TrainsRMe1 Hi All, I have a quick question for you, I'm going to install drywall in my garage/trainroom soon,, there is some insulation that is installed on the wall before you put up your drywall. Is it called vapor backing? or something like that? Thanks for the help Trainsrme1
Hi All,
I have a quick question for you, I'm going to install drywall in my garage/trainroom soon,, there is some insulation that is installed on the wall before you put up your drywall. Is it called vapor backing? or something like that? Thanks for the help
Trainsrme1
Okay, Here is the deal. First let me tell you my background so you know where my advice is coming from. My father and grandfather were drywallers. My uncle is a drywaller. I have done a lot of drywall installation in my time. I have done a lot of drywall installation in the Portland area too. As a matter of fact my uncle lives up there in the Portland area.
My advice: If you already have your exterior walls up in your garage (and I think you do) then you do not need a vapor barrier, there should already be one between your studs and your outer wall paneling. For sure you will desire insulation so go down to the HoPo (Home Depot) and ask for the kind you will need. Hopefully you find that one person that actually knows what he is talking about. The insulation will stay up between the studs enough so that you can apply the drywall. Yes, you can get the kind that has the paper backing but it doesn't matter. Once your drywall is installed then make sure you apply the needed mud and tape to do the job. Don't short yourself on this step. One coat is NOT enough. And don't forget about sanding. Sanding is the best way to make it all look good. Before you know it you'll be ready to lay track!
Good luck and please feel free to ask me any other questions on this subject if you need to. Drywall runs in my blood, sadly.
--Zak Gardner
My Layout Blog: http://mrl369dude.blogspot.com
http://zgardner18.rrpicturearchives.net
VIEW SLIDE SHOW: CLICK ON PHOTO BELOW
ATLANTIC CENTRALWe completely restored it inside and out - not remodeled - restored. We have most of the orginal plaster walls and woodwork on the interior, and while the exterior required lots of work, nothing you see in that picture is vinyl siding. It is all wood and other materials that look and feel like wood to maintain the traditional details of the orginal construction. It took aprox. 3-1/2 years to complete the restoration. I planned and supervised the whole project and did about half the work myself.
Sheldon:
I would like to say that seeing that house and how you worked it back to shape has made me think a lot more of what could be done with an older home. My parents had done a couple of older homes around Woodstock ON when they were alive and now this!! Love it!!
Audrey is now saying----oh geee---why can't we------
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
selector Good for you for tackling that project, Sheldon. It must be a source of great pride and satisfaction to have planned and executed so much of it yourself. Is it largely unique in the area/town, or are there others needing/getting the same treatment? -Crandell
Good for you for tackling that project, Sheldon. It must be a source of great pride and satisfaction to have planned and executed so much of it yourself.
Is it largely unique in the area/town, or are there others needing/getting the same treatment?
-Crandell
Thank you, yes my wife and I are very pleased with what we have acomplished here and it has been great fun both doing the restoration and living in a house like this.
We are in the "village" of Forest Hill, MD, once a stop on the Ma & Pa. There are about 50 other homes of similar age and styles, some carefully restored like ours, other just reasonably "maintained". Ours is one of the two or three largest and most elaborate, and while not the oldest, it does date in the older half.
Restoring houses is actually a big part of what I do for a living. As a Residential Designer and Restoration Consultant I help others plan and carry out projects similar to ours. After designing and planning these projects, some clients retain me as their project manager and I do some very specialized hands on work such as restoring doors and windows.
While great lengths were taken to maintain the Historic and Architectural details and character, the plumbing, electric, heat, A/C, etc, in the house is all new.
Sheldon
wholemanSheldon, your house looks like it should belong on a cover of a magazine. How long have you lived there?
We have lived here for 15 years. It did not look like this when we bought it, but how it looks now is very close to how it looked when it was built in 1901.
We completely restored it inside and out - not remodeled - restored. We have most of the orginal plaster walls and woodwork on the interior, and while the exterior required lots of work, nothing you see in that picture is vinyl siding. It is all wood and other materials that look and feel like wood to maintain the traditional details of the orginal construction. It took aprox. 3-1/2 years to complete the restoration. I planned and supervised the whole project and did about half the work myself.
The house was featured on an episode of the HGTV show Restore America in 2003 and in 1999 we recieved a Historic Preservation Award from our local Historic Commission.
The Ma & Pa Railroad use to run right behind the house and the local station only a block away is now a model train shop.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BATMAN Beautiful house Where's the train room? If you look closely at the picture you can see part of the garage to the left. The garage has a 40' x 22' second floor that is heated and cooled - that is the train room. Sheldon
BATMAN Beautiful house Where's the train room?
If you look closely at the picture you can see part of the garage to the left. The garage has a 40' x 22' second floor that is heated and cooled - that is the train room.
