4454That being said, it would be great to see some Atlantics and more Consolidations. Why can't we have the best of both worlds? We can still be modelers and collectors at the same time. The two terms shouldn't be contradictory. Lets all work together in communicating with the manufacturers and appreciate each others interests at the same time.
1948PRR Anyone know what the differences are between the "prototype" 6131, and the production versions? I see what looks to be a differend configuration of the rear sanding line, and can't quite tell if the valve gear is different. Anyone know more? I've got one on order, but I'd trade it for 2 or 3 H10s of powerhouse/Paragon quality like the USRA 2-8-2!
Anyone know what the differences are between the "prototype" 6131, and the production versions?
I see what looks to be a differend configuration of the rear sanding line, and can't quite tell if the valve gear is different.
Anyone know more?
I've got one on order, but I'd trade it for 2 or 3 H10s of powerhouse/Paragon quality like the USRA 2-8-2!
The most noticable feature is the wide down the front cylinders stream lining skirts below the running boards. It was the only one to have that wide side plate and the rest are the normal for the group. I am not sure if it was ever modified, but I would venture a guess it probably was at some time. Most of the other appliances were about the same overall. You can look at both versions on the BLI web site. The 6131 did get the extra sanding line running back to the booster in the trailing truck later on. I am not sure if the BLI has this or not.
tstageATLANTIC CENTRALBlockbuster? What's that? You think "everyone" wil buy one? My goodness, Sheldon. Do you wait up in a tree for someone to make a statement/express a thought so that you can then jump all over it and tell everyone why you won't buy one...or what you would end up removing from it, if you did? Here's the term, according to Merriam-Webster: blockbuster (bläk-ˌbəs-tər) n. 2. one that is notably expensive, effective, successful, large, or extravagant - e.g. a blockbuster movie So, by sheer definition of the word, the term blockbuster as "notably expensive...large, or extravagant" - even before a single person has purchased one - accurately describes the BLI Q2. All that's left to determine then is whether or not BLI's newest release is "effective" and "successful". I think that is all that was meant by Crandell's use of the word, Sheldon; one that I've always took as "wildly successful" - i.e. whether I buy one myself or not. Please quit looking for a hockey game every time you go to a fight... Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRALBlockbuster? What's that? You think "everyone" wil buy one?
My goodness, Sheldon. Do you wait up in a tree for someone to make a statement/express a thought so that you can then jump all over it and tell everyone why you won't buy one...or what you would end up removing from it, if you did?
Here's the term, according to Merriam-Webster:
blockbuster (bläk-ˌbəs-tər) n. 2. one that is notably expensive, effective, successful, large, or extravagant - e.g. a blockbuster movie
So, by sheer definition of the word, the term blockbuster as "notably expensive...large, or extravagant" - even before a single person has purchased one - accurately describes the BLI Q2. All that's left to determine then is whether or not BLI's newest release is "effective" and "successful". I think that is all that was meant by Crandell's use of the word, Sheldon; one that I've always took as "wildly successful" - i.e. whether I buy one myself or not.
Please quit looking for a hockey game every time you go to a fight...
I need not respond, Andre covered every point I was leading to, except one - I will continue to lobby for non sound/non DCC versions from ALL manufacturers.
I guess what I am saying is that there are already at least 3 companies (Bachmann Spectrum, MTH, and Broadway) making Mikados, which is fine, considering it was such a widely used loco, but so far Broadway is the only company to step up to the plate and make the Pennsy J1a. I am not demanding at all that more companies should produce J1a's or Q2's, I'm simply saying that it is a pleasant surprise that at least one company does, and as a Pennsy fan, I welcome Broadway for satisfying this segment of modelers.
I'm not saying that large locomotives should in any way dominate the hobby, but its nice that at least some exist at somewhat affordable prices, and these are ready to run, as they should be.
Lets face it, the PRR was an amazing railroad and its here to stay, at least in HO scale !
That being said, it would be great to see some Atlantics and more Consolidations. Why can't we have the best of both worlds? We can still be modelers and collectors at the same time. The two terms shouldn't be contradictory. Lets all work together in communicating with the manufacturers and appreciate each others interests at the same time.
Eddie_walters Well... my understanding is that one of BLI's best selling models was the T1 duplex. So I don't think it should be a surprise that they might look at the Q2! It's what a friend of mine refers to as the "Lionel Factor" - that certain locos are just so interesting and outside the norm that "people just have to have them". Now, on the other hand, given that the I1sa (which is not an enormous loco, and is rather mundane as far as looks go) was a roaring success (sold out within a couple of weeks), I think BLI might be more willing to make some locos for the operators rather than collectors.
Well... my understanding is that one of BLI's best selling models was the T1 duplex. So I don't think it should be a surprise that they might look at the Q2! It's what a friend of mine refers to as the "Lionel Factor" - that certain locos are just so interesting and outside the norm that "people just have to have them".