Sheldon, your house looks like it should belong on a cover of a magazine. How long have you lived there?
Will
ATLANTIC CENTRAL
Beautiful house Where's the train room?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The moral of the story is,...different applications for different conditions, and the codes specify what those applications must be in order to pass inspection. Note, in the link below, well down the page, that there are two problems for which to use vapour barriers, and the inner basement wall face leakage problem is many times the greater threat than is the threat of molds and rot from inner diffuse sources of moisture. At least, it is the case on prairie gumbo in Manitoba, and it is the case in gravel and sand that gets lots of winter rain here in BC.
In Saskatchewan, where we had a house built for us, and because of the same harsh conditions and high water table around the necessary basements, insulation and vapour barrier installations were both important and highly demanding of meticulous attention to details. Where penetrated and seamed, there had to be sealant applied.
http://www.hydro.mb.ca/your_home/home_insulation_tips.shtml
As with most government regulations, building codes are chock full of good intentions, but often contradict themselves. The first thing to understand is the purpose of the vapor barrier. It is not to hold back floods, or to allow you to fill up your basement with salt water to have a beach party. It is to catch the humidity that naturally occurs in heated air as that air does it's best to escape from the house.
The reason you want to catch that humidity is because once it gets into your otherwise un-backed insulation, it can become trapped and build up, rendering the insulation less effective, and potentially leading to mold growth.
The kraft paper backing on fiberglass insulation IS a vapor barrier. Read the label. It's right there. The vapor barrier does NOT have to go over the studs, because the studs will not soak up the small amounts of humidity the way the soft fluffy itchy stuff will. (Think of it this way... when you make a cup of tea, the water soaks the teabag, but it doesn't dissolve the spoon.)
You'll notice that in the home improvement shows they usually use the plastic vapor barrier to cover up UNFACED or blown insulation. Again, the barrier has little to do with holding anything back from going into the wall as it is to protect the insulation material from getting soaked over time.
Obviously water vapor can get into the wood, but when you installed the stud, it probably had about a 5 to 10% moisture content in it to begin with. Wood is porous, and these things happen.
The regulations that require plastic surrounds for outlet boxes are more to prevent drafts from coming through the wall than to affect the usefulness of the vapor barrier.
Personally, I live in a 100+ year old house with blown insulation that was installed probably 40 years ago. In the rooms I've renovated, I've used kraft faced fiberglass, with no extraordinary measures, like caulking every little joint or sealing up a room like a mausoleum. I'm old school, and I'd rather have some fresh air circulating through the house naturally than have to rely on an electric fan to keep myself from asphyxiating on my own CO2. I've often wondereed how much energy you're really saving if you seal up a house so tight that you HAVE to run the air conditioner all time...
Anyway, to answer your question, don't put up two vapor barriers, because one of them won't work 100% and you'll end up trapping moisture between them, and that will lead to bigger problems as that moisture condenses and runs down the wall...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Lots of the posters are saying to check with a contractor or building code. If you pull a building permit, at least in my area, the work with have to pass inspections so a little knowledge ahead of time can save all kinds of grief. I have a contractor coming next week to do my basement. There is already 2 inches of pink "Formular" against the poured wall which was already sealed. He is going to build a stud wall out from that, put a vapor barrier against the studs and then build the finished wall. Interesting thing here is that the interior wiring has to be a certain color - yellow - along with a GFI and 20 amp receptacles. So my advice, get a permit, check the local codes and have it inspected.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
Useful information from the government on insulation and moisture control: (Who would have thought the government would actually be useful?) :-P
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11220
When I did my basement, I sealed the walls with drylok. I then sealed any cracks in the basement floor, and covered it with epoxy based paint (garage floor paint). I then covered the cinderblock walls with 2" pink Owens-Corning insulation board (Available at home depot.) It's about half the price blue extruded foam board. I then sealed the seams with house wrap tape. And sealed the bottom with a vapor barrier + house wrap tape. (To keep moisture from escaping out the bottom) I then put up 2x4 walls with pressure treated lumber for a footer and a 1/2" gap between the foamboard and wall. I then covered the 2x4 walls with moisture resistant gypsum board.
Foamboard is a lot more expensive than fiberglass. However it does not support mold growth. And it's R value does not change if it gets wet. And if it does get wet, it doesn't hold water well. So it doesn't have to be ripped out like fiberglass would.
Please note that national building code requires that blue foamboard be isolated with 1 hour rated firewall because the fumes are toxic when it burns!
Over all it took about about 6 1/2" from each wall. But it will be dry and mold free for a long time to come.
Total cost for a 32x32 basement using foamboard will be roughly $2500->$3000 (including exterior 2x4 walls) if you do it yourself.
If you want to use fiber glass + a vapor barrior, I recommend wall -> 1/2" gap -> vapor barrier glued & taped to backside of 2x4 studs (you can staple it if you seal around the staples) -> fiberglass batts between studs -> drywall.
The 1/2" gap is critical to let the moisture from the basement wall, breath, so it doesn't build up.
Don't forget you get tax credits for buying foamboard! I think it's up to 1/3rd back of materials/labor.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
A little more info. The current IBC call for vapor barriers in only about 1/2 of the US. The Southeast and lower Southwest have no vapor barrier requirment. And even here in Maryland, we are in one of the zones exempted from the vapor barrier requirement.
And, careful note is made about proper venting and construction to prevent mold or moisture deterioration from building too tightly.
oo-OO-OO-oo Not to muddy the waters further, but when I was doing architectural drafting work in SE Pa. in the 80s and 90s, garages were required to be drywalled with firecode X gypsum board. At first it was just the ceilings, then all walls It wouldn't matter to you, a train layout's not likely to burst into flames (with one noteable exception), but the next owner of the house might want to put a car in the garage Again, check your local building codes to see what's required Eric
Not to muddy the waters further, but when I was doing architectural drafting work in SE Pa. in the 80s and 90s, garages were required to be drywalled with firecode X gypsum board.
At first it was just the ceilings, then all walls
It wouldn't matter to you, a train layout's not likely to burst into flames (with one noteable exception), but the next owner of the house might want to put a car in the garage
Again, check your local building codes to see what's required
Eric
Again, codes vary. The current IRC (International Residential Code), used by many jurisdictions, requires attached garages to have 5/8" fire rated drywall on the ceiling only if there is living space above the garage. Side walls and common attic spaces require only 1/2" drywall. Walls not ajoining the dwelling may or may not covered.
Many local codes do have additonal requirements above this.
I wish I was a headlight
On a northbound train
DouglasJMeyer As said elsewhere the problem with plastic (well poly) is that it is not a perfect barier either as the screws and such cut into it and thus vapor and get past it. The other real big issue, that a lot of folks in the industry are beginning to worry about is that any vapor that gets past the gyp bd will sit on the poly and may lead to mold on the back of the gyp bd paper. So thier are currently plusses and minuses to the whole converstation. I did not need a poly barrier in my state when I built a few years ago and I choose not to due to the mold issue, so to each thier own depending on what the local codes allow. Doug M
As said elsewhere the problem with plastic (well poly) is that it is not a perfect barier either as the screws and such cut into it and thus vapor and get past it. The other real big issue, that a lot of folks in the industry are beginning to worry about is that any vapor that gets past the gyp bd will sit on the poly and may lead to mold on the back of the gyp bd paper. So thier are currently plusses and minuses to the whole converstation. I did not need a poly barrier in my state when I built a few years ago and I choose not to due to the mold issue, so to each thier own depending on what the local codes allow.
Doug M
Doug is right on spot. Codes vary acording to climate and needs. There is no one right answer or best answer without knowing more
To all our dear friends in Canada, the US is made of 50 states, with local county and city governments who regulate these issues as is best for their area, again, there is no one answer.
Building too tighly IS THE CAUSE of toxic mold problems and is being reconsidered by many in the building industry. Including the use of vapor barriers beyond the craft paper on fiberglass insulation.
In any case, the best drywall is the new paperless kind. In place of paper it is coated with a fiberglass cloth set in an elastomeric coating on both sides. This coating IS a vapor barrier and is present on the living space side where it is more effective.
For decades old house restoration professionals and DIY's have used a product called Nu-Wal to repair and resurface plaster walls. It is an elastomeric paint which is used to adhere a 4 mil fiberglass cloth to the finish side of a plaster or drywall wall. It strenghtens the wall and creates a vapor barrier on the living space side where that concept works the best. Learn more at www.nu-wal.com
My 1901 Queen Anne home has had this product applied to virtually every wall, greatly improving the effectiveness of the insulation and dramaticly reducing heating and cooling costs. This is the house:
In many climates vapor barriers are not needed, and in some climates they are a bad idea, and in some other situations, yes/no makes little difference.
And, for what it's worth, I too am a residential designer and historic restortation consultant.
A lot of folks use the 'tabs' on the kraft faced insulation stapled to the studs as the vapor barrier. The problem is that not every cavity will be 16" OC. From my construction experience, just buy the cheaper 16" un-faced battens, and use poly - You know you have a good vapor barrier then. Or watch 'Holmes on Homes' on TV - He finds these 'el cheapo' solutions and show the problems that result from this type of construction. Having to tear out a wall in a room is bad enough. Having to remove the layout because of a bad construction decision is even worse!