Now, on the other hand, given that the I1sa (which is not an enormous loco, and is rather mundane as far as looks go) was a roaring success (sold out within a couple of weeks), I think BLI might be more willing to make some locos for the operators rather than collectors.
The I1sa was a great model for PRR modelers for sure and is coming out again soon. It does seem that the PRR model locomotives always seem to be at the top of the list for most manufacturers, but that is good for many of us who model the PRR. The Q2 like the T1 should be a great seller also. I already have it in brass but did purchase one of the BLI Q2's since sound is included and it is a brass model.
I have to believe that any brass model done well with sound at this price is a bargain. Yes, I would like for BLI to make the G5, E6 and L1 also. They seem to be doing a lot of PRR and those might be on the future lists.
As for the NP locomotives that have been mentioned, Sunset just came out with the Z6 with QSI sound and it is very nice for less than one half of the price of last year's Z8 without sound by DVP.
selector I looks super! I can see a red wire behind the headlamp, so that will have to be taken care of. But it looks super. Not sure about the whistle. -Crandell
I looks super! I can see a red wire behind the headlamp, so that will have to be taken care of. But it looks super. Not sure about the whistle.
The whistle is pure PRR. My Q2 is on its way to the dealer. I did notice the BLI 4-12-2 has been moved to the TBD on the schedule. That is not good.
Have to face the fact that those of us who know there have been more versions of some of these huge locos made than actually existed (or even CARE for that matter) are NOT the majority in this hobby. If this were not true, then these companies would either not keep making the oddballs, giants, and one-offs or they would be out of business. Obviously enough people buy these that they keep on makign them.
Once in a while they do something useful - the Reading T1 isn't exactly a small engine, but it alo had a huge career on both the Reading and PRR, then on the Ramble excursions, Chessie STeam Special, AMerican Freedom Train, and then excurions in the 80's. Depending on era modeled, pretty much anyone doing a railroad east of the Mississippi could justify one of the variations. This si what we want more of, time will tell if we get it or just more of the oddballs. I'm not hodling my breath.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
andrechapelon I have heard that one of the issues they've had in the past is that people expect smaller locos to be proportionally cheaper than their larger counterparts ..... Well, people need to get their expectations in line with reality. There are N scale brass locos out there that are beginning to approach $1000 a pop. The material is not where the cost is, it's the engineering and design coupled with the estimated number that can be sold. If people expect smaller locos to be proportionately cheaper, surgical removals of heads from the place where the sun don't shine may be necessary. Andre
I have heard that one of the issues they've had in the past is that people expect smaller locos to be proportionally cheaper than their larger counterparts .....
Well, people need to get their expectations in line with reality. There are N scale brass locos out there that are beginning to approach $1000 a pop. The material is not where the cost is, it's the engineering and design coupled with the estimated number that can be sold.
If people expect smaller locos to be proportionately cheaper, surgical removals of heads from the place where the sun don't shine may be necessary.
I'm finding a lot of excuses---er---reasons for going large sized but the one about smaller sized locomotives being proportionally cheaper is new to me. Where did this one come from? Besides the question of tooling and etc. there really has been no one that I talked with even suggesting this.
Those who want a smaller locomotive to run the branchlines, yards switching et cetera are STILL part of the MR hobby market. Even if that market wants to ignore it----
The operative word has to be "successful", otherwise the expense and extravagance mean nothing other than a waste of time, effort and money.
Personally, I'm hoping that the Q2 is about as successful as the movie "Ishtar" which was notably expensive and extravagant and a total flop. Maybe BLI and MTH need a couple of expensive flops to get the message.
To quote a line from an old MASH episode "We want something else!! We want something else!!
Hmm. Maybe we should be banging Army mess kits while we're yelling that.
andrechapelon Pennsy had 574 L1 2-8-2's vs. 125 J1's. The Mikes could go places where the 2-10-4's couldn't. A 2-8-2 is a much more layout friendly engine. In any case, the J1 was a Pennsyfied copy of the C&O T-1. If it was one of the more successful coal haulers, it was no thanks to Pennsy engineering. The design kudos should go to the Advisory Mechanical Committee (or perhaps more correctly to A.G. Trumbull) of the Van Sweringen roads (NKP, C&O, etc.). Models of large engines are not rare in the hobby. It's small to medium sized engines that are rare. That's part of what everyone's complaining about. I might have moaned if BLI had done a Pennsy H8/9/10 simply because it's just another Pennsy engine, but at least such an engine wouldn't overwhelm a layout and Pennsy did have something like 1500 examples of the 3 classes. Were I a Pennsy fan, an H8/9/10 would be a much more useful engine than a 2-10-4 or a 4-4-6-4.