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I don't know much about Canadian building codes, except for what I see on Holmes on Homes, but here in NY the Kraft paper or foil on the insulation "is the vapor barrier" and is overlapped and stapled to the face of the studs. No other vapor barrier is needed. If you use unfaced fibreglass insulation then a 4 or 6 mil polyethylene shield is stapled to the studs before sheetrocking.
Contractors staple the edges of the fiberglass insulation to the studs, and then use drywall screws or nails to fasten the drywall; but I don't think the edges of the battens are part of the vapor barrier.
If you can't penetrate the vapor barrier with "screws" how do you attach the drywall to the studs????? is there some new method of applying drywall to studs now?????
mononguy63 (like with those things you use to hold the drywall up, I think they're called "screws")
retsignalmtr One of the posters to this topic stated that the fibreglass insulation is backed by paper and then a vapor barrier is then put up over this. That paper is "the vapor barrier" and it would be improper to add another vapor barrier over it.
One of the posters to this topic stated that the fibreglass insulation is backed by paper and then a vapor barrier is then put up over this. That paper is "the vapor barrier" and it would be improper to add another vapor barrier over it.
The paper backing acts as a retentive spine for the batten. It does not constitute a vapour barrier because you have 1.75" of wood in the form of studs between each such batten. The wood is not vapour proof, as anyone who has had to deal with the changes in dimensional lumber on a layout knows. So, in Canada, at least, poly vapour barrier is very much required over any type of batten placed between the studs. Note that this is for living space, and may not be required by local codes for a garage or out-building in which animals or humans are not residing for part of the day.
There may be some conflicting information here. The basics are to put the insulation between the studs(with or without the kraft paper backing), and then do the entire wall with 'poly'. Local codes may require you to purchase/install special seals around electrucal boxes). The kraft paper backing is not a complete seal for vapor protection. You can then hang your drywall. As mentioned, check with you local building inspector about wdhat is 'code' in your area. When I did my basement and garage, there was no 'seal' code with electrical boxes. I did seal them up with duck tape after cutting out the poly at the boxes before I hung the sheetrock.
As long as you are at it, make sure you insulate/sheetrock the ceiling as well(most of the 'layout dust' seems to come from that area. My layout is not in the garage, but I did a full insulate/sheetrock of my 2 car attached garage. I later added gas heat so I fhave a nice warm work area in the winter. In the basement, I used 3" foam between the studs and them applied the poly and sheetrock. Of course, I live in Minnesota...
If your town doesn't have codes, check with a local contractor or building supply representative. Unless coded otherwize I would use the fiberglass insulation as it is cheaper than the foam type. It comes with two types of facing, brown paper and foil. In a garage, where you do not have a living space with cooking, showers, etc, the paper backing should do just fine.
Good luck,
Not to muddy the waters, but there's been some controversy in the construction industry (I design buildings in order to support my train habit) about vapor barriers. In fact, we call them "vapor retarders" now. They're effective so long as you don't puncture them (like with those things you use to hold the drywall up, I think they're called "screws"). Then also, the barrier is in contact with the drywall, so any water that does get between the two can't evaporate off and you suddenly have an environment conducive for mold growth.
So find a local code official, or a builder, to find your wall construction requirements.
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
I would like to add to Crandell that all electrical junction boxes mounted on exterior walls are not allowed to break the vapour barrier, here in Ontario, check you building codes. In such a case specific plastic devices are made into which the boxes are installed. Consult your local building codes before installing the drywall. Also, to prevent surge currents designate receptacle circuits for your layout. If, for example the garage opener is on the same circuit as the layout power packs, voltage spikes can occur when the garage opener is activated. The garage opener, upon starting will draw a large current for a very short period of time which in turn creates a voltage spike which could damage voltage sensitive equipment.
Hope it helps,
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
The pink insulation foam (it can be beige, too) comes in paper-backed battens that are generally sliced to fit between the frame uprights. They are then covered with a poly sheeting of a certain weight (check your local codes). Over the plastic sheeting, which is your vapour barrier, you place the drywall sheets.
Yes it's called a "Vapor Barrier" typically a heavy gauged plastic that comes in rolls and the seams are sealed with tape. if your garage is subject to moisture you may want to consider mold resistant sheet rock.
In our township its required my code for any new construction or up grade of anything below grade. It's a little more pricey then standard rock but it's well worth it if there is even the slightest hint of a moisture problem. Another thing a lot of guys around here use for insulation is believe it or not that pink extruded foam, yes it wasn't really designed for model railroad scenery believe it or not also if your floor is not finished in the garage look into a sub floor system, they sell them in Lowes in 4x4 panels they have rubber backing on them and the top side isOSB. I am kicking myself for not doing it. We did my neighbors basement last year and you can not believe the difference, your feet will thank you.