Pennsy had 574 L1 2-8-2's vs. 125 J1's. The Mikes could go places where the 2-10-4's couldn't. A 2-8-2 is a much more layout friendly engine. In any case, the J1 was a Pennsyfied copy of the C&O T-1. If it was one of the more successful coal haulers, it was no thanks to Pennsy engineering. The design kudos should go to the Advisory Mechanical Committee (or perhaps more correctly to A.G. Trumbull) of the Van Sweringen roads (NKP, C&O, etc.).
Models of large engines are not rare in the hobby. It's small to medium sized engines that are rare. That's part of what everyone's complaining about. I might have moaned if BLI had done a Pennsy H8/9/10 simply because it's just another Pennsy engine, but at least such an engine wouldn't overwhelm a layout and Pennsy did have something like 1500 examples of the 3 classes. Were I a Pennsy fan, an H8/9/10 would be a much more useful engine than a 2-10-4 or a 4-4-6-4.
I am wondering why we are ending up with the same large locomotives as well. I know about the idea that they sell. I also know that there is a market for them. I also know, though, that there is an underground market for those "plebian" small engines that did the switching and the branchline duties all over North America.
It looks more like there may have to be a split market--much like the split from the "toy train" market from the more craftsman model HO scale.
I have heard that one of the issues they've had in the past is that people expect smaller locos to be proportionally cheaper than their larger counterparts - it just isn't so, because they have approximately the same number of parts and complexity, and that's what is the deciding factor on price, not raw materials, which may be a buck or two different between a 2-10-0 and an 0-6-0.
rjake4454 If you think about it models like the Q2, J1 and T1 are quite rare in the hobby, I certainly don't think they have been overdone like the Big Boys. If anthing the PRR J1a is under represented in the market, despite the fact that it was one of the best performing coal haulers of all time. Excluding brass, only one company makes the J1a, and after the first run, its impossible to track these down now. They are all sold out. The J1 can't in any way be compared to something like the S1 which was an absolute failure (despite being one of my favorite art deco locos), apples and oranges. I do agree though that we need some Atlantics.
If you think about it models like the Q2, J1 and T1 are quite rare in the hobby, I certainly don't think they have been overdone like the Big Boys. If anthing the PRR J1a is under represented in the market, despite the fact that it was one of the best performing coal haulers of all time. Excluding brass, only one company makes the J1a, and after the first run, its impossible to track these down now. They are all sold out.
The J1 can't in any way be compared to something like the S1 which was an absolute failure (despite being one of my favorite art deco locos), apples and oranges.
I do agree though that we need some Atlantics.
That's not the point. The point is that LARGE engines are represented far out of proportion to their actual numbers. Not only that, there's often more than one manufacturer doing the same engine (Van Sweringen Berkshires, the thrice accursed Big Boy and the N&W J come to mind right off the top of my head).
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
But since I model B&O, C&O, WM and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL, I would go for all of your hopeful choices. I still say the market research that keeps giving us PRR and UP is seriously flawed.
It goes even farther than an obsession with the PRR and UP. It's an obsession with the big engines of each. We have Big Boys coming out the wazoo, but where are the Harriman Consolidations, Pacfics and Mikes? You can get a Pennsy Q2, T1 or J1, but where are the H8's, L1's or G5's?
Anybody wanna bet if MTH or BLI ever do a Northern Pacific steam locomotive it will either be a Z-5 2-8-8-4 or one of the 4-6-6-4's of classes Z-6/7/8?
I used to collect several road names. Now I pretty much stick to PRR. What can I say, its where I grew up. I will always love the Pennsylvania Railroad.
DigitalGriffin ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm sure its very nice, but only 3 out of the 30 or so modelers I hang with are PRR modelers, and I bet only one of them buys one. Oh I don't know. I'm strictly C&O, and I'm even tempted to buy one. A beautiful engine is a beautiful engine. *still has fingers cross for a B&O EM-1, 0-4-0 docksider (A good one) along with C&O H-7 and 4-8-4 someday*
ATLANTIC CENTRALI'm sure its very nice, but only 3 out of the 30 or so modelers I hang with are PRR modelers, and I bet only one of them buys one.
Oh I don't know. I'm strictly C&O, and I'm even tempted to buy one. A beautiful engine is a beautiful engine.
*still has fingers cross for a B&O EM-1, 0-4-0 docksider (A good one) along with C&O H-7 and 4-8-4 someday*
I understand, but personally I'm not a collector (neither are most of my friends), I don't have any shelf queens or stuff with no purpose on the layout. No GG1's, K4's, GS4's, BigBoy's, Triplex's, FEF's, Challengers, N&W "J"'s, etc, etc.
rjake4454 A short video of it is up on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bj4yAR9It0
A short video of it is up on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bj4yAR9It0
Hmmm.. The chuff goes in and out of sync, but the wheels do not. Fascinating.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27